Retro POY '92-93 (Voting Complete)

[kaima]

^^^Well, hypothetically, if you were to argue Barkley>Dream, how would you go about it?

Perhaps matchup contexts. Look real closely and try to locate key numbers that led Phoenix to take out Seattle while Hakeem and the Rockets failed in this.

Barkley was a beast offensively that post-season, and Olajwuon's defense just might have done less to the Sonics than Barkley's offense.

This is not my stance, just a possibility.

[lorak]

Hakeem has to be ahead of Sir Charles.

No he doesn't and it is far from revisionist history to rank Charles above Hakeem this year.

Yeah, I even considering Barkley over Jordan.

[Dr Positivity]

One of the weirdest parts of the Rockets-Sonics series, looking over the boxscore: Hakeem shot 0 FTAs combined Houston's 3 wins. And these were all home games. How is that even possible, lol

[lorak]

At the same time, Malone was Malone in the regular season. He was better than Robinson in this season, and his advanced metrics underpin that. Robinson went farther in the playoffs, yet when Malone did this in 94, while stepping up his game, and directly shut down Robinson in a series win, many on here left Malone entirely off their lists.

Malone was also third in WS and PER for the season, ranking better than MVP Barkley in both categories. Easily ahead of both Robinson and Shaq.

By that/those standard(s) Malone should rank over Robinson. Probably Shaq as well. If people are being honest and consistent in their voting.

In 1994 Robinson’s advantage over Malone in RS was way bigger than Malone’s advantage in 1993 RS over Robinson. I’m not even sure if there’s any Malone’s advantage in 1993, because he was slightly better in advanced metrics (so mainly offense), but Robinson was still better defender. So overall they were equal in RS or even Robinson was better.

[kaima]

At the same time, Malone was Malone in the regular season. He was better than Robinson in this season, and his advanced metrics underpin that. Robinson went farther in the playoffs, yet when Malone did this in 94, while stepping up his game, and directly shut down Robinson in a series win, many on here left Malone entirely off their lists.

In 1994 Robinson’s advantage over Malone in RS was way bigger than Malone’s advantage in 1993 RS over Robinson.

And Malone kicked his ass in the playoffs.

That certainly didn't happen here in the inverse.

I’m not even sure if there’s any Malone’s advantage in 1993, because he was slightly better in advanced metrics (so mainly offense),

So when Robinson's better in these measurements, it means everything.

But when Malone is...it means next to nothing.

That's not exactly fair. Or honest.

It's quite the spectacle, how you've retroactively decided that something like PER is overrated. If that's how you really feel, then you'd better change your vote in the prior thread.

but Robinson was still better defender.

You mean in the same way as he was in the 94 playoffs?

I can find key series from Malone's playoff resume where his D turned a series. The funny thing is, the D-Rob examples are not as easy to find. Not when he was the peak or prime pre-Duncan main man.

How many times did a team led by a high-powered star scorer go easily through the Spurs, particularly relates to scoring? How many times did DRob stop one of those teams, particularly when they were led by a dominant post presence?

So overall they were equal in RS or even Robinson was better.

Are you a government accountant? Because that's some really fuzzy math you're working with.

If you vote for Robinson over Malone in this season, when considering your prior arguments for DRob in other threads, then you're simply making it up as you go along. You want to rank Robinson over Malone, so you'll find any reason to do so.

No matter how unreasonable when contrasted to your previous statements as to standard.

[ronnymac2]

One of the weirdest parts of the Rockets-Sonics series, looking over the boxscore: Hakeem shot 0 FTAs combined Houston's 3 wins. And these were all home games. How is that even possible, lol

I need to watch game 7 of that series. Looking at the boxscores, I have no clue why Houston lost the series. Shawn Kemp's numbers don't pop out at me. It's weird.

[JordansBulls]

What a great year. I think arguments can be made for Jordan, Hakeem, or Barkley at #1, with a solid battle at #4 and #5 between Robinson and Ewing. I left Karl in here just for HM purposes, but ultimately, I don't think he'll be making my top 5. Anyway, here are the candidates that I think are worth considering...

