Retro POY '88-89 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 best player seasons of '88-89. Some pointers:

-Change in schedule. We will now operate by splitting the week into thirds: Mon-Wed, Wed-Fri, Fri-Mon. I will label each thread with it's deadline.

-The voting panel is not officially closed. However, if you'd like to be a part of it, contact me - more dedicated, knowledgeable voters will always be wanted.

-This includes both regular and post-season. You should be weighing both in to some degree, and should not be ranking one star over another just because of how far each got in the playoffs.

-Vote sincerely. Do not move a player down in your voting to give another player an advantage. I would encourage every voter to give some explanations while they do their voting - but particularly if you have a top 5 that deviates strongly with the norm and you haven't expressed your thoughts on it earlier in the thread. If I'm not satisfied, I may ask you for more of an explanation - and it may come to actually booting people out of the project.

Some things to start us off:

Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1989.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1989.html
Award Voting http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... _1989.html

Topics for '88-89

-Detroit breaks through
-Impact of Laker injuries in finals
-6 seed Bulls upset 2 teams, become the only team to take a game off the Pistons.

[jicama]

Three distinct tiers to the contestants this year.
Tier 1 has quite a contrast in itself.

Code: Select all

   33.3      Michael Jordan      Chi                 
89   eWins   G   Min   Eff%   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk   e484
RS   23.2   81   40   .601   33.5   8.0   7.2   2.7   3.4   .8   3.45
PS    5.0   17   42   .586   35.5   6.7   7.0   2.3   3.7   .7   3.39
                                 
   22.4      Magic Johnson      LA                 
89   eWins   G   Min   Eff%   Sco   Reb    Ast   Stl   TO   Blk   e484
RS   17.4   77   37   .610   24.3   8.0   11.6   1.8   4.0   .3   2.93
PS    2.5   14   37   .594   19.8   6.3   11.0   1.9   3.8   .2   2.33

Without making the Finals, Jordan was in more playoff games than Magic.
Hardly any other greats made any dent in the postseason. Next, 3 bigs:

Code: Select all

   18.6      Karl Malone      Uta                 
89   eWins   G   Min   Eff%   Sco    Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk   e484
RS   17.5   80   39   .577   30.9   10.5   2.6   1.7   3.5   .8   2.71
PS     .6    3   45   .561   24.8   13.3   1.1    .9   3.8   .3   1.96
                                 
   18.5      Charles Barkley      Phl                 
89   eWins   G   Min   Eff%   Sco    Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk   e484
RS   17.1   79   39   .634   27.2   12.4   3.6   1.5   3.1   .8   2.68
PS     .7    3   45   .669   27.6   10.0   4.3   1.5   3.2   .6   2.57
                                 
   18.4      Akeem Olajuwon      Hou                 
89   eWins   G   Min   Eff%   Sco    Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk   e484
RS   16.7   82   37   .540   23.9   13.4   1.7   2.6   3.4   3.5   2.67
PS     .9    4   41   .540   23.0   12.9   2.7   2.4   2.4   2.6   2.62

Only Akeem won so much as one PS game.
KJ leapfrogs the other premier PG, who through no fault of his own was an early out in the playoffs.

Code: Select all

  17.3      Kevin Johnson      Phx                 
89   eWins   G   Min   Eff%   Sco   Reb    Ast   Stl   TO   Blk   e484
RS   12.9   81   39   .583   19.6   3.9   10.3   1.6   3.8   .3   1.97
PS    2.2   12   41   .601   22.7   3.7    9.9   1.5   4.3   .4   2.15
                                 
   17.1      John Stockton      Uta                 
89   eWins   G   Min   Eff%   Sco   Reb    Ast   Stl    TO   Blk   e484
RS   15.6   82   39   .609   19.3   3.0   13.0   3.1   3.7    .2   2.39
PS     .7    3   46   .582   22.6   2.7   10.6   3.1   3.1   1.4   2.55


[JordansBulls]

1. M.Jordan - Finished 2nd in MVP voting, Led in Win Shares on the season and WS per 48 minutes, Led in Season PER. Led the league in scoring in the season and playoffs. Was 1st in Playoff PER, 1st in Playoff WS, 1st in WS Per 48 minutes. All NBA 1st Team And 1st Team Defense

vs. Cleveland, 1989: 40 pts/6 reb/7 ast/53% FG
vs. NY, 1989: 37 pts/10 reb/9 ast/52% FG

Won both of those series without HCA and was the only one to even beat the Pistons in the playoffs that year.


