Retro POY '88-89 (Voting Complete)

[mysticbb]

Ok, however 2010 finals are slightly slower.
But ok, paces are comparable, so really line
29.6, 5.5, 6.5
is so better than
29.5, 6.8, 4.2
?

Those numbers are looking similar, but Jordan played indeed better against a better perimeter defensive team. Jordan didn't take long jump shots, but attacked the basket and opened up opportunities for his teammates with that. Paxson had a couple of wide open looks in game 6 for example. Jordan had 32 points in that game 6, 13 assists while Pippen was out due to getting an elbow in the face in the opining minutes of that game.

Jordan in 1989 was easily better than Bryant today.

Especially when we consider that Bulls system was ball dominant, I mean Jordan was like LeBron, high usage guy who plays a lot with the ball. On the other hand Kobe is in a system when sharing the ball is more common.

The system looked only similar to the Cavs when the Bulls looked for a faster game, when Jordan looked for early offense. In set plays Jordan was running around screens rather than dribbling the ball on the top of the key. Jordan had the ball in his hand more often, but that Bulls supporting cast was also worse than that of the Cavs in this season.

The only real difference is in FG%, but every possible team defensive stats shows that 2010 Celtics are better defensive team than 1989 Pistons.

In terms of what? Overall defense? Maybe, but the Celtics are especially better as interior defense team, but on the perimeter those Pistons with the Jordan rules were better than the Celtics today. Especially when we keep in mind that Bryant had his best games (the last two) when the Celtics exactly tried to focus more on the interior defense, when Garnett was mainly focussed on shutting Gasol down. There was NOBODY on the Bulls who was able to get that much defensive attention as Gasol got.

And keep in mind that we are comparing here Jordan at his absolute prime with Kobe after his prime, or near end of it, with bad knees or fingers ; )

Yeah, and Bryant is worse, he doesn't play as smart as Jordan did. Jordan didn't took those bad shots as we saw Bryant took so many in that series already. The lucky thing for Bryant was until now that they went in more often than usually.
Overall Jordan played more efficient against a team which only had one mission: Stop Jordan! The Celtics today want to stop the Lakers as a team, not Bryant alone as a player.

And let us not forget that those Celtics today also are past their primes with Garnett have knee problems, Ray Allen being 100 yrs old and now Perkins being out. You really think that this team is as good defensively as the 1989 Pistons?

[JordansBulls]

1. M.Jordan - Finished 2nd in MVP voting, Led in Win Shares on the season and WS per 48 minutes, Led in Season PER. Led the league in scoring in the season and playoffs. Was 1st in Playoff PER, 1st in Playoff WS, 1st in WS Per 48 minutes. All NBA 1st Team And 1st Team Defense

vs. Cleveland, 1989: 40 pts/6 reb/7 ast/53% FG
vs. NY, 1989: 37 pts/10 reb/9 ast/52% FG

It was actually 40 pts/6 reb/8 ast vs. the Cavs.

Thanks.

[kaima]

Well let's see:

In '89, Detroit's playoff pace was 88.9, Chicago's was 91.1. This year, Boston's is 89.5, Lakers' is 89.9. So we're almost certainly really not talking about a huge difference here in terms of pace adjustment.

Ok, however 2010 finals are slightly slower.
But ok, paces are comparable, so really line
29.6, 5.5, 6.5
is so better than
29.5, 6.8, 4.2
?

Especially when we consider that Bulls system was ball dominant, I mean Jordan was like LeBron, high usage guy who plays a lot with the ball. On the other hand Kobe is in a system when sharing the ball is more common.

The only real difference is in FG%, but every possible team defensive stats shows that 2010 Celtics are better defensive team than 1989 Pistons.

And keep in mind that we are comparing here Jordan at his absolute prime with Kobe after his prime, or near end of it, with bad knees or fingers ; )

Pace is one thing, but the more important differential in era or outlook is hand-checking.

Jordan was taking a huge amount of hits, while nobody can breathe on a perimeter player today.

[kaima]

I'm going to look for visual evidence, as well as print, on what happened to Utah.

But my memory's basic outline of the event includes such issues as Golden State negating Eaton's value to basically nil (kept him on the perimeter), packing the paint against Malone (who still scored in bunches), with added rim protection from Manute Bol, then resulting in Utah being a two-man team to an almost ludicrous extent.