Regular Season

Code: Select all

Player    GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Jordan    78  39.3  32.6  .564  6.7   5.5  2.8  0.8  2.7  17.2  29.7
Barkley   76  37.6  25.6  .596  12.2  5.1  1.6  1.0  3.1  14.4  25.9
Hakeem    82  39.5  26.1  .577  13.0  3.5  1.8  4.2  3.2  15.8  27.3
D-Rob     82  39.2  23.4  .569  11.7  3.7  1.5  3.2  2.9  13.2  24.2
Ewing     81  37.1  24.2  .546  12.1  1.9  0.9  2.0  3.3  10.6  20.8
Malone    82  37.8  27.0  .612  11.2  3.8  1.5  1.0  2.9  15.4  26.2

Post Season

Code: Select all

Player    GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Jordan    19  41.2  35.1  .553  6.7   6.0  2.1  0.9  2.4  4.4   30.1
Barkley   24  42.8  26.6  .552  13.6  4.3  1.6  1.0  1.0  4.6   24.9
Hakeem    12  43.2  25.7  .568  14.0  4.8  1.8  4.9  3.8  2.4   26.7
D-Rob     10  42.1  23.1  .529  12.6  4.0  1.0  3.6  2.5  1.5   21.6
Ewing     15  40.3  25.5  .535  10.9  2.4  1.1  2.1  2.6  1.9   21.6
Malone    5   43.2  24.0  .528  10.4  2.0  1.2  0.4  4.0  0.4   16.6

Awards Recognition

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Player      MVP     DPOY   All-NBA   All-Defense
================================================
Jordan      3       2      1st       1st
Barkley     1       -      1st       ---
Hakeem      2       1      1st       1st
D-Rob       6       2      3rd       2nd
Ewing       4       5      2nd       ---
Malone      8       -      1st       ---

Without having done any deep research, my early rankings:

1. Hakeem Olajuwan
   
   
2. Michael Jordan
   
   
3. Charles Barkley
   
   
4. David Robinson
   
   
5. Patrick Ewing

Not sure how Hakeem is ahead of MJ here. Especially with MJ having over a 30+ PER in the playoffs and winning the title. In fact he averaged the most ppg in a season and playoffs of anyone in history that won a title that season and he broke the finals scoring ppg average as well and had 4 games in a row in the finals of 40+. Also we beat two teams that won 60+ games that season without having HCA. The only other time I can remember that happening is in 2006 and/or 1995, and both the players that did that were considered by most here the best player in the league those years.

MJ's Finals Stats
FINALS STATS
Points per game: 41.0
Boards per game: 8.5
Assists per game: 6.3
PER: 27.6


Barkley's Finals Stats
FINALS STATS
Points per game: 27.3
Boards per game: 13.0
Assists per game: 5.5
PER: 22.5


Not to mention both the Sonics and Rockets had the same record that year.

[Dr Positivity]

Yeah, with his playoff performance I'm definitely putting Jordan #1

[Dr Positivity]

SP- In MVP voting, sure.

I remember in an ATL that I was in and you judged, I picked 94 and 95 Hakeem as a two year peak, and you correctly pointed out that Hakeem in 1993 was probably the best version of Hakeem. If you look at the stats, it's true. He was still rebounding well and playing like a top-2 defender ever. His offense had completely arrived.

What separates Hakeem in 93 from 94-95? Team success. Olajuwon in 93 was like Lebron in 2009. His team ran into the worst team matchup for them.

I mean, as players, was 93 Sir Charles better than Hakeem in 94 or 95? Because Hakeem in 93 is greater than or equal to 94 and 95 Hakeem as an individual.

