Retro POY '90-91 (Voting Complete)

[Manuel Calavera]

I think what sp6r was asking was Robinson being denied the ball which limited his touches? Even short PF/SF's can deny the ball to a center if that's what the focus of the defense is.

[jicama]

Malone also has a negative rap in the PS. His claim to fame in the RS above all is his monstrous scoring/efficiency.

In 1991, Malone was 2nd in the league in scoring, 4th in rebounding.
Also 3rd in WinShares. 5th in offensive, 4th in defensive WS.
Only he and Jordan were even top 7 in both OWS and DWS.
5th in MVP voting.

I'm noticing that a lot of people here undervalue Malone, relative to what his peers and contemporaries thought. And relative to his stats.

[Optimism Prime]

Malone also has a negative rap in the PS. His claim to fame in the RS above all is his monstrous scoring/efficiency.

In 1991, Malone was 2nd in the league in scoring, 4th in rebounding.
Also 3rd in WinShares. 5th in offensive, 4th in defensive WS.
Only he and Jordan were even top 7 in both OWS and DWS.
5th in MVP voting.

I'm noticing that a lot of people here undervalue Malone, relative to what his peers and contemporaries thought. And relative to his stats.

http://www.dolem.com/poy/

And yet, he's still in 4th place behind Duncan, Shaq, and MJ... I wouldn't exactly call that undervalued.

[mysticbb]

http://www.dolem.com/poy/

And yet, he's still in 4th place behind Duncan, Shaq, and MJ... I wouldn't exactly call that undervalued.

Me neither, especially when you take into account that he will end up most likely with more POY shares than he got MVP shares (4.296).

[Optimism Prime]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Karl Malone
4. Charles Barkley
5. David Robinson

Pretty sure this will be my final ranking, though I'll still listen to arguments.

1-2 are set, though.

[Dr Positivity]

We are talking only about 1991. Besieds it kind of funny how Robinson's HUGE advantage on D is ignored here, while for example in All Time League no way Barkley 1991 wuld be pick before Robinson 1991. I remember some ATL threads and Barkley defense was criticized as much as possible. Now suddenly it doesn't matter.

Robinson is easily the better ATL player. Barkley is not a good ATL fit because he takes great d from the PF position off the table, and his epic scoring and good playmaking is not needed nearly as much on a team full of all-stars.

That doesn't mean Drob is more valuable in the NBA, particularly when both guys have to be the man in a playoff series

[Gongxi]

1- Michael Jordan
2- Magic Johnson
3- David Robinson
4- Karl Malone
5- Charles Barkley

Chuck suffers because of the time he missed. Basically, the story of his career for me so far in this project.

[Dr Positivity]

1. Jordan - Obvious choice
2. Magic - Obvious #2
3. Karl Malone - Great year for Malone. 29/12, .60 TS%, played well in the PS and against Portland in a series closer than 5 games would indicate. The "start" of his 3 year scoring peak.
4. Charles Barkley - Missed games, but stepped it up when it mattered and achieved more than #5 with worse help
5. David Robinson - Has to be punished for losing in the first round to Golden State. I agree the trend of him not taking many shots is troubling and indicitive of Robinson's playoff career.

[Sedale Threatt]

1. Jordan
2. Johnson
3. Malone
4. Barkley
5. Robinson

[ronnymac2]

All right. I need to dock Hakeem for missing 26 games. That's borderline really bad for me. When Shaq was missing thirty, I only put him at fifth once because of only good competition. Hakeem has great competition here.

Barkley and Malone over Robinson. Ewing wasn't that bad in the post-season- just a horrible one game. Still, Barkley and Malone over Ewing. I guess Robinson over Ewing, despite Robinson wimping out in the playoffs as usual.

You know what....Olajuwon had a very good playoffs against a really good team. He really might get the fifth spot. He was playing like a top-2 defender ever with very good offense. I'd rather have that, even if it is for 56 games in the REG season, than a guy who I don't trust in the playoffs. At all.

Drexler and Pippen won't make the cut, but they were great.

Barkley vs. Malone is really interesting. They both made the second round, and it isn't their fault their teams lost. Barkley wins the stats and MVP voting. Both were all-nba first team. I never know who to think is the actual best player between these two. This year, the tiebreakers are pretty damn close. I guess I'll go with Sir Charles. It seems he was a bit more highly regarded, and it seems I can't make the decision myself this time.

1990 and 1991 for Magic are insanely underrated years for him. He wasn't on a team filled with superstars and a GOAT C. His 3-point shooting was really good (especially in 90). Magic was an amazing free throw shooter, too. I'm not sure if he's at his peak, and Jordan is at his, so MJ is the better actual player- though it is close. Jordan wins all the tiebreakers.