Formative years from my perspective, to say the least. Kid's stuff. Don't so much remember what I saw as what people said.

[lorak]

I'm going to look for visual evidence, as well as print, on what happened to Utah.

But my memory's basic outline of the event includes such issues as Golden State negating Eaton's value to basically nil (kept him on the perimeter),

I have started watching G3 of that series recently and that’s true. Eaton was kept on perimeter, so he was basically useless.

But what really happened to Utah was unstoppable offensive force – Chris Mullin. He scored 41 pts in G1 and was amazing in G3. Here’s his highlight from 1st quarter of game3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmguGGQz2v8

Besides Jazz supporting cast was awful. Eaton from obvious reason, but lets look at others:
Griffith 15.3 PPG, .469 TS%
Bailey 12 PPG, .443 TS%
Hansesn 11 PPG, .419 TS%

[semi-sentient]

1988-89 Candidates

Regular Season

Code: Select all

Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Magic    77  37.5  22.5  .625   7.9  12.8  1.8  0.3  4.1  16.1  26.9
Jordan   81  40.2  32.5  .614   8.0   8.0  2.9  0.8  3.6  19.8  31.1
Barkley  79  39.1  25.8  .653  12.5   4.1  1.6  0.8  3.2  16.1  27.0
Hakeem   82  36.9  24.8  .552  13.5   1.8  2.6  3.4  3.4  12.4  25.2
Ewing    80  36.2  22.7  .607   9.3   2.4  1.5  3.5  3.3  10.9  22.1
Malone   80  39.1  29.1  .592  10.7   2.7  1.8  0.9  3.6  15.2  24.4

Post Season

Code: Select all

Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Magic    14  37.0  18.4  .609   5.9  11.8  1.9  0.2  3.8  2.2   23.4
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Magic    13  39.4  19.8  .615   6.4  12.6  2.1  0.2  4.1  ?.?   ??.?
Jordan   17  42.2  34.8  .602   7.0   7.6  2.5  0.8  4.0  4.0   29.9
Barkley  3   45.0  27.0  .691  11.7   5.3  1.7  0.7  3.7  0.6   24.3
Hakeem   4   40.5  25.3  .549  13.0   3.0  2.5  2.8  2.5  0.6   24.1
Ewing    9   37.8  19.9  .536  10.0   2.2  1.0  2.0  1.7  1.0   19.1
Malone   3   45.3  30.7  .574  16.3   1.3  1.0  0.3  4.3  0.4   22.1

Awards Recognition

Code: Select all

Player      MVP     DPOY   All-NBA   All-Defense
================================================
Magic       1       -      1st       ---
Jordan      2       5      1st       1st
Hakeem      5       2      1st       ---
Ewing       4       6      2nd       2nd
Barkley     6       -      1st       ---
Malone      3       -      1st       ---

This is another tough choice between #1 and #2. In a vacuum, Jordan is the better player, but the reality is that these guys aren't being judged in a vacuum or if they were playing a 1-on-1 match. The impact that Magic had on his teammates is undeniable and unfortunately not something that shows up in statistics, and that's the main reason I like him over Jordan. Magic was the better offensive player and especially leader, and as usual, Jordan the better defensive player. However, when it comes to guards there's not that big of a difference because as we all know guards don't have that huge of an impact anyway, and Jordan was no exception. The Bulls were still a mediocre defensive team and this is one thing I knocked KG for in the 00's. If you're not making that big of an impact on your team defensively, then I see no advantage there. IMO, the impact that Magic had on offense outweighs the advantage that Jordan had on the defensive end, and while I can't really prove that either way, that's just the generally feeling that I had then as well as now.

As I mentioned earlier, the injury situation is the main reason that Magic's numbers dropped off in the post-season. In game 3 where he played 5 minutes, he was 0-2 with 1 assist and nothing else. That had a pretty significant impact on his overall numbers, in addition to being limited in game 2 where we was putting together a very nice game before the injury. Anyway, that's something to consider, at least it's something I considered hence the reason I showed Magic's post-season numbers through 13 games. I bring it up because I usually do see what players do from RS to PS, and in this regard Magic has a slight advantage.

After that, I'm going with Barkely because he was absolutely insane once again, at least on the offensive end. I could have just as easily gone with Hakeem for his two-way play, but this time I'll side with Sir Charles.

