Retro POY '92-93 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

My vote:

1. Jordan
2. Hakeem
3. Barkley
4. Ewing
5. Robinson

Jordan's an easy #1 for me.

Hakeem vs Barkley is tough. I considered Barkley better at the time, but I look at what happened between these 2 the next two years, and it's hard for me to swallow these two were totally different players this year.

Ewing's a solid #4. That Knick defense was amazing.

Robinson slides in at #5. The Malone/Robinson debates over the past few threads have been remarkable, and have left me siding with alternating guys each year. I'm not satisfied with that. This will be something I'll think more on after the project.

Honorable Mention:

Malone - disappointing year for the Jazz, disappointing playoffs for Malone, still a clear top 10 guy.

Shaq - the big rookie. It was fun reminiscing about him coming into the league.

Pippen - #2 on a 3-peater ain't too shabby.

Daugherty & Kemp - best players on great teams.

[Doctor MJ]

Last call. Please make clear any changes you make after this point.

[bastillon]

Last I'll just mention briefly: It should be noted that in '90-91, Hakeem's supporting cast did pretty darn well without him. I don't really want to get into that too much because it wasn't in my original post, and there are reasonable argument to say that Hakeem had a relatively weak supporting cast. However, if there's anyone out there who isn't aware of that history, and just has an idea that Hakeem was out there with D-leaguers, they should research further.

or one could also look at other years and see this trend not really holding up at all. how about 2-11 without Hakeem in '92 ? or maybe 3-7 in '95 ? 1-9 in '96 ? 16-21 in '98 ? it's revisionist history to look at one season and make an assumption that Olajuwon's supporting cast was any good. most of the time Otis Thorpe, a role player, was his 2nd best teammate. it's pretty clear to me that there's a lot more evidence to the contrary than just '91.

[kaima]

Malone's regular season was better, and his post-season was not strikingly worse than Robinson's.

Advanced stats, which mainly are about offensive production, shows that Robinson and Malone were very close in 1993 season.

Advanced stats -- your previous standard, natch -- show that Malone was better. Malone had an ORtg of 120 and a DRtg of 103. Robinson put up a 113 on ORtg and a 100 on D.

Suddenly this, of course, is beside the point to you. A lot of nerve.

Advanced metrics, in the past, have helped to cover up the truth about Robinson's lack. When that happened, you were happy to use them as your argumentative basis. When they don't do this, suddenly their import is dropped by a ridiculous factor (innumerate?) in your reading of a given season.

Me? They've never been my main argument. It is, however, entertaining, watching you try and worm away from it like a fatalistic piece of bait.

Add defense to that – and there’s no doubt that Robinson was better defender - and Robinson overall is better.

Spurs were the 10th best defensive unit in the league. Utah was 13.

Teams like Houston and NY -- led by two top-tier defensive Cs -- were 3rd and 1st respectively.

With the exception of Robinson Spurs players weren’t impressive on defensive

Was it Robinson's teammates that held him to 43.9% against the Suns' frontline?

Suns in regular season with KJ had 116.0 ORtg, against Spurs in playoffs 113.0

Suns were held to 107.8 ORtg by an 8th seed.

Both these teams were worse on offensive end because of Robinson’s great ability to anchor the defense.

The Blazers and Suns bothered Robinson and the Spurs as much or more as the inverse.

In the Suns case, you're talking about the 9th-ranked defense in the league. Still better than the Spurs, and still able to bother Robinson at least as much as he bothered Barkley.

All without a real DPOY candidate. Funny how that works, considering your argument as to Robinson's overwhelming defensive ability.

I would also like to say that Barkley had worst series in these playoff against Spurs - .538 TS% (BTW, Robinson had .553) was even worst results than against very good organized Sonics defense. Also he had the lowest ast/tov ratio – 1.2, while against Bulls and Lakers he even had above 3!

So Barkley scoring 26.1 PPG to DRob's 25.6, and shooting a higher percentage, is now supposed to prove to me that Robinson had a great post-season that's supposed to leapfrog Malone's overall season?

Funny how years where Malone knocked Robinson around on both ends -- with a negative-ratio of nearly ten PPG in Robinson's scoring from the regular to post-season resulting -- mean nothing to you as far as ranking consideration. It's either ignore or excuse.

But now? A playoff series where he plays slightly worse on offense than the other team's main cog is somehow so impressive that he's supposed to be ranked off this.

Typical.

I also want to point that in 1993 season Spurs had three different coaches and this for sure affected their performance.

You're always good at finding an excuse that is supposed to elevate Robinson -- because of what could have happened ideally, somehow this is your preferred reality. By the standards of what actually happened, however, I'm not all that impressed.

Robinson's lacking skillsets? The fact that there isn't a playoff series that can be found that demonstrates this hyped defensive domination? Just a couple of the verboten topics from your side.

[lorak]

Malone's regular season was better, and his post-season was not strikingly worse than Robinson's.

Advanced stats, which mainly are about offensive production, shows that Robinson and Malone were very close in 1993 season.

Advanced stats -- your previous standard, natch -- show that Malone was better. Malone had an ORtg of 120 and a DRtg of 103. Robinson put up a 113 on ORtg and a 100 on D.

LOL, you don’t even know what stats I’m using and that for example DRtg is useless in evaluations of individual players (I suggest you to read Oliver’s book to find out why). I repeat like for 10th time: look at mysticbb’s post – he summarized all these stats perfectly and there’s only slightly Malone’s advantage. Add defense to the equation and Robinson is better.
Focus kaima, advanced stats (mysticbb’s pots) + defense = Robinson 1993 > Malone 1993. That’s all.