2. Magic Johnson - Finished 1st in MVP voting, was 2nd in Win Shares in the season, 3rd in season PER and 2nd in WS Per 48 minutes. Was 2nd in Playoff Win Shares and 5th in season PER. Was 3rd in Playoff PER. All NBA 1st Team.


3. Charles Barkley - Finished 6th in MVP voting, Tied for 2nd in Win Shares, and 2nd in PER, and 3rd in WS per 48 minutes, All NBA 1st Team


4. Hakeem Olajuwon - Finished 5th in MVP voting, All NBA 1st Team, finished 3rd in Playoff PER, All NBA 1st Team


5. Karl Malone - Finished 3rd in MVP voting, All NBA 1st Team. 5th in season Win Shares and 5th in season PER, All NBA 1st Team


HM: Patrick Ewing - Finished 4th in MVP voting, All NBA 2nd Team and 2nd Team Defense, Isiah Thomas

[shawngoat23]

I'll round out my ballot later, but this is clearly a two-horse race for #1 between Magic and Jordan here (who happened to be the top 2 candidates).

I think there are a lot of interesting, unique factors at play here:

1) This is clearly Jordan's best statistical season (33/8/8/3/1), but part of it was because he played PG towards the end of the season. IMO, he was more statistically productive than Magic at that position, but clearly, didn't have the same team success (Bulls won 47 games, including around .500 with MJ at PG), whereas the Lakers won the West with 57 games (decreased from the previous two championship years, but clearly, they weren't playing for the regular season).

How do you weigh Jordan's superior statistical production with a weaker supporting cast versus Magic's ability to lead a better ensemble of teammates to greater regular season success? How much of that can be attributed to Magic's superior ability to "make his teammates better" (not that Jordan wasn't good at that in his own right), and how much of it could be attributed to the fact that old Kareem, prime Worthy, Scott, Cooper, et al were superior to a second-year Pippen and Grant?

2) The Central Division was absolutely loaded. The Bulls finished 5th of 6th teams with 47 wins. They boasted the top 2 records in the NBA (Pistons and Cavs, latter of which was tied with the Lakers), as well as two of the top 3 SRS (Cavs at #1, Pistons at #3).

3) The Bulls went on a remarkable playoff run, taking out the Cavs in the first round and the Knicks in the second, and in the process, produced one of the most iconic images of MJ ever ("The Shot") before falling to a Pistons machine 4-2. Interestingly enough, the Pistons did not lose a game to any other team in the playoffs.

Also curiously, the Lakers had their own "fo', fo', fo'" going, sweeping the Blazers, Sonics, and Suns before getting swept by the Pistons in the Finals. Does that prove the superiority of the Eastern Conference this year? Perhaps, but I'm not convinced, because the Lakers lost Byron Scott to injury during their playoff run, and Magic himself was lost to injury during the Finals.

4) How do you weigh the postseason performances of these two guys? IMO, the advantage goes to Jordan, because he boosted his statistical production (35/7/8), produced incredibly in the clutch, and led a young overachieving Bulls squad to the ECF and put up more of a fight than the injury-depleted Lakers were able to in the Finals. Interestingly enough, MJ led all players in playoff WS (almost doubling the next guy), despite getting bounced in the ECF, which is rare for a player that doesn't reach the Finals; but on the other hand, the Bulls actually played as many games as the Pistons and more than the Lakers because the two Finals contenders were involved in so many sweeps.

Certainly, you have to consider that the Lakers were hampered by injury, but do you dock Magic for being injured when his team needs him, or do you attribute him more "credit" than he actually produced because he probably would have been able to do better had he not had such bad luck? As unfair as it may seem, I think you need to dock him.

5) The ultimate question, of course, is whether that's enough to put MJ over Magic. I'm really conflicted by that. I'm a bit biased because Jordan is my favorite player, but Magic is definitely up there among them as well, and I try to be as objective as possible in evaluating players. I feel it's a fair question to ask, because the MVP balloting was so close (664.5-598.8 in favor of Magic), and I think the playoffs at least narrows the gap between the two, if it doesn't tip it in favor of MJ. I'm waiting to hear more feedback on this before I chime in with my official ballot.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Beating two 50 win teams in a row without HCA is remarkable to say the least. I would say that MJ did enough to overtake Magic at #1. Magic's injury was unfortunate, but it happened, and LA lost in the Finals. MJ's 32/8/8 staline was a great individual performance, way too ball-dominant, but needed for that roster, and appropriate for the 1 on 5 system they ran under Collins.