Ewing and Malone are left battling for the #5 spot, and I'll probably go back and forth with this until the deadline. Ewing was a solid two-way player, and while Malone was a great offensive player he didn't have the impact of Ewing and the support around him (Stockton, Eaton, Bailey) was strong enough to make me wonder why in the world the Jazz got swept by an inferior team in the first round. I'll guess we'll see what other arguments are presented here.

Anyway, these are my rankings as of now:

1. Michael Jordan
   
   
2. Magic Johnson
   
   
3. Charles Barkley
   
   
4. Hakeem Olajuwan
   
   
5. Patrick Ewing

Edit: For now, I'm going to leave Malone and Ewing battling it out at the #5 spot. Malone had a tremendous season and right now I'm favoring him slightly. I'd like to hear more about Ewing and see if there is any reason to put him over Malone outside of being a very solid two-way player this year.

Edit: Updated my rankings and put Jordan at #1 and Magic at #2. All things considered, I have to knock Magic down a little for not being able to finish things off. It's not really his fault, but then it's not really Jordan's fault that he lost to the Piston's either, and he was really phenomenal this year. Had Magic not been injured and gotten the Lakers a title, he'd be the #1 guy. It's that close between those two. At the end of the day the only way I think Magic could have come out on top was to outdo Jordan by winning a championship over the Pistons, and he just couldn't due to his hamstring injury.

Edit: I'm going with Ewing at #5.

[Doctor MJ]

The only real difference is in FG%, but every possible team defensive stats shows that 2010 Celtics are better defensive team than 1989 Pistons.

And keep in mind that we are comparing here Jordan at his absolute prime with Kobe after his prime, or near end of it, with bad knees or fingers ; )

Well, while overall defensive quality matters, how much attention the guy gets by the defense is also huge.

If Michael was at the point, we forced him left and doubled him. If he was on the left wing, we went immediately to a double team from the top. If he was on the right wing, we went to a slow double team. He could hurt you equally from either wing -- hell, he could hurt you from the hot-dog stand -- but we just wanted to vary the look. And if he was on the box, we doubled with a big guy.

The other rule was, any time he went by you, you had to nail him. If he was coming off a screen, nail him. We didn't want to be dirty -- I know some people thought we were -- but we had to make contact and be very physical.

Let's also keep in mind that Jordan's primary defender was Dumars, who is clearly superior defensively to any swingman the Celtics have.

Again, to me just seems crazy to effectively call Jordan's stats inflated because of easy defense. If there's any defense in history more geared toward stopping a perimeter player, I haven't heard of it.

Re: Primes. Nah, Kobe's doing as well as ever. Yes he put up his big regular season stats in '06, but his playoff stats have gone up with time. Honestly, this says some great things about him: He's so skilled, and so practiced at taking tough jump shots, that he doesn't need athleticism that much.

[ItsMillerTime]

1. Jordan - His D puts him over Magic for me
2. Magic
3. Hakeem - His D puts him over Malone, Barkley, and Ewing for me
4. Mailman
5. Barkley

HM- Ewing, Drexler, KJ, Stockton, Mullin

[TrueLAfan]

1. Michael Jordan. One of his best years. Probably the last (or first, depending on how you look at it) time he'll be at #1. What a run.
2. Magic Johnson. I think he was slightly less valuable--and, yeah, I'm gonna use that term--than in 1990, just because he was asked to do so much more that eyar on a substantially worse team. (The fact that “statistical analysis” shows that the 1990 Lakers other than Magic were good shows the secondary, non-statistical impact of Magic.) Anyway...suffers only by comaprison here. Was having (another) great playoff run before the injury, too.
3. Karl Malone. The Jazz just got ambushed by the Warriors...that's all there is to it. The Warriors went small, and the Jazz couldn't stay with them on the perimeter. Terry Teagle and Mitch Richmond must have scored 150 points in those 3 games...and that's leaving out Chris Mullin, who was a one-man wrecking crew. But Malone did his part, as did Stockton. And Malone had contend with Manute Bol, and Malone still shot more and scored 31 a game in the series. I had Malone over Stockton during the season, and it's the same here.
4. Hakeem Olajuwon
5. Charles Barkley. Hakeem or Charles? Charles or Hakeem? Similar strength supporting casts (Otis Thorpe, Sleepy Floyd, and Mike Woodson vs. Mike Gminski, Hersey Hawkins and Mo Cheeks). Similar team records. I kind of think I'm taking Hakeem because of what I knew he'd do later...at the time, I'm thinking I considered Barkley a whisper better. So close. Might change my mind on this one.

