Retro POY '89-90 (Voting Complete)

[tkb]

I agree with TLF's list, so I'm going to go with:

1. Magic Johnson
2. Michael Jordan
3. Charles Barkley
4. Patrick Ewing
5. Karl Malone

Pretty clear separation between Barkley at 3 and Ewing at 4 IMO. 1 and 2 could go either way I guess.

[Baller 24]

1) Jordan
2) Johnson
3) Barkley
4) Ewing
5) Malone

[lorak]

Greatest improvements from season to season:

Bucks 1970 - Alcindor 13.8 WS
Celtics 1980 - Bird 11.2 WS
Spurs 1998 - Duncan 12.8 WS
Celtics 2008 - Garnett 12.9 WS

and

1990 Spurs - Robinson 15.1 WS

[Optimism Prime]

Greatest improvements from season to season:

Bucks 1970 - Alcindor 13.8 WS
Celtics 1980 - Bird 11.2 WS
Spurs 1998 - Duncan 12.8 WS
Celtics 2008 - Garnett 12.9 WS

and

1990 Spurs - Robinson 15.1 WS

New additions Terry Cummings, Rod Strickland, Mo Cheeks, and Sean Elliott added a combined 20.2 WS.

Another fun fact: each of the above teams won the championship the next year, except:

-the 2008 Celtics, who won that year
-the 1990 Spurs, who won 9 years later with Duncan added, too.

[lorak]

Greatest improvements from season to season:

Bucks 1970 - Alcindor 13.8 WS
Celtics 1980 - Bird 11.2 WS
Spurs 1998 - Duncan 12.8 WS
Celtics 2008 - Garnett 12.9 WS

and

1990 Spurs - Robinson 15.1 WS

New additions Terry Cummings, Rod Strickland, Mo Cheeks, and Sean Elliott added a combined 20.2 WS.

Yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that Robinson had the best contribution to teams turnaround among these (Bird, Duncan, KAJ, KG) great players.

BTW
Celtics 2008 added 22.3 WS in Allen, Posey, House and Davis.

[Doctor MJ]

The Suns' Pythagorean (expected) wins was actually a hair better, 58.2 to 58.0, as was their SRS.
These were actually the top 2 teams in the league, meeting in the 2nd round.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1990.html

They lost in the very next round to Portland.

Check that link and see that Por was a close #3.
The 3 best teams were all in one division.

Memory tells me the Pistons were the team to beat, all along. Memory is funny, though.

Right, I think he's getting at the Lakers lost, to a team that then lost in the next round, to a team that then lost in the next round. That's some good distance away from the champs.

Also, the fact that SRS says the best 3 teams were from one division, and the survivor of those got defeated with relative ease by the theoretically inferior Pistons doesn't bode that well for SRS.

[Doctor MJ]

2. Michael Jordan. Won it all. Had a good, young team with him. He was great. I have nothing bad to say. But I don't think he was as valuable as Magic.

He won some things; but he didn't win MVP, and he didn't win a title until next year.
This will be the first year in the last 13 that the Finals mvp will not win this poll.

Now I have to ask if use of the word "valuable" should be discouraged (or outright banned) in this project. I see that a lot of voters have mirrored the annual MVP votes; and the V in that has always been the most subjective/volatile component.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but no, we're not going to ban "valuable". This project was actually meant to emulate the MVP but simply correct the glaring flaw of not considering the post-season.

I'll explain a bit here about my philosophy: We're going through the NBA year-by-year. The most critical part of doing this is paying attention to what actually happened that year - what players actually contributed. The emphasis on "valuable" is meant to keep that in everyone's mind. This isn't about what someone could or should have done if only X, this is about what actually happened, and how the player actually helped make their team win.

[Dr Positivity]

1. Jordan - Crazy good year for him. 34ppg .60 TS% in the regular season with a 30 PER and 19 WS, his highest playoff scoring average (37ppg), went toe to toe with a super team. In his prime.

2. Magic - MVP, I think upstairs he's more of a winner than Barkley, so I'll take him here. And as posted he put up huge numbers against Phoenix

3. Barkley - Outstanding year, came within a hair of winning MVP over prime Jordan and Magic despite winning less games, which would've been a crazy achievement. Tough that he'll probably never get higher than 3rd in a year it would appear, but that's the way it crumbles.

Last 2 spots comes down to Ewing, Malone, Robinson, Hakeem and it's tough because they all beasted and it's unbelievable two of these guys could play at such a high level and only be the 6th and 7th best in the league. I think I'll leave Robinson out - I value the experience Ewing/Malone/Hakeem had at this point, plus the MVP and All-NBA indicators aren't as good for him. He's 3rd team All-NBA behind Ewing/Hakeem and finishes 6th in MVP voting which is decent but more questionable when wins bias is included. Ewing beats him handidly despite winning 45 games to Robinson's 56, and Hakeem is right behind Drob despite only winning 41.