Well Hakeem in 94 and 95 dominated in the playoffs. 93 Hakeem followed the same path as most players - Pretty good, but a slight dip in comparison to regular season production due to harder defense. I think 93 Barkley in the RS was as good as 94 and 95 Hakeem in RS, actually superior to 95 Hakeem. And then he was pretty awesome in the playoffs to. Maybe not Hakeem level due to less defense, but he had some huge games. Like dropping 43/15/10 and 44/24 in crucial Game 5 and 7 wins against Seattle. If the Suns won that year those two statlines would've been legendary. In the San Antonio series he games of 35/10/7 stls, 36/12 and 28/21. In the Game 5 W against LA he had 31/14. So Barkley was pretty money most of the playoffs. I think I value Barkley's playoffs this year more than Hakeem's both from his impressive numbers and the fact that both teams played Seattle in long series and the Suns won while the Rockets lost... and the biggest difference in all liklihood was Barkley dropping those huge lines in Games 5 and 7. So I'm giving Barkley the edge for the PS here

[lorak]

So when Robinson's better in these measurements, it means everything.

No. I think you don’t realize how huge was Robinson’s advantage in 1994 according to these metrics.

Code: Select all

stat   DR   KM   differential
WS   20.0   13.4   +6.6
PER  30.7   22.9   +7.7

BTW, in PER it was 10th best season of ALL TIME. In WS it was 15th.

Now, in 1993 difference was much smaller:

Code: Select all

stat   DR   KM   diff
WS   13.2   15.4   +2.2
PER  24.2   26.2   +2.0


And of course in both of these seasons Robinson was better defender.

It's quite the spectacle, how you've retroactively decided that something like PER is overrated. If that's how you really feel, then you'd better change your vote in the prior thread.

PER is overrated when we evaluate inefficient scorers by that metrics. Neither Robinsn, nor Malone are inefficient scores, so PER tells us something. Besides I also looks at WS and mystibb’s stat post.

If you vote for Robinson over Malone in this season, when considering your prior arguments for DRob in other threads, then you're simply making it up as you go along. You want to rank Robinson over Malone, so you'll find any reason to do so.

You are wrong. My argument is completely reasonable because Malone’s advantage in 1993 was slightly; Robinson’s advantage in 1994 was huge, in fact three times as big as Malone’s in 1993. Add defense and Robinson’s advantage is even bigger.

[semi-sentient]

Not sure how Hakeem is ahead of MJ here.

For now it's just a preliminary ranking without looking too deeply into what each player did in the post-season -- although I see that Hakeem did have his best game in the finale of his series with the Sonics. I like Hakeem because the advantage he has on defense is greater than the advantage that Jordan has on offense, and Hakeem's numbers in the post-season were absolutely (Please Use More Appropriate Word) (26.7 pts, 14.0 reb, 4.8 ast, 1.8 stl, 4.9 blk).

Especially with MJ having over a 30+ PER in the playoffs and winning the title.

Those are all positives, but PER does not properly factor in defense and I don't vote based on PER anyway. Even winning a championship doesn't necessarily get a player over the hump if another player was comparably good (like when I voted for LeBron over Kobe in the 08-09 despite Kobe winning it all). I'll need to hear more arguments for or against Hakeem before I make any changes though.

MJ's Finals Stats
FINALS STATS
Points per game: 41.0
Boards per game: 8.5
Assists per game: 6.3
PER: 27.6

Barkley's Finals Stats
FINALS STATS
Points per game: 27.3
Boards per game: 13.0
Assists per game: 5.5
PER: 22.5

There's no question that I'll have MJ over Barkely at this point, and those are some epic numbers. It's worth noting that the Suns were an atrocious defensive team though, and that's regardless of their dRtg (which was top 10). I watched that series maybe a year ago and I remember it being a layup drill for both teams. After rewatching it I couldn't help but think how overrated Thunder Dan was as a defender, especially since he made an All-Defensive team that year. Some great offense, but neither side played any kind of defense. Not sure if that really makes much of a difference, but it's worth noting.

Was Barkley injured in that series?

[JordansBulls]

Those are all positives, but PER does not properly factor in defense and I don't vote based on PER anyway. Even winning a championship doesn't necessarily get a player over the hump if another player was comparably good (like when I voted for LeBron over Kobe in the 08-09 despite Kobe winning it all). I'll need to hear more arguments for or against Hakeem before I make any changes though.