HM: Ewing (tho' he didn't rebound), Stockton, KJ

[mysticbb]

This is another tough choice between #1 and #2. In a vacuum, Jordan is the better player, but the reality is that these guys aren't being judged in a vacuum or if they were playing a 1-on-1 match. The impact that Magic had on his teammates is undeniable and unfortunately not something that shows up in statistics, and that's the main reason I like him over Jordan. Magic was the better offensive player and especially leader, and as usual, Jordan the better defensive player. However, when it comes to guards there's not that big of a difference because as we all know guards don't have that huge of an impact anyway, and Jordan was no exception. The Bulls were still a mediocre defensive team and this is one thing I knocked KG for in the 00's. If you're not making that big of an impact on your team defensively, then I see no advantage there. IMO, the impact that Magic had on offense outweighs the advantage that Jordan had on the defensive end, and while I can't really prove that either way, that's just the generally feeling that I had then as well as now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiFdhGOG6M4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60XIzix3PlE

I don't see much of a difference in terms of offense, but I see that Jordan is able to help his team winning twice against the Lakers and Magic doesn't.

[Dr Positivity]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson

Magic had a great year, but Jordan's my pick. He has the edge in advanced stats like WS and PER and is the better defensive player, this is by far his best rebounding (he grabs more than Magic!) and assist year (with that crazy PG run). But moreso than that the reason I can't pick Magic is his finals injury. I heavily weight playoff injuries. If you're not playing when it matters, that hurts badly. Now in Magic's case I'm not putting him any lower than 2 because he was only hurt a couple games and only missed 1 outright, and this came after everyone else was eliminated, so w/e. But theroetically if in a vacuum you're choosing between Jordan and Magic to win you a title - You take Jordan because he'll be healthy in the finals. But I'd probably have picked him without that anyways.

After that the candidates are Barkley, Hakeem, Ewing, Malone. What else is new? Barkley has the best advanced stats. Best ORTG in the league, 2nd best offensive WS and tied for 2nd in overall WS, 2nd in PER and by far the best TS% in the league with .653, Magic is actually 2nd with .625. Noteably stats play to Barkley's strengths and away from his weaknesses (defense). Hakeem is the dominant defensive player and kills in DWS and DRTG. He gets 3.4bpg and 2.6spg, the latter easily the best rate in his career. One thing I like about Hakeem this year is he gets to the FT line 8 times a game which is the best in his career, and he hits a solid 70% for a big man. However he's not the most efficient scorer.

Karl Malone has another old reliable season. 5th in PER, 5th in WS, 3rd in MVP voting. 29/11 .60 TS%. I do find it weird a Stockton Malone team could finish 17th in offensive rating, but OTOH they were 1st defensively, so I suppose d was the coach's focus. Getting swept by the Warriors is not good, but it wasn't really his fault as much as the team set-up and that matchup.

Ewing had a good season. 23/10/3.5 on .60 TS%, which is much greater than Hakeem's efficiency. His DWS is a lot weaker. But just judging from the numbers - This team was offensively minded. They had a top 5 pace in the league. They shot BY FAR the most 3s. They had 1147 3PA, 2nd place had 824, 3rd was 774, 4th was 681 and then things tricked down from there. So they shot 68% more 3s than the 4th ranked 3PA team. Judging by the numbers these Knicks were the retro version of the the 08-10 Magic as a sort of gimmicky, 3 pt shooter + big man in the middle lineup. Except they'd rank bottom 3 in the league in 3PA if they played today! Defensively they were really bad at defending agianst eFG, but were fantastic at forcing TOV%, which Ewing's blocks helped. As a result they finished 10th in DRTG despite an out of the top 20 eFG. So I'd say Ewing had sufficient impact there. With that said, 10.9 WS is pretty mediocore overall and I don't really like that defensive eFG number with Ewing anchoring it.

Clyde had a really impressive 27/8/6/2.7 statline, however the Blazers won 39 games as a result of a coaching change halfway through. Considering this is the one year in this stretch the Blazers aren't 49 wins+ good, I'm guessing they tuned out on Mike Schuler. I don't like rewarding players or teams in seasons where they give up on their coach.