Hakeem had a weak playoff performance so I'll leave him out despite an epic 24 points, 14 rebounds, 4.6 blocks a game statline.

So Malone and Ewing. Malone got more MVP love but also won more games. Malone is favored in PER and WS. Ewing's playoff averages look better, but his defensive impact doesn't seem to show up much just looking at the scores of that crazy NY Boston series. Boston had a 157 point game (in regulation!) and averaged 119 points a game overall. Somehow an Ewing Knicks team won a series allowing the other team to average 119 points... lol.

I looked up some of the statlines just by pulling up the youtube videos which usually had the star players stats captioned, Ewing was pretty impressive. Had a 33/19 in Game 3, a 44/13/5 in Game 4, and a 31/8/10 in Game 5. Only Pho Uta game online is Game 5 which I just watched the 4th quarter of. Almost a complete mirror of Game 5 against Houston in 1995. Utah in a home Game 5 are up 10 in the 4th quarter and up 7 with like 5 and a half minutes left. Malone doesn't score from this point until the last 30 seconds to tie the game, albeit he does play a lot more aggresively than in the Houston game, Phoenix just doubles and shuts him down. In 95 it looked like Malone folded mentally and didn't want the ball, I wouldn't say the same about this one, he was looking for it and shooting but the d was ready... if anything I'd call it merely a weakness in his game that he couldn't do find a way to alleviate that Phoenix pressure by creating more shots for his teammates. As a Raptors fan it reminded me of how we go Bosh in crunchtime and he gets stopped easily by the clamping defense, because they know exactly where he's going to set up from and what he's going to do. This makes sense because Bosh's game is sort of like the skinny version of Karl. Phoenix knew Utah was going to post up Karl when things got tight.

The best Jazz player in the 4th is actually Thurl Bailey. The biggest reasons they lose though is Tom Chambers owning particularly in transition, and they foul way too easily, which is my biggest problem with Sloan. Also Stockton is crap on the last play. He goes to triple team in the post and leaves KJ open for the game winner jumper. I'll probably watch Boston NY's 4th quarter later to see how Ewing plays and whether he comes up bigger than Malone and then make my decision then.

[Doctor MJ]

So speaking of SRS, I hadn't realize how massive the SRS difference was between the '89-90 Bulls and the '90-91 Bulls. 2.74 vs 8.57. My impression was that the '89-90 Bulls were almost there, and the next year they improved a bit and other teams had problems. Was it significantly more dramatic than that?

[JordansBulls]

So speaking of SRS, I hadn't realize how massive the SRS difference was between the '89-90 Bulls and the '90-91 Bulls. 2.74 vs 8.57. My impression was that the '89-90 Bulls were almost there, and the next year they improved a bit and other teams had problems. Was it significantly more dramatic than that?

Compare the WS of the top 3 guys on the team.

1990
MJ 19
Grant 8
Pippen 5.7


1991
MJ 20.3
Pippen 11.2
Grant 10.3

[jicama]

So speaking of SRS, I hadn't realize how massive the SRS difference was between the '89-90 Bulls and the '90-91 Bulls. 2.74 vs 8.57. My impression was that the '89-90 Bulls were almost there, and the next year they improved a bit and other teams had problems. Was it significantly more dramatic than that?

In the playoffs, the 1990 Bulls performed very well, relative to their RS. They gave the Pistons their biggest fight.
In '91 as well, and that is relative to a much greater RS.

In general, SRS is nothing but point differential; but when one conference is notably stronger than the other, it matters.
Exceptions still happen, though. The 1983 Sixers were consensus favorites going into the playoffs. An all-time great team, almost a team of allstars.
Their SRS of 7.53 is only 40th-best alltime. Among Sixers teams, that's less than the '81 version (7.76).

Moses averaged 37.6 minutes; next was Erving at 33.6, Cheeks 31.2, Toney 30.5.
Nobody else over 23.6 mpg (Bobby Jones).
All these guys were capable of 35-45 mpg; and in the playoffs, they did what they had to for optimal effect.
In the RS, apparently they just got their 7-10 point lead and maintained it. Not a lot of blowouts.

The 1990 Pistons were also very deep. Maybe they too just played with teams, always several wins ahead in the East for home-court in the playoffs.

