Retro POY '92-93 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 best player seasons of '92-93. Some pointers:

-Change in schedule. We will now operate by splitting the week into thirds: Mon-Wed, Wed-Fri, Fri-Mon. I will label each thread with it's deadline.

-The voting panel is not officially closed. However, if you'd like to be a part of it, contact me - more dedicated, knowledgeable voters will always be wanted.

-This includes both regular and post-season. You should be weighing both in to some degree, and should not be ranking one star over another just because of how far each got in the playoffs.

-Vote sincerely. Do not move a player down in your voting to give another player an advantage. I would encourage every voter to give some explanations while they do their voting - but particularly if you have a top 5 that deviates strongly with the norm and you haven't expressed your thoughts on it earlier in the thread. If I'm not satisfied, I may ask you for more of an explanation - and it may come to actually booting people out of the project.

Some things to start us off:

Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1993.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1993.html
Award Voting http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... _1993.html

Topics for '92-93

-Bulls first 3-peat
-Barkley to Phoenix
-Hakeem the phoenix

[sp6r=underrated]

I want thoughts on Barkley vs Hakeem this year.

[CellarDoor]

I want thoughts on possible 4/5 options. Ugh.

[sp6r=underrated]

Also, is anyone going to consider Malone/Stockton this year. If so, what is your explanation for the 93 jazz? They came into the season with very high expectations after their run to the WCF. Malone that year turned in the best post-season of his career. In 93, Utah struggled to 47 wins and was bounced in the first round.

[kaima]

This is actually the Dream Team season.

Some guys seemed to excel under this, while others floundered.

Barkley definitely, along with or because of the trade to Phoenix, used his awesome international play as springboard into this season. Could be argued that Barkley played so well because of the lack of layoff.

That Jordan/Pippen played so well after coming off of a three-four deep playoff runs and summer play before the season is rather standout.

On the negative side, I thought Stockton and Malone looked tired after that summer. Some games they seemed to lose because of either physical or mental fatigue. Which is hard to believe, considering the reps these guys have. Worst season for them, team-wise, in the 90s.

Robinson shows up either a bit better or about the same when conflating the two seasons. He was mediocre to bad against Portland, but pretty damned decent against Phoenix in defeat.

Not a peak season. And, in a way, that's a good thing.

Ewing probably ranks. The Sonics were a very interesting team. Houston against Seattle is a matchup I might focus on. Phoenix-Seattle is a matchup I want to analyze out of the post. Maybe some Kemp/Malone.

[kaima]

Also, is anyone going to consider Malone/Stockton this year. If so, what is your explanation for the 93 jazz? They came into the season with very high expectations after their run to the WCF. Malone that year turned in the best post-season of his career. In 93, Utah struggled to 47 wins and was bounced in the first round.

I think Stockon and Malone had some wear. Probably mental.

The team was about the same as far as roster. Maybe a little worse.

And other teams got better. Utah management took another year to figure out that the roster had better improve, like, in any way.

Instead of people thinking that Utah was about to make a run, they should have been asking how they made the WCF with that roster in 92. Every play was either pick and roll or throw-it-down-to-Malone-while-the-rest-of-the-team-watches. I think also set a record in the three point era for fewest threes made in a CF. Bad roster.

At the same time, it is a bit vague as to why they faded in the way they did. Many issues into one? Seems likely.

[sp6r=underrated]

Kaima

Houston-Seattle
Game 7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMIGWwv- ... re=related

Bastillon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcSvf01p ... re=related
You will love this game if you haven't seen it.

[JordansBulls]

1992-1993

1. M.Jordan - Finals MVP, Led in Win Shares on the season and WS per 48 minutes, Led in Season PER. Led the league in scoring in the season and playoffs. Led in Win Shares per 48 minutes in the playoffs, Was 1st in Playoff PER, All NBA 1st Team And Defense, Led the league in Scoring and won title the same year. Set Finals PPG average.


2. Charles Barkley - Finished 1st in MVP Voting, 4th in PER and 4th in WS on the season and 1st in Win Shares in the playoffs. 1st Team All NBA.


3. Hakeem - Finished 2nd in MVP voting, 2nd in PER and 2nd in WS on the season. ALL NBA 1st Team and 1st team Defense. Finished 4th in WS in the playoffs and 2nd in PER

4. Patrick Ewing - Finished 4th in MVP voting, 2nd team All NBA, Led in Defensive Rating and Defensive Win Shares.


5. David Robinson - All NBA 3rd Team and All 2nd Defensive team. Finished 5th in MVP voting, and 4th in playoff WS.


HM: Dominique, Malone, Stockton


I'm debating on if Hakeem should be #2 though over Barkley.

[sp6r=underrated]

b-r FTW

[kaima]

Thanks for the vid.

Just started watching. Real quick thought is that Kemp, even with a slow start by Seattle, is impressive in the context of Karl's defensive schemes. He roams looking to create havoc or stop a play like a prime Scottie Pippen with a bit of a defensive 5 thrown in.

[semi-sentient]

What a great year. I think arguments can be made for Jordan, Hakeem, or Barkley at #1, with a solid battle at #4 and #5 between Robinson and Ewing. I left Karl in here just for HM purposes, but ultimately, I don't think he'll be making my top 5. Anyway, here are the candidates that I think are worth considering...

