Retro POY '91-92 (Voting Complete)

[JordansBulls]

[*] Clyde Drexler - Hell of a season for Clyde the Glide. He was pretty kick ass in both the RS and PS. Led his team to the Finals and was the MVP runner-up, as well as getting recognition on the All-NBA 1st Team. The Blazers were certainly stacked, but he was the man on that team so he gets the glory. A bonefide #1 option and IIRC, he was considered one of the leagues best players back then.


[*] Karl Malone - Another impressive year, and he was pretty phenomenal against the Blazers despite that poor game 1 performance, so I can't fault him for not taking his team deeper. Still, as impressive as he was, I think he's slightly below Drexler who didn't have Stockton there to make him look good.

Just as a matter of course, why is it that Stockton is such a boon for Malone, as opposed to Drexler playing on arguably the most talented team in the league? Individually, I think Malone was better throughout the season, but that Drexler was on the better team.

Not averse to being convinced otherwise, but this has been my general feeling and finding when taking a cursory look.

I'm going to review the Por-Utah series. I've not watched them yet but I've located some of the games online


Game 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMEa5g9P ... re=related
Game 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQv6Jr1P ... re=related
Game 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvY53x-- ... re=related

Only, been able to find Portland wins. It always somewhat annoys me when people who have the entire series on tape only upload the games won by the ultimately victorious team.

Why would you upload a game you lost?

[lorak]

[*] Clyde Drexler - Hell of a season for Clyde the Glide. He was pretty kick ass in both the RS and PS. Led his team to the Finals and was the MVP runner-up, as well as getting recognition on the All-NBA 1st Team. The Blazers were certainly stacked, but he was the man on that team so he gets the glory. A bonefide #1 option and IIRC, he was considered one of the leagues best players back then.


[*] Karl Malone - Another impressive year, and he was pretty phenomenal against the Blazers despite that poor game 1 performance, so I can't fault him for not taking his team deeper. Still, as impressive as he was, I think he's slightly below Drexler who didn't have Stockton there to make him look good.

Just as a matter of course, why is it that Stockton is such a boon for Malone, as opposed to Drexler playing on arguably the most talented team in the league? Individually, I think Malone was better throughout the season, but that Drexler was on the better team.

Not averse to being convinced otherwise, but this has been my general feeling and finding when taking a cursory look.

I'm going to review the Por-Utah series. I've not watched them yet but I've located some of the games online


Game 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMEa5g9P ... re=related
Game 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQv6Jr1P ... re=related
Game 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvY53x-- ... re=related

Only, been able to find Portland wins. It always somewhat annoys me when people who have the entire series on tape only upload the games won by the ultimately victorious team.

Or they don't have these games.

[semi-sentient]

Just as a matter of course, why is it that Stockton is such a boon for Malone, as opposed to Drexler playing on arguably the most talented team in the league? Individually, I think Malone was better throughout the season, but that Drexler was on the better team.

Both guys benefited, to be sure, but I think that Stockton plays a much larger role in creating for Malone than any of these other guys (teammates) being ranked do for them. He's one of the greatest PG's ever, so really, he's just doing his job.

I'm more impressed by Drexler in this comparison because he's #1 on his team in scoring as well as assists, so he's having to do a bit more whereas Malone is focused primarily on scoring. Malone has a nice advantage as far as TS% is concerned, but I just think that Drexler is contributing more on the offensive end all things considered. I don't know, I might still change my mind because Malone had a really good post-season and it's not his fault that the Jazz were bounced, so I'll have to hear some different thoughts on Malone/Drexler before I can really decide. I think it's pretty close, and the deciding factor may be on the defensive end where Malone probably had a bigger impact. Even then it's hard to say because the Blazers were still rated higher than the Jazz defensively.