I'll go Barkley and Malone 3rd and 4th. Who gets the edge? Well both teams got swept, but Philly's is a lot more excusable, both losing to the superior Knicks and that was a close series anyways. The last two games were decided by 1 point. I might watch their 4th quarter later, they're probably good ones. Malone's sweep wasn't *really* his fault, but he didn't have a "there's no **** way we're getting swept by the Warriors, WTF" performance either. 22 PER. Good, not outstanding for his standards. Barkley's numbers against the Knicks were better. I'm giving Barkley the edge.

5th down to Hakeem and Ewing. This is kind of weird because Ewing has the better offensive stats but I would otherwise venture Hakeem had the better offensive skillset. And Hakeem has much better defensive stats but I would otherwise venture young Ewing is his near equal there. So I'm going to bypass the stats and say Hakeem was the better player, his weaker efficiency is in part due to more pressure.

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Barkley
4. Malone
5. Hakeem

[semi-sentient]

I don't see much of a difference in terms of offense, but I see that Jordan is able to help his team winning twice against the Lakers and Magic doesn't.

That didn't seem particularly relevant to you in the 05-06 thread when you voted Dirk #1 and Kobe #4 despite Kobe trashing the Mavs and winning 2 out of 3.

[mysticbb]

I don't see much of a difference in terms of offense, but I see that Jordan is able to help his team winning twice against the Lakers and Magic doesn't.

That didn't seem particularly relevant to you in the 05-06 thread when you voted Dirk #1 and Kobe #4 despite Kobe trashing the Mavs and winning 2 out of 3. ;)

Ah, didn't know that Bryant led the league in Win Shares in the regular season and playoffs in 2006. And next time I will pay more attention how Nowitzki is defending Bryant, because it seems like it is his job to be a perimeter defender.

You realise the difference here? Nowitzki in 2006 is the Jordan in 1989 and Bryant 2006 is the Magic, except, Bryant had no team success whatsoever, and Jordan like Nowitzki only lost to the eventual champion.

And your argument was that Magic made his teammates better. Well, if Jordan would have had Magic's teammates on the Bulls, I'm sure the 1989 champion would have been the Chicago Bulls. Jordan did everything, he played point guard and defended Magic. Look up the the turnover Magic had in those games. And we all know that Magic had only impact on offense. Seems like the impact isn't as big when Jordan defended him.

The thing is pretty easy. Jordan showed that he can do the same as Magic when he is playing the point guard role on offense. 30/10/12 over a 19 game span as a point guard is better than anything Magic ever done. Take the defense into account and this should be rather easily Jordan in 1989. But well, you already had Magic at #1 as he was weaker and had less team success than Jordan in 1990, thus it is not surprising that you are going with the Laker again.

[semi-sentient]

Sorry, I'll try to vote based on PER and WS in the future so I don't have to use my brain at all.

Feel free to criticize TrueLAFan and a few others for giving Magic a vote in 1990 as well since you're suggesting I'm biased. That should be very interesting.

BTW, my initial vote is usually never my final vote, and in lots of years I have changed my mind before the final tally. I go by what I remember feeling at the time first, then listen to the evidence and analysis provided by others. That's what I did in 1990 when I decided to switch my vote as I had been favoring Jordan until the final day. If people can make solid arguments that aren't based purely on PER and WS, which is not how I vote to begin with (and IMO WS are BS to begin with), then I'm going to be more easily persuaded. This particular year I put Magic above Jordan to start, but in no way does that mean it's my final ranking. There is still game footage to watch and plenty of other things to consider such as comments and game analysis from other voters.

[mysticbb]

Sorry, I'll try to vote based on PER and WS in the future so I don't have to use my brain at all. :(

Lol, typical stupid comment by someone who has no further arguments. Just show me how Johnson was able to defend and disrupt an offense, maybe that would be a start, if you like to use your brain. Isn't it true that Jordan done the same as Magic as a point guard on offense? Except that Jordan scored a bunch of more points? Really, how can someone have more impact on offense, if they basically doing the same, but one has to score more, because he was in fact by far the best scorer on that team?

Well, but maybe Magic made Kareem scoring better or Worthy. You really want to argue like this? What would the Lakers have done in 1989 with Jordan instead of Magic? I know for sure that with Magic instead of Jordan those Bulls would have had a hard time to survive the first playoff round. Because instead of passing the ball to competent teammates, Magic would have had to score 30+ ppg.