Difference is, is that MJ had better all around numbers and produced more wins than Hakeem did in the season and playoffs and had a better ratio for WS/per 48 minutes.

MJ vs Barkley vs Hakeem
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y3=1993


Also the Sonics and Rockets were both 55-27 that year, so it is not like the Sonics were vastly superior.

MJ's Finals Stats
FINALS STATS
Points per game: 41.0
Boards per game: 8.5
Assists per game: 6.3
PER: 27.6

Barkley's Finals Stats
FINALS STATS
Points per game: 27.3
Boards per game: 13.0
Assists per game: 5.5
PER: 22.5

There's no question that I'll have MJ over Barkely at this point, and those are some epic numbers. It's worth noting that the Suns were an atrocious defensive team though, and that's regardless of their dRtg (which was top 10). I watched that series maybe a year ago and I remember it being a layup drill for both teams. After rewatching it I couldn't help but think how overrated Thunder Dan was as a defender, especially since he made an All-Defensive team that year. Some great offense, but neither side played any kind of defense. Not sure if that really makes much of a difference, but it's worth noting.

Was Barkley injured in that series?

It was high scoring because both teams were good on offense and the Bulls had got out of a defensive series with NY the series prior.

Besides he still set the finals scoring record at 41 ppg.

MJ 2nd in DPOY Voting - 1-22-1-32 Mark and voted #1 by coaches


People forget that in the Knicks series in the pivotal game 5, MJ scored points 73-90 for the Bulls. That was the game where the Knicks 28 game home winning streak was snapped. Also in game 6 of the finals MJ was the only Bull to score in the 4th until Paxson hit the 3.

Hakeem was good, but the fact the MJ averaged as much as he did in the season and then up it again to over 35 ppg in the playoffs while shooting ~ 50% and winning the title without HCA beating two teams that won 60+ games, puts the icing on the cake.

[kaima]

So when Robinson's better in these measurements, it means everything.

No. I think you don’t realize how huge was Robinson’s advantage in 1994 according to these metrics.

Code: Select all

stat   DR   KM   differential
WS   20.0   13.4   +6.6
PER  30.7   22.9   +7.7

BTW, in PER it was 10th best season of ALL TIME. In WS it was 15th.

And you ignored the huge shift in the playoffs.

And/or tried everything you could to excuse it.

If Robinson's regular season stats and play mean so much, then the crash he had against Malone logically is a huge deal as well. The fact that you don't even consider it, other than to dismiss it, is quite a questionable tactic.

Now, in 1993 difference was much smaller:

Code: Select all

stat   DR   KM   diff
WS   13.2   15.4   +2.2
PER  24.2   26.2   +2.0


And, likewise, there wasn't a matchup in the playoffs that had Robinson dominating Malone.

Whereas 94 saw Malone take 10 points off Robinson's average, and dump his PER down from 30+ to 22.

And of course in both of these seasons Robinson was better defender.

How are you measuring this? If Robinson's defense was such a huge factor in his favor, why did it disappear in post matchups so often? Why did so many teams score relatively easily on SA?

Even when he was teamed with a great man-defender and rebounder in Rodman this was the case.

It's quite the spectacle, how you've retroactively decided that something like PER is overrated. If that's how you really feel, then you'd better change your vote in the prior thread.

PER is overrated when we evaluate inefficient scorers by that metrics. Neither Robinsn, nor Malone are inefficient scores, so PER tells us something.

If it's not overrated, then Malone was better than Robinson in 93. If it is, then you voted falsely in the 94 thread.

Certainly, you ignored Robinson's playoff failures. As usual.

Besides I also looks at WS and mystibb’s stat post.

WS favor Malone as well.

If you vote for Robinson over Malone in this season, when considering your prior arguments for DRob in other threads, then you're simply making it up as you go along. You want to rank Robinson over Malone, so you'll find any reason to do so.