[shawngoat23]

1. Michael Jordan - Arguably his finest year
2. Clyde Drexler - True, the Blazers were deep, but while Terry Porter was a great floor general and solid #2 option, it's not like he had another superstar. Drexler was statistically extremely productive, and those statistics produced results: he led his team to the 2nd best record in the league and to the Finals. The MVP voters had him correct at #2.
3. Karl Malone - Jazz won 55 games, good for second in the West, behind Karl Malone, who scored prolifically and efficiently, and crashed the boards and played defense on both ends of the court. They made a great run deep into the playoffs with him stepping up his game from the regular season. No complaints about his performance in the WCF, he performed as he had to, and Stockton had some poor games and Terry Porter was able to flat out go off.
4. Patrick Ewing - Ewing was a force on both ends of the court this year, plus provided the leadership and intensity for a team that was fairly deep but had no true sidekick. They finished with 51 wins the East and pushed the Bulls to 7 games.
5. Scottie Pippen - Displayed a superb all around game (21/8/7/2/1) and was the clear Robin to MJ's Batman on a dominant championship team.

I would have had David Robinson at #3 (incredible production offensively, dominated the glass, and won DPOY) but 14 missed games plus having to sit on the sidelines as his team got swept dropped him out of the top 5. No fault of his own, but if you're injured when it matters most, I have to bump other players ahead of you.

Edit: Regarding Stockton, he was never regarded as a top 5 player, so I'm not surprised he has so few top 5 votes here. If we expanded this to top 10, I'm sure we'd start seeing the love.

[sp6r=underrated]

Why would you upload a game you lost?

I wasn't talking about uploading series your team lost, but rather games your team lost in a series they won. You can learn just as much about your favorite team in defeat as in victory. To really understand and appreciate1993 ecf, you need to see game 1 and 2.

[Baller 24]

Brad Daugherty anyone?
21.5/10 on TSP of 63% while doing 21/10 with a TSP of 61% in the playoffs, led his team to the ECF, without him they were 5-4, with him 52-21.

[Optimism Prime]

Edit: Regarding Stockton, he was never regarded as a top 5 player, so I'm not surprised he has so few top 5 votes here. If we expanded this to top 10, I'm sure we'd start seeing the love.

I'm irritated with myself that I've not given Stockton a vote, because in my eyes he's absolutely one of the best PGs the game has ever seen. But... top-5 is pretty narrow. I'm sure he'd have some top-10 votes from me, yeah.

[ronnymac2]

John Stockton barely deserves honorable mentions. Nobody should be surprised or feel badly about him not being credited here. He simply never deserved it.


Jordan, Malone, Drexler, Olajuwon, Ewing, and Barkley are going to be in the mix for me. David Robinson would have been, but once again, he simply dissappeared in the playoffs. Typical.

[Baller 24]

Houston Rockets were 40-30 with Olajuwon, 2-10 without him in the RS.

[TMACFORMVP]

I think Jordan, Drexler, Malone, and Ewing should be locks in the top 5.

Then that final spot is what makes it so interesting.

Hakeem had a down statistical season compared to the seasons we just assessed, but he missed too many games (even though the Rockets went 2-10 without him) in that they didn't even qualify for the playoffs (going back to the statistics though, Hakeem was still rather dominant 20/10 with 4+ blocks). The same thing for Barkley, his statistics are there, but his team only won 35 Games, and those Sixers teams didn't make the playoffs either.

Robinson was amazing statistically (2.3 steals, and 4.5 blocks, are you kidding me?). But he failed to play in the playoffs, and himself also missed 14 games in the regular season.

Adding onto Daugherty, the Cavaliers were tied for the second best record in the NBA, and he essentially maintained his 20/10 production in the playoffs as well. He was large in that seven game series against the Celtics:

Code: Select all

Game One: 26/17/2 on 10-20
Game Two: 22/9/5 on 7-15
Game Three: 22/11/1 on 10-17
Game Four: 20/8/1 on 9-15
Game Five: 28/9/5 on 10-13
Game Six: 12/4/1 on 3-8
Game Seven: 28/9/6 on 9-11

22.5 PPG, 9.5 RPG, 3.0 APG on .585 from the field.
*If you exclude that one off Game 6, he was 24/10/3 on over 60% from the floor.

But had that one CLUNKER in the critical Game 5 against the Bulls in the ECF where he went 1-10 for only 5 points, ultimately going on to lose that game, and the next.

The Clippers AND Warriors won more games than the Lakers this season

Which brings up the seasons Mullin and Hardaway had. Timmy did nearly 23/10, and Mullin was ridiculously efficient 26/6. Both of them dipped in the playoffs though, especially Mullin.