Feel free to criticize TrueLAFan and a few others for giving Magic a vote in 1990 as well since you're suggesting I'm biased. That should be very interesting.

I wrote my arguments in that thread already. Except of Unbiased Fan nobody tried to challenge one of those.

[semi-sentient]

Lol, typical stupid comment by someone who has no further arguments.

What is there to argue?

Using PER and WS to rank players is not something that I do.

Just show me how Johnson was able to defend and disrupt an offense, maybe that would be a start, if you like to use your brain.

I never made that claim, did I? I stated pretty clearly that Jordan was the better defender. I also stated that the Bulls were an average, at best, defensive team and so it's pointless for me to look further into Jordan's "disruptive" defense when they weren't that great to begin with.

Or do you actually believe that Jordan's defense had that big of an impact that I should consider it?

If that's the case, then why did the Bulls suck so bad defensively the following season? They were BELOW average in 1990, so did Jordan suddenly regress or does it perhaps have to do more with teammates than his individual impact? I think the latter is true.

Isn't it true that Jordan done the same as Magic as a point guard on offense?

... and if Jordan had done that for an entire season he'd get more credit for it. It's also worth mentioning that the Bulls went 7-6 during that 13-game stretch where Jordan averaged a triple-double, so there's more to consider than just his raw numbers. No matter the case, that's a positive on Jordan's record and something that I'll keep in mind.

Except that Jordan scored a bunch of more points? Really, how can someone have more impact on offense, if they basically doing the same, but one has to score more, because he was in fact by far the best scorer on that team?

Because Jordan spawned an entire generation of goons that believe points and PER is the most important thing? Scoring points is great, but even better is a guy that can score points more efficiently while also being a floor general that gets everyone else involved at the same time.

I would take Magic over Jordan for that exact reason because I believe, and witnessed, how he impacted the game outside of just scoring. Magic was very capable of putting up more points than he did, but that wasn't his game and it wouldn't have been the best thing for the team.

Well, but maybe Magic made Kareem scoring better or Worthy.

No, he just made it easier for them. Both guys were great players already, but you can't dismiss the amount of easy buckets due to being on the receiving end of a masterful Magic Johnson pass. You might as well also include guys like Scott who regularly got wide open looks as a result.

You really want to argue like this?

As opposed to arguing who had more "win shares"? Absolutely.

[Baller 24]

Haven't had much time lately, but based off of what I've been reading and glancing by team records, accolades, and statistics....
1) Jordan
2) Johnson
3) Malone
4) Olajuwon
5) Barkley

[mysticbb]

Or do you actually believe that Jordan's defense had that big of an impact that I should consider it?

Obviously he was able to limit the influence of Magic in those games against each other, he forced turnovers which disrupted the offensive flow of the Lakers. The Lakers couldn't do the same to the Bulls as Jordan played point guard in that one game (scoring more points and dishing out more assists than Magic, btw.). Jordan obviously had the ability to make it easier for his teammates to score and led his team to those two wins in the regular season against the Lakers. Jordan done that with two different ways, one time he acted as the scorer and in the other game he facilitated the offense. The result was the same. A win for the Bulls.

If that's the case, then why did the Bulls suck so bad defensively the following season? They were BELOW average in 1990, so did Jordan suddenly regress or does it perhaps have to do more with teammates than his individual impact? I think the latter is true.

Well, you want to imply that Jordan didn't have positive impact on defense? Well, seeing how the Lakers struggled on offense, because Magic wasn't really able to make that entry pass due to Jordan's defense and seeing that the Bulls forced Magic to be more of a scorer in that other game, it is quite fascinating how you came to that conclusion. Especially when we are comparing the impact of two specific players here: Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan.

Now you claimed Johnson had the bigger impact on offense and that this difference was bigger than the advantage of Jordan on the defensive end. Well, as I said I can't see any evidence for Magic having a bigger impact, but I can see that Magic had the better teammates. Also Magic wasn't able to slow Jordan down.

... and if Jordan had done that for an entire season he'd get more credit for it. It's also worth mentioning that the Bulls went 7-6 during that 13-game stretch where Jordan averaged a triple-double, so there's more to consider than just his raw numbers. No matter the case, that's a positive on Jordan's record and something that I'll keep in mind.

Collins changed that against Seattle for the first time, playing Jordan as point guard was necessary, because the offense struggled with the ball more in the hand of Vincent. With Jordan they improved. It is also a fact that most of those losses came on the road or against the two best teams in the east (Cleveland and Detroit), thus I don't see you argument about the record being valid here.