Final Vote:

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Hakeem Olajuwon

Honorable Mentions: Patrick Ewing, Scottie Pippen, David Robinson, Clyde Drexler

[jicama]

http://www.dolem.com/poy/

And yet, he's still in 4th place behind Duncan, Shaq, and MJ... I wouldn't exactly call that undervalued.

That link doesn't seem to do anything.
I was looking at the alltime top100 poll, and see Karl Malone is 15th. Behind Moses, Havlicek, etc.
Do 14 guys have more all-league and allstar nods?
Apparently due to no rings. How many HOF and AllStar players did Karl play with in Utah? Stockton and ... ?

In this 1991 poll, he's no better than #3, so he can only go down from there. As usual, he doesn't miss any games. If he'd missed 16 games (like Barkley, like Shaq many times), someone would hold that against him.
Nobody loves him.

[Gongxi]

Yeah, I'm not here to 'love' a player, I'm here to rank the top five players every year as emotionlessly as possible, using the same criteria applied the same way. We don't need any more bandwagons.

[Dr Positivity]

That link doesn't seem to do anything.
I was looking at the alltime top100 poll, and see Karl Malone is 15th. Behind Moses, Havlicek, etc.
Do 14 guys have more all-league and allstar nods?
Apparently due to no rings. How many HOF and AllStar players did Karl play with in Utah? Stockton and ... ?

HOF:
Stockton

All-star:
Eaton
Hornacek
Jeff Malone

(and Dantley but he doesn't really count cause Karl was a 15ppg youngin)

That's more than most players have. Stockton alone is more than most players have.

With that said 15th all-time is pretty good, and I'm thinking Karl will probably do even better than on this list, he's going to rack up an awesome number and will likely finish ahead of Hakeem, Dr. J, Oscar (it's hard to rack up points when you're splitting 3rd/4th rankings every year due to Russell and Wilt dominance), Havlicek.. Moses and Jerry West will be close. I'm betting on Karl Malone making top 10. Which is pretty awesome for a guy with 0 rings playing with a HOF for 15 years

[kaima]

Yeah, I'm not here to 'love' a player, I'm here to rank the top five players every year as emotionlessly as possible, using the same criteria applied the same way. We don't need any more bandwagons.

Statistically, it may be a mere balancing act.

I'm certainly not advocating it, but this project already has a few player worshipers.

That is also not to say that I think jicama falls under such a paradigm. Though we look at players differently -- formula versus on-court reads -- his posts have been thoughtful so far.

[kaima]

That link doesn't seem to do anything.
I was looking at the alltime top100 poll, and see Karl Malone is 15th. Behind Moses, Havlicek, etc.
Do 14 guys have more all-league and allstar nods?
Apparently due to no rings. How many HOF and AllStar players did Karl play with in Utah? Stockton and ... ?

HOF:
Stockton

All-star:
Eaton
Hornacek
Jeff Malone

(and Dantley but he doesn't really count cause Karl was a 15ppg youngin)

That's more than most players have. Stockton alone is more than most players have.

But who are most players?

I see plenty of names above Malone that played with better talent in their careers. I see many guys in the top 30 that played with more talent.

With that said 15th all-time is pretty good, and I'm thinking Karl will probably do even better than on this list, he's going to rack up an awesome number and will likely finish ahead of Hakeem, Dr. J, Oscar (it's hard to rack up points when you're splitting 3rd/4th rankings every year due to Russell and Wilt dominance), Havlicek.. Moses and Jerry West will be close. I'm betting on Karl Malone making top 10. Which is pretty awesome for a guy with 0 rings playing with a HOF for 15 years

Yet you can easily make the argument that most, if not all, of the players ranked ahead of Malone had better team-support much of the time in their careers.

I think it's pretty obvious that, top-whatever rankings, Malone gets dumped about 5 spots because Utah never won the title. Malone at ten seems like reasonable individual career value, yet many would cry foul at that. I think it's probably the other way around.

I would only hope that this doesn't play a role as far as voting in this project. But by that same standard, that makes this conversation pretty much OT.

I worry that Barkley gets hurt in the same way in this polling. Even so, I tend to think a good deal of the voters are trying their best to be fair. The question is, what does that mean?

Such is always the nature of polling, however. Trying to be the least awful you can be.

[jicama]

All-star:
Eaton
Hornacek
Jeff Malone

(and Dantley but he doesn't really count

Uh, no.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/tea ... _star.html

Tom Chambers was an allstar at one time, but not with Utah.
Just Stockton; and one year, Eaton.