If we're considering them though, we can talk about KJ as well, who's somewhat going under the radar (would probably take him over Stockton - who's efficiency dropped across the board in the playoffs). The Suns advanced, and lost to the aforementioned Blazers who went to the Finals. In the regular season, KJ did 20/11 on 48% from the floor.

He was even better in the playoffs too - 24/4/12 with an increase in efficiency (nearly 60% TS).

Then of course Pippen. I've never been on the bandwagon that he was a Top 5 player, but there's no clear cut player at this spot IMO. And he was good in the playoffs, and 21/8/7 in the regular season, with always elite defense.

[kaima]

Another year, another terrible Utah team as far as spacing.

Watched some of game 5, WCF. Then looked up Utah's stats on outside shooting.

Took 7.2 per game in the Conference Finals. Made 1.6 per. Made ten over the course of the series, with Stockton hitting 6 of them.

Team shot 22% on threes. Horrendous. Especially for a team that, plausibly, came within an eye injury and OT loss of making the Finals.

Real dumb not to provide SOME shooting talent (other than your pass-first star PG) when you have a dominant post player at his peak.

Portland attempted 12.6 per, made 5.3 for a 42% average in the series.

[kaima]

Just as a matter of course, why is it that Stockton is such a boon for Malone, as opposed to Drexler playing on arguably the most talented team in the league? Individually, I think Malone was better throughout the season, but that Drexler was on the better team.

Both guys benefited, to be sure, but I think that Stockton plays a much larger role in creating for Malone than any of these other guys (teammates) being ranked do for them. He's one of the greatest PG's ever, so really, he's just doing his job.

I'm more impressed by Drexler in this comparison because he's #1 on his team in scoring as well as assists,

The problem I have with something like this is, you could look at a peak Stockton's combined production (say 17+ PPG and 14 and a half assists) and come to the conclusion that the conflated offensive output gives him a higher peak than either Drexler or Malone.

Maybe it's arguable. That certainly would fit into the overall paradigm that some have argued, as regards Stockton's worth to Utah's offense.

But I tend to think that post players create a lot more shots than they get credit for. Ball movement out of the post creates many points when you have a great post up guy, but he's likely to get very little credit overall statistically for that.

so he's having to do a bit more whereas Malone is focused primarily on scoring.

But returning to teammates and position, Malone has it arguably far rougher this year than Drexler. A team like Portland can load up on Malone when he has the ball because Utah is so lacking in shooting talent and relative depth.

Considering that, Malone's numbers are all the more impressive.

I think it's pretty close, and the deciding factor may be on the defensive end where Malone probably had a bigger impact. Even then it's hard to say because the Blazers were still rated higher than the Jazz defensively.

The question is, how much does Drexler have to do with that?

From Malone's side, I tend to look at positional D and how he handled matchups. He also tends to do well in just anticipating, gets to the right spot at the right time; perhaps making a guy pass up a shot altogether. This won't show up statistically, unfortunately.

Between the two teams, I'd say that offensive holes killed Utah more than their defense. Though I want to look closely at how much Porter+Drexler got inside, and how much that had to do with Eaton's lack of mobility.

[Doctor MJ]

Edit: Regarding Stockton, he was never regarded as a top 5 player, so I'm not surprised he has so few top 5 votes here. If we expanded this to top 10, I'm sure we'd start seeing the love.

I'm irritated with myself that I've not given Stockton a vote, because in my eyes he's absolutely one of the best PGs the game has ever seen. But... top-5 is pretty narrow. I'm sure he'd have some top-10 votes from me, yeah.

Stockton makes a living in the top 10. As of the last time I went through this by myself, he was in my Top 10 7 times. So don't feel too bad leaving him out, finishing in the top 5 is not everything.

[kaima]

Stockton's best stuff is going to be killed by Utah's bad rosters. 17, nearly-15 and 3 is an outlier that no one else has put up for a season, but Utah was mediocre when this was going on.

[Doctor MJ]

Another year, another terrible Utah team as far as spacing.

Watched some of game 5, WCF. Then looked up Utah's stats on outside shooting.

Took 7.2 per game in the Conference Finals. Made 1.6 per. Made ten over the course of the series, with Stockton hitting 6 of them.

Team shot 22% on threes. Horrendous. Especially for a team that, plausibly, came within an eye injury and OT loss of making the Finals.

Real dumb not to provide SOME shooting talent (other than your pass-first star PG) when you have a dominant post player at his peak.