One has to wonder how things would have turned out if Collins had stayed in Chicago.

[lorak]

1. M.Jordan - Finished 2nd in MVP voting, Led in Win Shares on the season and WS per 48 minutes, Led in Season PER. Led the league in scoring in the season and playoffs. Was 1st in Playoff PER, 1st in Playoff WS, 1st in WS Per 48 minutes. All NBA 1st Team And 1st Team Defense

vs. Cleveland, 1989: 40 pts/6 reb/7 ast/53% FG
vs. NY, 1989: 37 pts/10 reb/9 ast/52% FG

And 29.7 PPG and below 50% FG against Pistons. He also had many tournovers.

[JordansBulls]

1. M.Jordan - Finished 2nd in MVP voting, Led in Win Shares on the season and WS per 48 minutes, Led in Season PER. Led the league in scoring in the season and playoffs. Was 1st in Playoff PER, 1st in Playoff WS, 1st in WS Per 48 minutes. All NBA 1st Team And 1st Team Defense

vs. Cleveland, 1989: 40 pts/6 reb/7 ast/53% FG
vs. NY, 1989: 37 pts/10 reb/9 ast/52% FG

And 29.7 PPG and below 50% FG against Pistons. He also had many tournovers.

He averaged 35/7/8 on 51% for the entire playoffs and the only ones to beat Detroit.

[semi-sentient]

What a disappointing finish for the Lakers. They swept everyone's asses up until the Finals (8.7 MOV), where they managed to get swept. The injuries to Byron Scott (didn't even play in the Finals) and Magic Johnson (injured in Game 2) were super costly, and for what it's worth, Magic's numbers took a nice dive overall due to his injury games (2 and 3). Before that he was brilliant (21 PTS, 62% TS, 7 REB, 13 AST, 2.5 STL).

Anyway, the Lakers were up in Game 2 when Magic got injured, and ended up losing the game by a measly 3 points with Worthy being the lone offensive weapon left.

They barely lost Game 3 by 4 points with Magic trying (unsuccessfully) to play through the pain, and barely lost Game 4 by 8 points as well.

There is no question in my mind the that the Lakers would have won if healthy. What a bummer of a series this turned out to be.

[JordansBulls]

What a disappointing finish for the Lakers. They swept everyone's asses up until the Finals (8.7 MOV), where they managed to get swept. The injuries to Byron Scott (didn't even play in the Finals) and Magic Johnson (injured in Game 2) were super costly, and for what it's worth, Magic's numbers took a nice dive overall due to his injury games (2 and 3). Before that he was brilliant (21 PTS, 62% TS, 7 REB, 13 AST, 2.5 STL).

Anyway, the Lakers were up in Game 2 when Magic got injured, and ended up losing the game by a measly 3 points with Worthy being the lone offensive weapon left.

They barely lost Game 3 by 4 points with Magic trying (unsuccessfully) to play through the pain, and barely lost Game 4 by 8 points as well.

There is no question in my mind the that the Lakers would have won if healthy. What a bummer of a series this turned out to be.

I pulled for Magic to win every time the Bulls were out of the playoffs. I was pissed when Detroit won at the time.

[thegreatblaze]

Drexler and his 27/8/6 with 2.7 steals and 50% deserve at least a HM (even though the Blazers had a down year)

[sp6r=underrated]

One thing that is clear to me doing this project, for your historic reputation, it is far better to peak in an offensive era rather than a defensive era. Now, this is a chicken-egg question. Are time periods dominated by offenses because the quality of the players is higher or are the rules and coaching strategy such that scoring is easier? I think it is mostly the later.

I'd being interested in posts about the 1989 Jazz:

Utah was coming off a season when they pushed the 88 lakers to the brink (one of the weaker champions in NBA history but I digress), and with a young core seemed ready to make the leap. They did win 4 more games and made a improvement in point differential. In the first round, they got swept by GSW.

For those who saw the series what happened, a sweep to a 43 win team, that entered the PS on a 6 game losing streak and just got crushed by Phoenix.

BTW: Everyone of us has noticed Malone's crazy longevity. He finished 3rd in MVP voting this year and won the award a decade later.

What went wrong?

[AKfanatic]

Sorry to sneak in here, I just wanted to give all of you guys mad love for this. I've been following it since you started..and while I don't agree with everyone, it's been absolutely awesome reading the opinion of EVERYONE of you. Keep it up, by far one of the most interesting things i've read on RealGm.

