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Help a NET REALGMer out

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Help a NET REALGMer out 

Post#1 » by JKiddy » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:59 pm

A few clowns on the Chitown board are bashing the Nets. I have been cordial for several posts but I had to put them in their place. I did not attack them or curse (unless d*ck at the end is cursing - which is not - the FCC allows you to say the real word),

Help me out.

P.S. I am sorry but until I got the OK today I was not allowed to say anything. But, it is extremely likely Joe Johnson is going to the Bulls. But, you'll see that once you read through the posts on the Bulls board entited "ESPN INSIDER: Chicago's salespitch to Lebron"
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Re: Help a NET REALGMer out 

Post#2 » by Preludepunk27 » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:17 pm

I'm sorry, but even if your intentions were pure, I never try hard to never get involved with other teams boards. I'm not saying that with any angst toward you though so I hope you don't take it that way. I only pop on boards to comment on trades or signings after they happen.

I'm curious though, what are the signs that JJ is signing with the bulls. Honestly, if they landed JJ and did a S&T for Amare or Bosh, they'd be pretty good. I think if any team is gonna orchestrate a S&T it'd be the bulls with one of those 2 guys.
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Re: Help a NET REALGMer out 

Post#3 » by JKiddy » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:52 pm

Pre,

We go back a long way. I didn't a fight just a peaceful debate. Sorry, if you took it the wrong way. Someone who works very close with Joe has stated his intentions to sign there. I can't say anymore than that out of respect for him. But, I actually think this might help us in the long run for the other Free Agents. If you think about it the Bulls would have to sign him for the max or close to the max and then if they don't sign and trade they only have a few million left for a small piece.

Lebron would no longer be in the running and he'd only be able to consider the Nets/Knicks or re-sign with the Cavs. The Cavs are stuck with a roster with minimal talent and no money to spend. They will try with everything they can to pull off a deal. But, teams will not take the bait.

I think we will clear a few mill off the books by moving a player with or without a pick and then moving a pick for $3 million. We can get close to the 2 Max that way.

Lebron and Wade will not join a team unless they have another star with them.

Add it all up and we have a shot. Worst case if JJ goes to the Bulls we can grab Rudy Gay and Boozer/Amare/Bosh.
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Re: Help a NET REALGMer out 

Post#4 » by mikhailjordan » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:59 pm

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In the example I provided if you're the Nets you have $11 million+ to get a quality power forward (your position of greatest need).

Conversely if you're the Bulls you have $6 million to find yourselves a shooting guard, power forward, and develop a bench.

Kirk Hinrich is vastly overrated and Luol Deng is a toxic contract good luck trying to convince a team to take either one of them...
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Re: Help a NET REALGMer out 

Post#5 » by TheNetsFan » Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:17 am

Mikhail, nice breakdown, but you are forgetting the salary of the 31st pick, and cap holds for both teams.
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Re: Help a NET REALGMer out 

Post#6 » by mikhailjordan » Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:28 am

2nd Round Picks don't count against the salary cap until they are signed hence why I left the salary at 0, essentially what the Nets would do is draft a player with the 31st pick but not officially sign him until they use up their cap space (well it's a little more complicated than this but you get the idea).

And as far as cap holds... For the Nets I don't see them bringing any of their free agents back there's an outside shot that Hayes come back and maybe Quinn but all Quinn would get is the minimum so his caphold is irrelevant.

I see a similar situation for the Bulls neither Warrick or Murray (their only two notable FA did much for them).

I think they'd be better served spending their $6 million elsewhere.

Also the first round picks you see would actually get 120% what I listed BUT until they are signed they only count as 100% of the rookie scale (the number I listed) against the cap.