Portland attempted 12.6 per, made 5.3 for a 42% average in the series.

I think it's worth noting that while by no means was Utah shooting a ton of 3's, they were 18th in the league in 3's made. Basically, they were pretty normal at this point in history. (#1 in the league that year would be #29 this year).

Also worth noting that while Houston was going for the 3's, New York was only a little ahead of Utah, and San Antonio was near the bottom of the whole league. Raises the question: How might things have been different in this era, if other teams had sought to build around their inside men like Houston did theirs?

[Doctor MJ]

Stockton's best stuff is going to be killed by Utah's bad rosters. 17, nearly-15 and 3 is an outlier that no one else has put up for a season, but Utah was mediocre when this was going on.

Well, let's remember, Utah was a 40+ win team before Stockton became a starter. He didn't inherit THAT weak of a supporting cast.

[kaima]

Another year, another terrible Utah team as far as spacing.

Watched some of game 5, WCF. Then looked up Utah's stats on outside shooting.

Took 7.2 per game in the Conference Finals. Made 1.6 per. Made ten over the course of the series, with Stockton hitting 6 of them.

Team shot 22% on threes. Horrendous. Especially for a team that, plausibly, came within an eye injury and OT loss of making the Finals.

Real dumb not to provide SOME shooting talent (other than your pass-first star PG) when you have a dominant post player at his peak.

Portland attempted 12.6 per, made 5.3 for a 42% average in the series.

I think it's worth noting that while by no means was Utah shooting a ton of 3's, they were 18th in the league in 3's made.

I'm curious as to just how bad they were with pressure, though. Not just defensive pressure, but pressure in the moment. 22% is pretty damned awful for any era.

The thing about Utah, too, is that I'm not seeing even a lot of long twos. These Sloan teams are so often critically flawed, because the layup drill philosophy one through ten is not conducive to matchup basketball come playoff time. They all try and get way too much in the lane, which clogs and complicates Malone's job.

Basically, they were pretty normal at this point in history. (#1 in the league that year would be #29 this year).

The Blazers also set a mark for 3s made in that Conference Finals. A team like the Suns probably could top that in two or three games today.

Also worth noting that while Houston was going for the 3's, New York was only a little ahead of Utah, and San Antonio was near the bottom of the whole league. Raises the question: How might things have been different in this era, if other teams had sought to build around their inside men like Houston did theirs?

That's a very good question.

It used to be said that Houston lived and died by the three. But how many quasi-contenders committed suicide by not even making the attempt?

[kaima]

Stockton's best stuff is going to be killed by Utah's bad rosters. 17, nearly-15 and 3 is an outlier that no one else has put up for a season, but Utah was mediocre when this was going on.

Well, let's remember, Utah was a 40+ win team before Stockton became a starter. He didn't inherit THAT weak of a supporting cast.

Yeah, but that was also with 'stars' (Adrian Dantley; Ricky Green made an All-Star team or two, didn't he?) that were no longer there by the time Stockton was really doing his thing.

Utah improved with Stockton and Malone, pretty much alone. I look at something like that 88-89 team and I can't believe how bad the roster is, and it really showed in playoff gameplanning.

Looking at Utah's rosters in the late 80s/early 90s, they were good at hiding flaws and maximizing talent in the regular season, but faced exposure in the playoffs.

I think Stockton will end up in a similar position to what Barkley's faced with this year.

Right or wrong, people will look at the numbers in a less awed light because Utah wasn't that good of a team.

[Doctor MJ]

Also worth noting that while Houston was going for the 3's, New York was only a little ahead of Utah, and San Antonio was near the bottom of the whole league. Raises the question: How might things have been different in this era, if other teams had sought to build around their inside men like Houston did theirs?

That's a very good question.

It used to be said that Houston lived and died by the three. But how many quasi-contenders committed suicide by not even making the attempt?

Had the exact same thought recently. Really goes to show how flawed that type of reasoning is just generally. People are so prone to say "you win a title by X, you can't win by doing Y", and it's silly, million ways to skin a cat.

[sp6r=underrated]

Had the exact same thought recently. Really goes to show how flawed that type of reasoning is just generally. People are so prone to say "you win a title by X, you can't win by doing Y", and it's silly, million ways to skin a cat.

Yup.