[ronnymac2]

What went wrong?

Not to go ot, but....I finished The Wire.

[sp6r=underrated]

What went wrong?

Not to go ot, but....I finished The Wire.

Easily one of my favorite shows of all time.

Which was your favorite season?

Mine was season 3 rise of Marlo and the fall of the Barksdale organization.

Who was your favorite character?

[Doctor MJ]

Sorry to sneak in here, I just wanted to give all of you guys mad love for this. I've been following it since you started..and while I don't agree with everyone, it's been absolutely awesome reading the opinion of EVERYONE of you. Keep it up, by far one of the most interesting things i've read on RealGm.

Thanks AK. Feel free to join in the discussion at any time. Voting may be closed, but that doesn't mean you can't speak your mind if you want.

[Dr Positivity]

It's sort of sad to see Sampson as a 6/5 bench guy on that Warriors playoff roster, 5 years removed from coming into the NBA as one of the most highly hyped prospects of all time and a guy supposed to dominate and change the sport. It'd be like if by 08 Lebron was a shell backing up Luol Deng in Chicago and putting up 4 points, 4 rebounds.

I also just found out Sampson and Joe Barry Carroll were traded for each other. Awkward.

[Doctor MJ]

It's sort of sad to see Sampson as a 6/5 bench guy on that Warriors playoff roster, 5 years removed from coming into the NBA as one of the most highly hyped prospects of all time and a guy supposed to dominate and change the sport. It'd be like if by 08 Lebron was a shell backing up Luol Deng in Chicago and putting up 4 points, 4 rebounds.

I also just found out Sampson and Joe Barry Carroll were traded for each other. Awkward.

Yeah it's guys like Sampson that make me want to slap anyone who says "bust" in the vicinity of LeBron's name.

[ronnymac2]

Easily one of my favorite shows of all time.

Which was your favorite season?

Mine was season 3 rise of Marlo and the fall of the Barksdale organization.

Who was your favorite character?

It has completely ruined Law and Order SVU for me. I can't watch it anymore without thinking of The Wire. Stabler is to McNulty as Harold Minor was to Jordan.

Yeah, season three was raw as hell. I'm partial to season five because I'm majoring in English and sort of heading towards journalism, so five was cool. Plus the plan by Lester "Bill Russell" Freamon and McNutty was insane. I feel like I learned a lot about the **** nobody sees in season four, and I appreciate season four a lot.

Chris, Stringer, and Bunk were probably my favorite characters. Haynes the editor, too. Who was yours?

[toodles23]

While I can't vote on this, Jordan should be #1 over Magic this year, IMO - the reason being that Magic was a sub-par defender by this point, and against speedy point guards (I'm thinking the KJ/Isiah type), he was practically a liability. It didn't hurt the Lakers enough that it caused them to lose a series (Injuries were probably the biggest reason for the loss in the Finals), but since this is strictly about individuals, I feel like the difference on defense is enough to put Jordan over Magic this year. Magic had a really good year, was voted MVP, and led his team to the finals, so I can see the case for Magic and I respect anybody's opinion who chooses him - I don't agree with it, but I respect it.

[Optimism Prime]

Michael versus Magic for the top spot again. 32/8/8/3 on .614 (35/7/8/2 on .602) with PER of 31.1/29.9 and WS of 19.8/4, against 22/8/13/2 on .625 (18/6/12 on .609) with PER of 26.9/23.4 and WS of 16.1/2.2.

I'm getting tired of saying this... but it has to be Michael for me. No, Jordan hadn't become the absolute winner he became two years from now, but... he's still a force of nature.

Malone, Ewing, Olajuwon, and Barkley are fighting for 3-5. That was their order in MVP voting, but...

Jazz got swept.
Ewing's numbers dropped.
76ers got swept.
Rockets out in 4.

Strange that the Jazz got swept when Malone AND Stockton both increased their numbers an insane amount. I'd love to throw Olajuwon in above the rest due to team loyalty--and I could justify it over Barkley/Malone by saying "well at least he WON a game"... but I won't stoop to that. Ewing at 3 because he advanced; Olajuwon at 4 because of his insane defensive numbers (14 rebounds, 2.6 steals, 3.4 blocks. Get out!), Malone because even though he got swept... I don't know what else he could've done.

Sorry Chuck, maybe next year.

Ballot:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Patrick Ewing
4. Hakeem Olajuwon
5. Karl Malone