For career totals (stats, awards), almost nobody is ahead of Malone.
For sustained peak value, a few are.
Some of those 14 were neither.

[kaima]

All-star:
Eaton
Hornacek
Jeff Malone

(and Dantley but he doesn't really count

Uh, no.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/tea ... _star.html

Tom Chambers was an allstar at one time, but not with Utah.
Just Stockton; and one year, Eaton.

For career totals (stats, awards), almost nobody is ahead of Malone.
For sustained peak value, a few are.
Some of those 14 were neither.

I tend to agree. When it comes to Malone, there's an all-or-nothing (or, rather, team-result>>>>individual greatness) outlook where he gets severely hurt by lack of a championship.

So does Elgin Baylor.

But I also think we're dangerously close to driving this thread somewhere it doesn't belong.

I was going to PM you, but your account doesn't accept. I'd like to continue the conversation, but not on this thread -- I can only ask that you allow private messages through.

[Dr Positivity]

But who are most players?

I see plenty of names above Malone that played with better talent in their careers.

Like who... Hakeem didn't. Duncan is around the same. Shaq had more. Oscar probably had less when you adjust for the 8 team league and relative to competition. Jerry West had a bit more, but again, he had to face more condensed teams. Moses had more in Philly and less in Houston. Hondo had more throughout, I wouldn't have voted him above Malone anyways though. Dr. J made the top 10 last time due to ABA dominance. I don't know what to do with him because his NBA career is barely top 20. So other than Hondo, the only guy you could really point to and say "well he's lucky he played with sick players" is Shaq, who I think most of us agree was more dominant in his peak than Malone ever was anyways. Moses got boosted by 83, but he had more of an "alpha dog of the league" status than Malone even before that point

Malone had another top 10 player and then usually a fringe all-star as the 3rd guy in Eaton, Malone, Hornacek. That's pretty damn good. Especially when in 94 and 95 the team that beat Utah was the Rockets who clearly had less star talent after Hakeem, as good as those supporting guys played

I think Malone has a case for 13th and in this comp he'll be 10-12th... that is legit considering the names he's going against

[Dr Positivity]

All-star:
Eaton
Hornacek
Jeff Malone

(and Dantley but he doesn't really count

Uh, no.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/tea ... _star.html

Tom Chambers was an allstar at one time, but not with Utah.
Just Stockton; and one year, Eaton.

For career totals (stats, awards), almost nobody is ahead of Malone.
For sustained peak value, a few are.
Some of those 14 were neither.

Hornacek and Malone made the ASG before they came to Utah, where they weren't going to make it because a) As the 3rd best offensive guy on the team they had a smaller role, and b) It's extremely rare one team gets 3 all-stars and c) They weren't all that great in the first place and had inflated career years when they made the ASG. But they were still all-stars

[kaima]

But who are most players?

I see plenty of names above Malone that played with better talent in their careers.

Like who... Hakeem didn't.

Drexler. Barkley. Pippen. Sampson.

By the standards of your all-star rundown, that's more than Malone ever had.

Also, names don't tend to deal with roster depth. Both Malone and Hakeem got screwerd here for many years, in my estimation.

Duncan is around the same.

Hm. Ginobli and Parker tend to carry more of the scoring load. People tend to rank Robinson higher than Stockton -- even try ranking him, ludicrously, over Malone.

Think that SA had better role players. Elie. Horry. Kerr.

Also a problem of debating eras here.

Oscar probably had less when you adjust for the 8 team league and relative to competition. Jerry West had a bit more, but again, he had to face more condensed teams.

Era. Era. Era.

Can argue it either way.

Also, Elgin Baylor. Similar state as Malone. Played with West. Top 20 talent, easy.

Moses had more in Philly and less in Houston.

I don't know how we're arguing this -- by year or career.

But even so, take away that 83 Philiadelphia championship and perceptions change about Moses. Yet, this is an argument where all he needed was better talent.

Malone had another top 10 player and then usually a fringe all-star as the 3rd guy in Eaton, Malone, Hornacek. That's pretty damn good. Especially when in 94 and 95 the team that beat Utah was the Rockets who clearly had less star talent after Hakeem, as good as those supporting guys players

95 Rockets? Drexler was huge. Houston only won when he scored 30+ against Utah. No one ever scored 30 alongside Malone in that series.

94? Team was very well-built, created great spacing on balance. Very good depth.

Houston also, like many championship teams, had what appears to be luck on their side. Seattle.

Not trying to bash Hakeem in any way.