So Barkley scoring 26.1 PPG to DRob's 25.6, and shooting a higher percentage,

Robinson was more efficient in that series:
Robinson .553 TS%
Barkley .538 TS%

[kaima]

LOL, you don’t even know what stats I’m using

That has a lot to do with your lacking arguments.

As far as numbers used, I'd hazard that it has something to do the numbers on the back of each player's jersey.

and that for example DRtg is useless in evaluations of individual players (I suggest you to read Oliver’s book to find out why). I repeat like for 10th time: look at mysticbb’s post – he summarized all these stats perfectly and there’s only slightly Malone’s advantage. Add defense to the equation and Robinson is better.

Devil's advocate. Not my standard to begin with, therefore not my problem.

Focus kaima, advanced stats (mysticbb’s pots) + defense = Robinson 1993 > Malone 1993. That’s all.

That's quite the complex equation you've formed...oh, wait.

The entirety of your defense for Robinson in this thread has been, literally, liberal use of that selfsame word.

Yet when the numbers are really looked at, on-court, and as far as result, Robinson's impact is not all that impressive in a macro sense.

As I asked you before, why isn't there an example of Robinson bothering or harrassing a team to any great degree in a playoff series from his prime? Why are there more outliers as to his game being bothered so often rather than the star he was guarding? Why are team like the Suns, led by Charles Barkley and no real defensive anchor beside him, better than the Spurs on defense in 93?

Make sure to ignore these questions. I know that's your only real defense.

With a guy like Hakeem, I witnessed greatness on both ends of the court. He was outstanding as far as skill, not just on the basis of advanced regular season metrics.

So Barkley scoring 26.1 PPG to DRob's 25.6, and shooting a higher percentage,

Robinson was more efficient in that series:
Robinson .553 TS%
Barkley .538 TS%

More cherry-picking.

Again, since when do the playoffs mean anything to you? A ridiculous contradiction, especially considering the fact that Robinson really didn't outplay Barkley.

[lorak]

As I asked you before, why isn't there an example of Robinson bothering or harrassing a team to any great degree in a playoff series from his prime? Why are there more outliers as to his game being bothered so often rather than the star he was guarding? Why are team like the Suns, led by Charles Barkley and no real defensive anchor beside him, better than the Spurs on defense in 93?

Wait, you really think that Malone in 1993 was better defender (had more impact on team D) than Robinson?!

Again, since when do the playoffs mean anything to you?

Since always. I just don't ignore regular season, like you are doing.

[kaima]

As I asked you before, why isn't there an example of Robinson bothering or harrassing a team to any great degree in a playoff series from his prime? Why are there more outliers as to his game being bothered so often rather than the star he was guarding? Why are team like the Suns, led by Charles Barkley and no real defensive anchor beside him, better than the Spurs on defense in 93?

Wait, you really think that Malone in 1993 was better defender (had more impact on team D) than Robinson?!

Wait, you really think that Robinson in 1994 (95/96) was a better offensive player (had more impact on offense) than Malone (Hakeem/Malone)?

Again, since when do the playoffs mean anything to you?

Since always. I just don't ignore regular season, like you are doing.

Interesting that Barkley slightly outplaying Robinson in 93, then, means more to you than Malone annihilating Robinson in 94.

And by interesting I mean transparent.

[Doctor MJ]

'92-93 Results

Code: Select all

Player             1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1. Michael Jordan   22   0   1   0   0 225   0.978
2. Hakeem Olajuwon   1  15   7   0   0 150   0.652
3. Charles Barkley   0   8  15   0   0 131   0.570
4. Patrick Ewing     0   0   0  17   5  56   0.243
5. David Robinson    0   0   0   4  10  22   0.096
6. Karl Malone       0   0   0   2   8  14   0.061


[lorak]

Wait, you really think that Robinson in 1994 (95/96) was a better offensive player (had more impact on offense) than Malone (Hakeem/Malone)?

More than Malone - sure. More than Olajuwon it's arguable in 1994 and I want to remaind you that I vote Hakeem above Robinson.

Now, please, answer my question.

[kaima]

As I asked you before, why isn't there an example of Robinson bothering or harrassing a team to any great degree in a playoff series from his prime? Why are there more outliers as to his game being bothered so often rather than the star he was guarding? Why are team like the Suns, led by Charles Barkley and no real defensive anchor beside him, better than the Spurs on defense in 93?

Make sure to ignore these questions. I know that's your only real defense.

/thread

[lorak]

So you really think that Malone in 1993 was better defender than Robinson? Cool...

[semi-sentient]

Site updated: www.dolem.com/poy

As for top 5 all-time share leaders, Jordan leap frogs KG, Malone, and Kobe to take the #3 spot, while Malone inches closer to Kobe for the #4 spot. More than likely, Malone overtakes Kobe once the '91-92 voting is over and done with. Jordan is still 3-4 seasons away from getting the #1 spot.

Code: Select all

1. Tim Duncan         6.153
2. Shaquille O'Neal   5.910
3. Michael Jordan     3.916
4. Kobe Bryant        3.658
5. Karl Malone        3.457

[kaima]

So you really think that Malone in 1993 was better defender than Robinson? Cool...

Real question: are you engaging in pure sophistry or is this actually just a parody?

More than Malone - sure.

Laughable.

More than Olajuwon it's arguable in 1994

I threw up a little.

Your inability or unwillingness to consider on-court play and skillsets is crippling. The fact that your statistical measurements wink in and out depending on contrivance as connects to player worship is appalling. That's my read, anyway.