supaflash wrote:This thread is full of so much fail.
lame poster pulling up some minimal stats trying to prove a point but probably never watched any of the games he's trying to talk about.
Of course Shaq was ridiculously dominant, no one underestimates his prime, arguably the best prime of any player ever. Yes Kobe was obviously blessed to play with him, but so has any star that has won in this league. But don't forget, Shaq couldn't win with all that Orlando talent out east, and came in to a playoff Laker team and couldn't win anything either until Kobe became dominant. And he only won once after leaving Kobe when Wade was dominant.
OP also likes to bring up the few years of Kobe by himself, what did you expect when they blew up the team and brought in new coaches etc? Are you mentally handicapped? How often do new teams just rocket to the top? How often has any 6-8 seed won a first round series? Don't forget MJ lost for years before getting to the finals. In his 4 year span he won 1 series, and that was 'the shot', and got promptly beat down in the next series. He also got swept in his 37 ppg season (WHAT? Jordan would never allow a sweep!??) Basically Laker's get a rebound in that Phx series and its an identical run for Kobe...
As others have pointed out, in LA's 3-peat Kobe often had his best performances when the team needed him most and against the toughest opponents. The Kings and Blazers and Spurs were better then any of their finals opponents. Especially those series vs the Spurs with DR and Tim, Shaq struggled, especially in the 4th and Kobe took over the 4th again and again. LA got to the finals and continually faced teams that were so overmatched at C it was rediculous.
2000 - Shaq was just abusing an old worn out Rik Smits it was sad and their only backups were pathetic that they ended up putting PF Dale Davis on him a lot. Lost in Shaqs monster game 1 was Kobe who led the team in assists, limited his shots, and hounded Reggie into a 1-16 game, he was as key to game 1 as Shaq. Then he sprain his ankle pretty bad early in game 2 and LA barely rode Shaq to a win. Second game without Kobe... Shaq piled up the stats, but lost. Kobe comes back early, puts up a monster game and they take a commanding lead. Kobe had a horrid game 5, but had a very solid game 6 and LA won. Shaq definitely MVP, he was destructive, but Kobe had an underrated series.
2001 - Kobe dominates the Kings then Spurs including back to back 45-10 games to help the Lakers get to the finals. Game 1 Kobe didn't play that great but they continually fed Shaq to monster numbers 40-20 but he missed 12 fts, 11 shots and 4 TOs to the tune of 21 wasted possessions, (Kobe had 19) He also had no blocks and allowed Dikembe to produce a very efficient game. Monster numbers, overrated game, loss... They both picked it up the next game, Kobe in particular while also helping to limit AI severly in the second half to get the win. Again in game 2 they both dominate, but Shaq fouls out and Kobe out duals AI for win 2. Game 3 Kobe goes into facilitator mode and finishes an assist shy of a triple double while harassing the crap out of McKey and AI. Lakers win. Kobe and Shaq have equally nice games in the clincher and close it out despite many TOs and missed FTs by Shaq. Great series by both guys but Shaq got such monster numbers in the loss that he was inflated for the rest of the series. Despite Shaq's dominance, this series could have easily been Kobe's MVP.
2002 - Again Kobe rallies LA against the tough Spurs as Shaq struggles. Then against the Kings, both played near equally, each struggling in the losses and both starring in the wins. Then they face NJ in the finals that has no true center and Lakers sweep. Easy MVP for Shaq but Kobe played very well, excellent defense and efficient offensively.
2003 - Shaq injured and out of shape most of the year, Kobe carries team, Kobe dominates the Spurs, Shaq plays decent, just not enough as Spurs take the chip.
2004 - Kobe's low moment obviously, but not as bad as stats tell. Anyone who watched it saw an out of shape Shaq that was getting mostly single teamed by Ben Wallace and was mostly getting out played by him. He was slow on his rotations as Chauncy was ripping us apart on the pick and roll. He put up decent numbers a few times, but he energy and aggressiveness was not there. GP could do absolutely nothing that series, Fish was injured and sad, Malone was injured and couldn't do anything against Sheed, and Kobe was playing against a prime Prince backed by one of the better defenses in years. Kobe did an excellent job chasing and hounding Hamilton, and was trying to help on Chauncey as GP was just getting abused. He chucked and missed a lot, but his explosion in game 2 gave them their only win and the rest the whole team was just a mess. The whole team was bickering and choking and getting abused by the Pistons. Bad Kobe series, but bad team series also. A low point as a Kobe fan and a Laker fan...
2008 - Kobe dominated the first 3 rounds and the Lakers cruised but then ran into a defensive beast in Boston. Most of LA struggled, Pau and LO got roughed up inside, the SFs got roasted and the bench was frazzled under the pressure. He still put up back to back 30 pt nights and some high assist games, but struggled against that near illegal and overly physical Boston D (although he didn't struggle as bad as Bron or Wade did that year vs them) all while trying to chase Allen, switch to Rondo, and help with Pierce. Rough series for him and LA. Happens to the best of them (see Jordan vs Detroit..) No excuses, he improved and came back even better next year.
Eyes tell a whole different story then OP's little stat lines ever could. You can knock Kobe a lot, he's got flaws and had plenty of struggles, but you can't deny his overall career and post season play. Scoff at having Shaq for the first 3 chips, but he was 1B on that team and the only reason he was 1B was because of how dominant Shaq was then. Any other team and he's 1A. Definite advantage, but the talent drop after that was sharp. There were deeper teams all over the league, those two just beat them. Haters gonna hate no matter what though...
"OP also likes to bring up the few years of Kobe by himself, what did you expect when they blew up the team and brought in new coaches etc? Are you mentally handicapped? How often do new teams just rocket to the top? "
Well Lebron took his team of nobodies all the way to the NBA championship in 2007. Kobe should at least be able to take his team past the 1st round.
I am not arguing that Kobe sucks, he is great but he is very very overrated. On my all time list he would be near the bottom of the top 20 list. A number 15 to 18 all time ranking is not bad but it is far from what the media hypes about him.