[ronnymac2]

What about Larry Bird? He displayed individual excellence in the playoffs with 24/9/9/1/1 on good percentages, though not Larry Bird-percentages. Still, very good. I don't know though. Was he ever really the same Larry Bird after the 6-game 1989 season is my question? I mean, look at the boxscores for this season for Bird.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01/gamelog/1990/

He's still dropping triple-doubles at will, 30/15's, and 40 point games. Shouldn't he get more mention in this thread?

[Gongxi]

1- Michael Jordan. Averaging 34 ppg on 61% TS almost catapults him to the top on its own. 7 rebounds and 6 assists pretty much cements it, and being the best perimeter defensive player (and one of the best in the league) is the icing on the cake. Leading the league in steals and playing every game are just superfluous. For those who enjoy team accomplishments, he was a Pippen migraine from playing in the Finals.

2- Magic Johnson. A point guard that is indeed "pass-first" with a 26.6 PER is kinda ridiculous. His efficiency was absolutely ridiculous for a guard, even if the volume was markedly lower than Jordan's it was still at All-Star level in and of itself. The passing was elite for anyone, historically, and the rebounding was likewise elite among 1s.

3- Charles Barkley. Yeah, this guy is getting screwed between injuries making me rank him lower and running into prime Jordans and Magics, but what are you gonna do? Definitely a better player than where this project will have him ranked eventually, but a very, very solid #3. An easy #1 in many other years.

4- Patrick Ewing. Hits 60% TS for the only the second time in his career. Does it on the largest scoring volume of his career. Averages 4 blocks and anchors a defense. I'm pretty comfortable with Ewing here.

5- Karl Malone. This is close between him and David Robinson, and, to a lesser extent, Hakeem Olajuwon, but his scoring efficiency and volume was approaching Jordan levels here. Still wish I could get Bird or Stockton in here.

[Dr Positivity]

I've heard some people compare where Duncan is right now to post injury Bird. Top 7-10 player probably, can still lead a 50 win team, but no longer a dominant guy or in the conversation for top 5 really, the younger talent is just too good. Still though he probably could've made it in a weaker year like 97 when a past his prime Hakeem, Hill, and Pippen were the 3-5. Funny that Hakeem got major 3rd place votes for 97 and will get next to nothing for 90 when he was clearly the better player... I guess that's how it works

[JordansBulls]

What about Larry Bird? He displayed individual excellence in the playoffs with 24/9/9/1/1 on good percentages, though not Larry Bird-percentages. Still, very good. I don't know though. Was he ever really the same Larry Bird after the 6-game 1989 season is my question? I mean, look at the boxscores for this season for Bird.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01/gamelog/1990/

He's still dropping triple-doubles at will, 30/15's, and 40 point games. Shouldn't he get more mention in this thread?

Not with what happened against the Knicks. They were up 2-0 in that series in round 1 and lost the next 3 including the finale at home.

Celtics were 52-30 that year while the Knicks were 45-37.


Mchale, Bird, Parish, Lewis and DJ all played 75+ games that year.

In that playoffs:

Bird averaged 24/9/9 on 44% with a PER of 21
Mchale averaged 22/9/3 on 61% with a PER of 20
Parish averaged 16/10/3 on 57% with a PER of 19
Lewis averaged 20/5/5 on 60% with a PER of 18
DJ averaged 14/3/6 on 48% with a PER of 12


For the Knicks Ewing averaged 28/10/3 on 52% with a PER of 25 and then Wilkins was the next highest scorer at 15/4/5 on 46% FG with a PER of 16.

[shawngoat23]

Three players clearly differentiated themselves this year (Jordan, Magic, and Barkley), but I think only the two MJs have a legitimate case for #1. When you compare Jordan to Barkley, Jordan has the better all-around stats in the playoffs and post-season, more regular season wins (with a slightly better cast, but an inexperienced one that isn't as good as the names would suggest), and a decisive head-to-head advantage in the playoffs. I don't think "he got only two fewer wins with Hersey Hawkins and Johnny Dawkins" is enough to offset MJ's advantage.

With regard to Michael vs. Magic, I would counter JordansBulls by saying that leading your team to the best record in the league should not be seen as a negative, but as a positive. This 63-win Lakers squad wasn't nearly as talented as the other Showtime teams, but still, Magic had the assistance of James Worthy and Byron Scott (both in their primes), along with Michael Cooper and a host of other serviceable if not spectacular teammates. It's still a better supporting cast than what Jordan had with a young Bulls squad, but at the same time, an eight game difference in the standings is significant and is enough to overcome Jordan's slightly superior regular season stats.