Because Jordan spawned an entire generation of goons that believe points and PER is the most important thing? Scoring points is great, but even better is a guy that can score points more efficiently while also being a floor general that gets everyone else involved at the same time.

Well, Jordan won 6 championships in that way. Maybe you are underestimating the value of those things here. And PER didn't exist at this time anyway. The first time I read something about PER was in the early 00's, a couple of years after I witnessed Jordan and how he destroyed the Lakers in the 1991 finals. But well, maybe I just have the wrong memories here.

I would take Magic over Jordan for that exact reason because I believe, and witnessed, how he impacted the game outside of just scoring. Magic was very capable of putting up more points than he did, but that wasn't his game and it wouldn't have been the best thing for the team.

I gave you the chance to see how Jordan done the same thing AND limiting Magic, seems like it doesn't matter to you much. But it is ok, a strong belief is probably good, who cares about evidence at all?

No, he just made it easier for them. Both guys were great players already, but you can't dismiss the amount of easy buckets due to being on the receiving end of a masterful Magic Johnson pass. You might as well also include guys like Scott who regularly got wide open looks as a result.

Did you saw the easy buckets for Cartwright, Paxson or Grant? All off passes from Jordan? It might be easier to get some assists, if the receiver of the pass is named Abdul-Jabbar or Worthy. But we can blame Jordan for his worse teammates, is that the case here?

As opposed to arguing who had more "win shares"? Absolutely.

Did I argue with Win Shares in the first place? I posted the videos of the two games between the Lakers and the Bulls in that season, that was my argument for Jordan having at least as big of an impact as Magic. Your response was "Kobe scored 62 on the Mavericks in 2006". No idea what that had to do with my argument in the first place. But mabye you might tell me what should have been the reason for putting Bryant at #1? What outside of his scoring brought he to the table in that season? Maybe you are one of those goons? ;)

[semi-sentient]

Obviously he was able to limit the influence of Magic in those games against each other, he forced turnovers which disrupted the offensive flow of the Lakers.

That's fine, but why should I consider their head-to-head match up when it was only 2 games?

Again, if that means so much to you, then I'll refer to 05-06 where Kobe trashed the Mavericks with scoring games of 62 and 43 points. Would it be safe to say that Kobe was considerably better on offense because of those two games, or should I look more at what happens over the course of a season? I know you don't think that, so why should two 2 games matter to me?

I'm looking at what happened from start to finish, not head-to-head match-ups.

The Lakers couldn't do the same to the Bulls as Jordan played point guard in that one game (scoring more points and dishing out more assists than Magic, btw.).

Why emphasize scoring more points when he scored 1 more point in 3 more minutes, on 7-20 shooting compared to Magic's 7-13?

Well, you want to imply that Jordan didn't have positive impact on defense?

No, you're putting words in my mouth. He does have a positive impact and the Bulls would have surely been worse if they had, say, Clyde Drexler. Defense is something that I do weigh in, but if the team is bad/average defensively, then I'm not going to give it all that much weight especially when we're talking about two perimeter defenders. Still, Magic and Jordan are pretty close offensively speaking and Jordan was without question the better defender, and so it's something that I have to think about carefully. I do value offense more than defense when it comes to individual players though, so we'll see what happens.

Now you claimed Johnson had the bigger impact on offense and that this difference was bigger than the advantage of Jordan on the defensive end.

The Lakers had the best offense in the league and the Bulls were average on defense. Yes, teammates definitely factor into the equation, but the bulk of the credit for the Lakers being such a great offensive team has to go to Magic. When the Bulls were winning titles and the Bulls where near the top of the league in both defense and offense, Jordan likewise got all the credit.

Well, as I said I can't see any evidence for Magic having a bigger impact...

Best offense in the league, for like, the entire decade?

, but I can see that Magic had the better teammates. Also Magic wasn't able to slow Jordan down.

But Jordan slowed down Magic?

Magic
20 PTS (.639 TS%), 12 AST, 8 REB, 2 STL, 0 BLK, 7 TOV
31 PTS (.706 TS%), 12 AST, 4 REB, 3 STL, 0 BLK, 2 TOV

Jordan
42 PTS (.642 TS%), 8 AST, 7 REB, 4 STL, 0 BLK, 1 TOV
21 PTS (.446 TS%), 16 AST, 8 REB, 1 STL, 0 BLK, 5 TOV

It is also a fact that most of those losses came on the road or against the two best teams in the east (Cleveland and Detroit), thus I don't see you argument about the record being valid here.