Regular Season

Code: Select all

Player    GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Jordan    78  39.3  32.6  .564  6.7   5.5  2.8  0.8  2.7  17.2  29.7
Barkley   76  37.6  25.6  .596  12.2  5.1  1.6  1.0  3.1  14.4  25.9
Hakeem    82  39.5  26.1  .577  13.0  3.5  1.8  4.2  3.2  15.8  27.3
D-Rob     82  39.2  23.4  .569  11.7  3.7  1.5  3.2  2.9  13.2  24.2
Ewing     81  37.1  24.2  .546  12.1  1.9  0.9  2.0  3.3  10.6  20.8
Malone    82  37.8  27.0  .612  11.2  3.8  1.5  1.0  2.9  15.4  26.2

Post Season

Code: Select all

Player    GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Jordan    19  41.2  35.1  .553  6.7   6.0  2.1  0.9  2.4  4.4   30.1
Barkley   24  42.8  26.6  .552  13.6  4.3  1.6  1.0  1.0  4.6   24.9
Hakeem    12  43.2  25.7  .568  14.0  4.8  1.8  4.9  3.8  2.4   26.7
D-Rob     10  42.1  23.1  .529  12.6  4.0  1.0  3.6  2.5  1.5   21.6
Ewing     15  40.3  25.5  .535  10.9  2.4  1.1  2.1  2.6  1.9   21.6
Malone    5   43.2  24.0  .528  10.4  2.0  1.2  0.4  4.0  0.4   16.6

Awards Recognition

Code: Select all

Player      MVP     DPOY   All-NBA   All-Defense
================================================
Jordan      3       2      1st       1st
Barkley     1       -      1st       ---
Hakeem      2       1      1st       1st
D-Rob       6       2      3rd       2nd
Ewing       4       5      2nd       ---
Malone      8       -      1st       ---

Without having done any deep research, my early rankings:

1. Michael Jordan
   
   
2. Hakeem Olajuwan
   
   
3. Charles Barkley
   
   
4. David Robinson
   
   
5. Patrick Ewing

[ronnymac2]

Hakeem has to be ahead of Sir Charles.

[Gongxi]

Jordan, Hakeem, and Barkley should be a near-consensus top 3, and I'll probably have them in that order.

[sp6r=underrated]

Hakeem has to be ahead of Sir Charles.

No he doesn't and it is far from revisionist history to rank Charles above Hakeem this year.

[Gongxi]

Amongst the Robinson, Malone, and Ewing group for 4/5, rookie Shaq should probably get some serious consideration. I think I'd tentatively have him over Malone.

[ronnymac2]

SP- In MVP voting, sure.

I remember in an ATL that I was in and you judged, I picked 94 and 95 Hakeem as a two year peak, and you correctly pointed out that Hakeem in 1993 was probably the best version of Hakeem. If you look at the stats, it's true. He was still rebounding well and playing like a top-2 defender ever. His offense had completely arrived.

What separates Hakeem in 93 from 94-95? Team success. Olajuwon in 93 was like Lebron in 2009. His team ran into the worst team matchup for them.

I mean, as players, was 93 Sir Charles better than Hakeem in 94 or 95? Because Hakeem in 93 is greater than or equal to 94 and 95 Hakeem as an individual.

[sp6r=underrated]

Amongst the Robinson, Malone, and Ewing group for 4/5, rookie Shaq should probably get some serious consideration. I think I'd tentatively have him over Malone.

It was discussed in the general thread, but it is amazing that Shaq had his best individual rebounding year, by a clear margin, as a rookie.

[sp6r=underrated]

SP- In MVP voting, sure.

I remember in an ATL that I was in and you judged, I picked 94 and 95 Hakeem as a two year peak, and you correctly pointed out that Hakeem in 1993 was probably the best version of Hakeem. If you look at the stats, it's true. He was still rebounding well and playing like a top-2 defender ever. His offense had completely arrived.

What separates Hakeem in 93 from 94-95? Team success. Olajuwon in 93 was like Lebron in 2009. His team ran into the worst team matchup for them.

I mean, as players, was 93 Sir Charles better than Hakeem in 94 or 95? Because Hakeem in 93 is greater than or equal to 94 and 95 Hakeem as an individual.

Look, I'm voting for Hakeem over Barkley this year as well, I just don't think it is objectively wrong to rank Barkley over Hakeem this year. The absolution in your statement is what caused my objection.

[ronnymac2]

^^^Well, hypothetically, if you were to argue Barkley>Dream, how would you go about it?

[kaima]

Amongst the Robinson, Malone, and Ewing group for 4/5, rookie Shaq should probably get some serious consideration. I think I'd tentatively have him over Malone.

I'm going to have trouble ranking Malone this season. But my reasons aren't necessarily comparable in the carry-over of standardizing vis a vis another poster.

My problem is Malone's post-season. Numbers dropped, though he still arguably gave Kemp more than he could take. Not a matchup loss, but less than impressive.

How does that hash versus a guy that misses the playoffs? Have to think about that, as I'm not big on team success as a decider in a big way.

At the same time, Malone was Malone in the regular season. He was better than Robinson in this season, and his advanced metrics underpin that. Robinson went farther in the playoffs, yet when Malone did this in 94, while stepping up his game, and directly shut down Robinson in a series win, many on here left Malone entirely off their lists.

Malone was also third in WS and PER for the season, ranking better than MVP Barkley in both categories. Easily ahead of both Robinson and Shaq.

By that/those standard(s) Malone should rank over Robinson. Probably Shaq as well. If people are being honest and consistent in their voting.

By my standards, it's going to be a real dogfight.