But on the other hand, even though Magic performed admirably in the playoffs and the Phoenix Suns were no pushovers, getting bounced 4-1 in the Western Conference Semifinals is a sore spot on his resume. I think Jordan stepped up his game even more than Magic did and was even more impressive in defeat, culminating in a Game 7 setback against the Bad Boy Pistons in which he performed like a superstar despite the fact that the rest of his team absolutely failed him. It should be noted that the Bulls took three games from the eventual champions in the ECF, who otherwise went 11-2 in the playoffs.

It could go either way, but Jordan was more statistically productive in my opinion, and judging the regular season and playoffs as a whole, put his team in a better position to win the championship despite having what I believe is a weaker supporting cast (this season, certainly not in 1991).

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Charles Barkley - A cut below the top two, but clearly above the rest.

I'm going to give Patrick Ewing and Karl Malone some nods as probably the next two best players this year, but I'm going to put Isiah Thomas at #4, which I'm sure will be a point of contention to a lot of judges this season. Certainly, I don't believe he was the fourth best player for the entire season, but I do believe that for a veteran team like the Pistons coming off a championship the previous ring, their one goal is to defend a ring. Therefore, that is the primray goal by which I judge Isiah, and he was able to help the Pistons do exactly that. Moreover, despite the fact that they beat the Blazers in five, some of those games were bitterly contested until the very end, and my understanding is that Isiah Thomas came up huge in the final moments for several of those games (and in fact, posted 27.6/5.2/7.0 on 62.9% TS for the series). That's enough to take the #4 spot for me.

I'm giving it to Ewing over Malone despite the fact that Malone led his team to more wins and had slightly better advanced stats. This year, the Knicks weren't as talented as the Jazz, and Ewing made it to the second round (losing 4-1 to the Pistons) while the Jazz got dropped in 5 by the Suns in the first round. Ewing's superior presence defensively and his better playoff performance is enough to tip the edge in his favor.

4. Isiah Thomas
5. Patrick Ewing

[kaima]

I've heard some people compare where Duncan is right now to post injury Bird. Top 7-10 player probably, can still lead a 50 win team, but no longer a dominant guy or in the conversation for top 5 really, the younger talent is just too good. Still though he probably could've made it in a weaker year like 97 when a past his prime Hakeem, Hill, and Pippen were the 3-5.

Hakeem's 96:

26.9 PPG, 10.8 REB, 3.6 AST, 1.6 STL, 2.9 BLK, 51.4% FG

Duncan's 09:

19.7 PPG, 10.7 REB, 3.5 AST, 0.5 STL, 1.7 BLK, 50.4% FG

The year prior to 97 Hakeem was close to his prime if not peak; his stats went down largely due to the Barkley trade, coming off the handling by the Sonics in the 96 playoffs.

Duncan hasn't been at peak form for arguably the last four, maybe five, years.

Within the context of Pop "saving" him for the post-season, it then makes it harder to say that Duncan is having a fully dominant season by that very value and standard.

Funny that Hakeem got major 3rd place votes for 97 and will get next to nothing for 90 when he was clearly the better player... I guess that's how it works

Hakeem's regular season that year was far better than Duncan's this year -- or the immediate years prior, as well. Hakeem also again played very well in the playoffs, while Duncan was largely exposed this year against a team that he used to dominate.

Sweep.

I don't see how 10 Duncan is close to 97 Hakeem.

[kaima]

Malone doesn't score from this point until the last 30 seconds to tie the game, albeit he does play a lot more aggresively than in the Houston game, Phoenix just doubles and shuts him down. In 95 it looked like Malone folded mentally and didn't want the ball,

You continue to say this, but I didn't see that in the details of play (after play) on the tape from 95.

I wouldn't say the same about this one, he was looking for it and shooting but the d was ready... if anything I'd call it merely a weakness in his game that he couldn't do find a way to alleviate that Phoenix pressure by creating more shots for his teammates.

When you say stuff like this, you also have to consider team-makeup and the limitations of teammates.

That's what other teams do in gameplanning.

Malone's job is either to score or make a good read on the defense that is swarming. If he does neither, then he is to blame.

I haven't watched much of this yet, so I don't really know.

As a Raptors fan it reminded me of how we go Bosh in crunchtime and he gets stopped easily by the clamping defense, because they know exactly where he's going to set up from and what he's going to do. This makes sense because Bosh's game is sort of like the skinny version of Karl.

Are you thinking of a 39 year old Karl Malone? Because Bosh is not really close to a peak or prime Malone's overall ability offensively.

Bosh is far more of a faceup player, and too limited in his ability in post up situations. Malone had a great ability from many areas on the floor -- high or low, through the pick and roll or simply pop, best big man I've ever seen on the break, and a monstrous game at his peak from the low post. Comparing Bosh to Malone strikes me as laughable.