It's valid because they also played 5 teams with losing records, including road loses to IND (25-52) and NJN (26-52). The 3 teams they beat at home weren't that hot either GSW (38-31), NJN (24-49), and CHA (17-55). My point? It all balances out at the end. They beat some tough teams, and they lost to some crappy ones. The end result is still 7-6 which isn't very impressive.

Well, Jordan won 6 championships in that way.

... and he got my vote all 6 times when he did win.

I gave you the chance to see how Jordan done the same thing AND limiting Magic, seems like it doesn't matter to you much. But it is ok, a strong belief is probably good, who cares about evidence at all?

You gave me a two game sample.

Can I convince you that Kobe was CONSIDERABLY better than Dirk on offense based on him scoring 62 points in 3 quarters or 43 points in another game against the Mavs? No, I didn't think so.

I posted the videos of the two games between the Lakers and the Bulls in that season, that was my argument for Jordan having at least as big of an impact as Magic. Your response was "Kobe scored 62 on the Mavericks in 2006". No idea what that had to do with my argument in the first place.

You want me to base my vote on what Jordan did in the 2 games that he matched up with the Lakers, and I came back and asked you why you voted for Dirk when Kobe destroyed the Mavs in their head-to-head match ups?

I don't have any problem with you voting for Dirk, to be honest, but I do have a problem with you telling me to look at the results of the Jordan/Magic meetings to convince me that Jordan was better while turning a blind eye to what happened in the Kobe/Dirk meetings.

But mabye you might tell me what should have been the reason for putting Bryant at #1? What outside of his scoring brought he to the table in that season? Maybe you are one of those goons?

In retrospect, that's one of two seasons that I regret (2001 being the other). If I could go back, I'd probably change my vote to Wade, and I went back and forth between he and Kobe that season. I also regret putting Duncan over Dirk, as I was a little too harsh on him for failing in the Finals.

Anyway, outside of his scoring, which was a bit more than what Dirk provided -- just not quite as efficient, he was responsible for running the offense and being more of a floor leader than at any point in his career. That sounds completely crazy considering his scoring output, but this was the season that Smush, Odom, Kwame, and other players got their first taste of the triangle under Phil. He pretty much had to score, but at the same time he had to be more of a floor leader and get people in the right spots, something that proved difficult consider the cast he had.

Never mind his ability to collapse defenses (which focused more on him than Dirk, without question) or ability to get to the line more frequently. Now if you don't think the ability to attack the hoop relentlessly has much of an impact, then Dwyane Wade, the 2005-06 Finals MVP, says wuzzzzaaaaaaap.

This is why I have a problem with looking at numbers only though. Do you think that Dirk would have had a bigger impact on those Lakers? Dirk is not capable of producing the way Kobe did that season.

Oh, and there were those two months where Kobe scored 40+ PPG with the same efficiency as Dirk.

Still, I don't have a problem with you choosing Dirk because he was great that season. You have your criteria and I have mine.

The fact that you think the only thing Kobe did was score though is rather troubling considering he had more responsibility than just that, although his scoring was completely out of necessity.

That's all besides the point though and I'm not going to talk about Kobe/Dirk anymore as that's just going to derail things, but I needed to make the point that head-to-head (especially regular season) match ups are kind of pointless in this instance.

[ronnymac2]

I agree with you guys - great show. I remeber that I was sad several days when they killed Bodie : (

Yeah, Bodie was a cool character. That was a game-changing event.



Wow, Retro POY '88-89 in the thread.....I thought this said "Thoughts on The Wire"....oops....okay.

No Bird. Missing 76 games in the regular season even gets my attention.

The contenders are Jordan, Hakeem, Malone, Barkley, Drexler, Ewing, and Isiah. I'll laugh my usual laugh at the mention of John Stockton's name.

Just a little interesting thing I see....Moses Malone was still a 20/12 big man in the season AND playoffs. Insane rebounding and ability to get to the line. Even got a few MVP votes.

Magic Johnson would be my number one player. At worst, number two. But he got hurt in the finals and couldn't finish out the series. That's critical. I don't think he can make my cut. I'll do more research on it though.