So I tried to take these "loopholes" into account...
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Re: Help a NET REALGMer out 

Post#7 » by TheNetsFan » Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:47 am

Those loopholes don't exist. You can't use your cap space & then exceed the cap to fill your roster. You're right that the 2nd rounder doesn't count against the cap, but there are cap holds for all empty roster spots up to the required 13 players. That means that in this scenario, if the 2nd rounder is unsigned, the Nets will have 3 minimum salaried cap holds (plus a cap hold for Boki unless we renounce his rights which we're likely to do). That means the actual cap we have to spend on a single free agent is about $1mil less than the number in your figure. Likewise, the Bulls actual available cap space to spend on a single free agent is about $2mil less than the number in your figure.
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Re: Help a NET REALGMer out 

Post#8 » by Jersey Generals » Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:59 am

mikhailjordan wrote:Blah...


Nice spread sheet. I got a quesiton: How do you feel about Yi?
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Re: Help a NET REALGMer out 

Post#9 » by mikhailjordan » Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:03 am

Good point, looks like I did overlook that. Thanks for pointing it out.
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Re: Help a NET REALGMer out 

Post#10 » by Morthello » Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:35 am

Just checked out the thread over there. Can only say i cant wait for the season to start so i dont have to see or hear "12 wins" again, but on a related note, who is the Harris2Lopez cat? Dude just seems to be trollin and sayin stupid ish to get bulls fans to bash the nets. Pretty new here myself but i never seen him before.
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Re: Help a NET REALGMer out 

Post#11 » by enetric » Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:06 pm

Maybe we can get some others to weigh in on this but from past conversations we have had around here... I think you sitll need to account for the cap holds until the spots are filled. I like your numbers better....but I had us in for $26,799,859 in cap space with 3 cap holds counting against the cap space. Cap holds at $473,604 each.

After one max signing, I had $9,969,859 left to spend for the moment.
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Re: Help a NET REALGMer out 

Post#12 » by Preludepunk27 » Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:49 pm

What teams have trade exemptions? It kills me how secretive Rod is, but I'll live with it cause I think he's a great GM.

I'm on the fence about trading Yi still. Now I know this is garbage, but I would try to offer a team CDR/Dooling/Hump for the trade exemption or two a team under the cap. I think that clears the space needed for the 2nd max guy. The only reason I'm still on the fence with trading Yi is because he does provide something nobody in our frontcourt can do which is stretch the defense. Now, if there is a guy at #27 or #31 that is basically a Ryan Anderson or Troy Murphy kind of player (cause I haven't looked) who is at least 6'10" can play tough and has range all the way out to the 3pt line, then I'm more open to moving Yi.

Anyone else find it interesting that David Lee is shooting 500 3's a day this offseason? This is what Twill should be doing as well.
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Re: Help a NET REALGMer out 

Post#13 » by mikhailjordan » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:50 pm

enetric wrote:Maybe we can get some others to weigh in on this but from past conversations we have had around here... I think you sitll need to account for the cap holds until the spots are filled. I like your numbers better....but I had us in for $26,799,859 in cap space with 3 cap holds counting against the cap space. Cap holds at $473,604 each.

After one max signing, I had $9,969,859 left to spend for the moment.


What are you valuing the first round picks at? 100% of the rookie scale or 120%?

More than 95% of the time 1st Round picks get the full 120% rookie scale but until the first round pick is signed his cap hold = 100% of his rookie scale contract... Small difference anyway once you factor the cap holds into my number...
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Re: Help a NET REALGMer out 

Post#14 » by enetric » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:42 pm

No, My spreadhseet used the 100% like you did not the 120% signing they will get.

But I have 3 cap holds in that you do not. 2nd round pick doesnt have cap hit until signed but I believe there is still a cap hold until the spot is filled.

I have the 7 returning players assuming Humphries opts in, and we pick up CDR's option...let Boone walk. Then the two first rounders is 9 spots, added 3 cap holds and that is where I got my number. That number seems to be consistant with most things I have seen in print. They say 26mil, its closer to 27 mil from what I am getting.

Now, I would absolutely love to be wrong here and I am not sure what happens to a cap hold and how it is figured once you sign a guy. As in...OK, filled one spot deduct the salary from cap space. Do you now get the cap hold back since the spot is flled to add to you cap space? If so, then all you ever really need is one cap hold for the last guy signed.