You are wrong. My argument is completely reasonable because Malone’s advantage in 1993 was slightly; Robinson’s advantage in 1994 was huge, in fact three times as big as Malone’s in 1993.

Again, if Robinson was so much better in 94, what of the playoffs? The fact that you ignored them means that you shouldn't use them in this argument.

And even if Malone is advantage in the regular season isn't as big, it's still enough to rank him over Robinson by your own underlying and expressed rubrics.

He was better in the regular season. Talking about how the ratio in 94 was bigger to the other side does not change that. All it is is an empty sideshow on your part.

Add defense and Robinson’s advantage is even bigger.

If Robinson's defense was so great, why could Malone score 29.25 against SA? If it meant more than Malone's defense, when comparing their skillsets, why did Robinson only average 20?

And why did this not matter to you at all in the other thread?

The very fact that it didn't, means that by default Malone was better in 93.

Again, by your standards. Or is the only standard how you want to rank Robinson over Malone season after season?

The Robinson homerism is rather bothersome, if not subversive.

[semi-sentient]

JB: Those are all good arguments for MJ, except him being 2nd in DPOY voting. He absolutely did not deserve more consideration than guys like Robinson (who he tied), Ewing, Rodman, etc., so in that respect, he was definitely overrated defensively. Just because he was tied for 2nd doesn't mean that he was comparable to Hakeem or Robinson defensively. I look at the awards to see which guys were being recognized, but I fully realize that the order has to be questioned at times.

[kaima]

One of the weirdest parts of the Rockets-Sonics series, looking over the boxscore: Hakeem shot 0 FTAs combined Houston's 3 wins. And these were all home games. How is that even possible, lol

I need to watch game 7 of that series. Looking at the boxscores, I have no clue why Houston lost the series. Shawn Kemp's numbers don't pop out at me. It's weird.

I thought Kemp really started to turn it with his defensive presence in the third quarter. It won't show up in the box score, but he was probably doing more to drive the Sonics at that point than Olajuwon was on the other side.

They really keyed off of him and his low post presence as a rim protector. Very strong. Great rotational defense.

[Baller 24]

Olajuwon was great, all the contract stuff and trade demands aside, a new coach in place, he decided to just work with what they had an utilize it to it's fullest extent. Solid season, I've got him at 2 right now with Jordan at 1. Barkley coming in at 3.

Need some suggestions for 4 and 5? There's also Karl Malone who's solid as always, but how come there hasn't been a mention of Patrick Ewing here? I'm down to putting him at a solid 4 right now. Probably anchoring that 90s Knicks defense at PEAK form, I'd love to here a little bit more about him (sp6r?), his production in the playoffs didn't even take a dip.

From my understanding, it was a completely choke-fest from multiple players on the team, while having HCA against the Bulls, but completely blowing it.

[Baller 24]

JB: Those are all good arguments for MJ, except him being 2nd in DPOY voting. He absolutely did not deserve more consideration than guys like Robinson (who he tied), Ewing, Rodman, etc., so in that respect, he was definitely overrated defensively. Just because he was tied for 2nd doesn't mean that he was comparable to Hakeem or Robinson defensively. I look at the awards to see which guys were being recognized, but I fully realize that the order has to be questioned at times.

+1

[ElGee]

Kaima

Houston-Seattle
Game 7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMIGWwv- ... re=related

Bastillon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcSvf01p ... re=related
You will love this game if you haven't seen it.

Watching Sonics games is depressing.

[ElGee]

Btw, I don't know how Jordan isn't No. 1 unless you disregard the postseason. I've been watching basketball since the late 80s and I've never seen anything like MJ's play in the 93 postseason.

[Sedale Threatt]

Agreed. I'd say that entire three-peat. Not sure I've ever felt as hopeless as I did in 91, with an overmatched Lakers team trying to keep up. You just couldn't stop him. I guess I can relate to how Todd McCullough must have felt in the 02 Finals against Shaq. No matter what you did, you were going to end up with your balls stomped on and your teeth kicked in.