I just started watching Utah/PHO, and Malone scores on and-1 with literally four Phoenix players on him around the post.

Phoenix knew Utah was going to post up Karl when things got tight.

Again, you treat a rare attribute -- strong or dominant post play -- as a minus. I find this curious.

It's like saying, "The 97 Jazz knew the Lakers would post up Shaq." And....?

The best Jazz player in the 4th is actually Thurl Bailey. The biggest reasons they lose though is Tom Chambers owning particularly in transition, and they foul way too easily, which is my biggest problem with Sloan.

I'm beginning to question Sloan more generally. I think this team was better managed and magnified as a fastbreak unit. Turning them into a halfcourt-oriented team seems to be an example of trying to fix something that wasn't broken.

Also Stockton is crap on the last play. He goes to triple team in the post and leaves KJ open for the game winner jumper.

Don't let Stockton off the hook, but keep in mind that this is often a Sloan trait as far as defensive assignments.

[sp6r=underrated]

I've heard some people compare where Duncan is right now to post injury Bird. Top 7-10 player probably, can still lead a 50 win team, but no longer a dominant guy or in the conversation for top 5 really, the younger talent is just too good.

I've made this comparison before and I've also compared current Spurs to that era Celtics. A smart team that can get by in the RS, but just doesn't have enough for the PS.

Still though he probably could've made it in a weaker year like 97 when a past his prime Hakeem, Hill, and Pippen were the 3-5. Funny that Hakeem got major 3rd place votes for 97 and will get next to nothing for 90 when he was clearly the better player... I guess that's how it works

I don't think either that era Bird or current Duncan could have gotten top 5. TD can't log the minutes any more that are necessary to really be in contention. Kamia posted his pg numbers and he just doesn't play enough to warrant contention. Bird's PS play was erratic from 88 on.

[kaima]

Kind of up and down on Malone's last few minutes out of the post.

Phoenix clearly was focused on him, but Utah gets shots off of this attention. Malone's own forced work is what I question -- but when the shots miss, that's typically the case.

With a little over 5:00 minutes left, Malone tries to work Majerle (yes, Majerle) in the post, with a quick double and a third man waiting in the paint, as he is being held and then hit on the hook -- which misses. Probably should have been foul shots, which is I'm sure what Malone was looking for. Typical for Malone, in that he's concerned with working the refs on a mismatch; didn't work here, even though he was fouled multiple times.

This leads to a Chambers basket on the break, again begging the question as to why a team that was made for running on the other side is walking the ball up every possession, all the while losing the lead they arguably built from breaking. Is Sloan really that great of a coach? I tend to think he improved, because he looks like an imbecile in this game.

Next Utah possession, back to Malone in the post. Gets early, deep position right at the rim. Majerle ties him up. Phoenix foul, but somehow it's not two shots. Very questionable. Probably an outright awful call, because I can't find logic in it -- Malone was going up.

I question the followup play; Malone again takes Majerle in the post, but when Chambers comes on help Malone takes a quick turnaround jumper, which misses. Looking at the tape, it appears he had an easy lane to the basket around Majerle.

The play is made up for on an immediate offensive rebound.

Malone again sets up in the post. But Stockton redirects, and they move to the two man game. Off the pick and roll, the Phoenix defense parts off the Stockton curl, leaving Bailey with a layup that he blows.

Typical, in that every shot I'm seeing from Bailey comes off of action and concern for Malone or Stockton; they were largely spoon-feeding him his points off of presence and play-making.

On the Phoenix possession, they again get a quick-hitter. Hornacek screens for Chambers, and Bailey inexplicably goes high rather than low, leaving Tom with an easy layup.

Next play for Utah, Phoenix gives Bailey the lane because they're so focused and concerned with Malone. Hornacek reaches in, and fouls Bailey. Two shots at the line.

Skip ahead.

Stockton pick and rolls with Bailey. Leads to Kevin Johnson on Thurl; literal single coverage, straight up, and Bailey fails to score on Johnson. Ugh.

Off of a Phoenix TO, Utah sets up with Malone in the post. Perhaps too high, again there's immediate, physical coverage on Malone; he elbows Chambers off the double, quickly raises on the jumper, and is blocked by Mark West.

Funny thing, all this action allows Bailey to recover the miss and get an uncontested layup. Real ugly assist for Malone, uncredited.

I'll finish the game later. There's about two minutes of game time left.

But while Malone doesn't score over this stretch, what I'm seeing is a post presence that is such a concern he still creates for his role player teammates. Bailey scored quite a bit, but every shot he's made has come from Malone (and Stockton).

The sign of a star making a teammate appear a lot better than he is.