But, I read mostly..."I think so", not sure reactions. Gump would know. I would love to get him to look at the chart and tell us what the real number is.

PS- latest cap projection is 55.89 not 56.2. We'll see after the NBA finals what the final number is.
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Re: Help a NET REALGMer out 

Post#15 » by enetric » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:53 pm

Preludepunk27 wrote:What teams have trade exemptions? It kills me how secretive Rod is, but I'll live with it cause I think he's a great GM.

I'm on the fence about trading Yi still. Now I know this is garbage, but I would try to offer a team CDR/Dooling/Hump for the trade exemption or two a team under the cap. I think that clears the space needed for the 2nd max guy. The only reason I'm still on the fence with trading Yi is because he does provide something nobody in our frontcourt can do which is stretch the defense. Now, if there is a guy at #27 or #31 that is basically a Ryan Anderson or Troy Murphy kind of player (cause I haven't looked) who is at least 6'10" can play tough and has range all the way out to the 3pt line, then I'm more open to moving Yi.

Anyone else find it interesting that David Lee is shooting 500 3's a day this offseason? This is what Twill should be doing as well.

Unless someone covets Dooling and wants to keep his salary rather than buy him out...why take him? Dooling is only costing us the 500K from our cap anyway.

CDR can be let go...we have an option.

So its Humphries that gets us some cash. The only real dent as i see it, is a choice. Yi or Devin. Had we landed Wall, it would have been Devin. But my math says we are about 7 mil short right now, so Yi, and Humphries should get us there. I dont want to dump Yi either...but I prefer Devin stick around with us not landing Wall.

My thought is...Humphries will opt in but shouldnt. I think he can get himself a 3 year deal. But, if he opts in...I think we can flip him for a 2nd rounder to a team under the cap or for a TE as you said.


Yi I think we get a 1st. But I dont think it will be one trade if we go that way.

Another option is a sign and trade for one guy with Devin/Yi going out.
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Re: Help a NET REALGMer out 

Post#16 » by TheNetsFan » Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:35 am

Yi & Humphries, Humphries especially, will be easy to unload if we need to. You can always find a team with cap space left that won't be using all of it, willing to take a guy like Humphries & $3mil in cash for the right to swap 2nd round picks. That being said, I'm sure Thorn & co. are dropping a ton of hints to Hump's agent. Hinting that they'll be drafting Favors & signing a FA PF, so Hump should opt out coming off a decent year, because he's unlikely to get much PT next year.
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Re: Help a NET REALGMer out 

Post#17 » by enetric » Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:40 am

I dont even think we would have to give cash to get it done. I think he is a absolutely a good pick up for 3mil and 1 year. I like what I saw from him. Only reason to make him go away is he is the most expendable guy on our team that has a contract of even decent size. Its him, Yi and Devin that make any sort of dent.
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Re: Help a NET REALGMer out 

Post#18 » by vincecarter4pres » Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:56 pm

A couple things...

There are cap holds up to 12 players, not 13.

Rookie cap holds are 80%, not 100%.

Edit: Nevermind, just looked it up, it is 100%.
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Re: Help a NET REALGMer out 

Post#19 » by enetric » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:05 pm

I just read that cap holds do go away once you fill the slot though. So if you think about it for the second player you need to only keep one hold intact. Sign Lebron, you just added $473,604 to your available cap room.

I have a question. Dooling has the 500K buyout. Once we buy him out, does he hit the cap for 500K only, or do we also have a cap hold for the open spot we just created until we fill it? Hmmmmm....
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Re: Help a NET REALGMer out 

Post#20 » by vincecarter4pres » Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:16 am

You are correct about cap holds going away after signing players, as far as I know, I usually figure it to cap space when running #'s.

Once dooing is bought out, his 500K is on the books, counting against cap space and his abscence from the roster also creates a new cap hold, basically using a million in cap space for no one.
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