Retro POY '88-89 (Voting Complete)

[Dr Positivity]

I'm on Season 3 of The Wire right now. I've done a pretty good job avoiding the posts in this thread though...

[mysticbb]

That's fine, but why should I consider their head-to-head match up when it was only 2 games?

The main purpose was to show the influence for both in those games, I wanted to show you that Jordan was easily capable of doing the same thing as Magic did and being able to win the games against a superior team. Can you at least acknowledge that the Lakers support was better than the Bulls support?

And seeing what Jordan did with that support (going to the ECF) is quite more impressive than what Magic did. In the end Jordan was able to beat the Pistons, Magic wasn't (and I'm not only talking about the playoffs here).

Again, if that means so much to you, then I'll refer to 05-06 where Kobe trashed the Mavericks with scoring games of 62 and 43 points. Would it be safe to say that Kobe was considerably better on offense because of those two games, or should I look more at what happens over the course of a season? I know you don't think that, so why should two 2 games matter to me?

Over the course of the season Jordan beat out Magic in terms of stats rather easily. No idea, but that wasn't the case for Bryant. Even though you don't like those advanced stats, but they are showing the best correlation to winning of any boxscore based stats, Nowitzki had the higher PER and WS in the regular season and playoffs. In fact Nowitzki had the second highest WS value in the playoffs ever. Bryant couldn't compete in terms of that and the +/- stats didn't favour Bryant either. In the Jordan vs. Magic comparison Jordan was the player with the higher PER and WS in the regular season and playoffs, not Magic. Thus all hard evidence showed that Jordan was better than Magic. Well, I knew that and I guess you aren't blind either, thus I brought up the games to show the effect Jordan had.

(Btw: Just to bring it up, because I mentioned it earlier, in my stats (I called that PRA (player rating)), Jordan finished the season with 22.4 and Magic with 21.8 (league average is 10), as I said before I constantly have both players closer together than PER or WS indicate and I treat them like that).

Bryant beating the Mavericks had also less to do with Nowitzki, because it wasn't Nowitzki's job to keep him under control. That perimeter defense was one of the biggest weaknesses of the Mavericks due to the fact that neither Harris nor Terry were able to defend bigger shooting guards at the perimeter. The Mavericks had that problem until they finally solved it at the start of the last season by aquiring Shawn Marion.
And it wasn't Bryant either who defended Nowitzki, thus I see no point in arguing here with a h2h matchup, because in fact it wasn't one. Put Bryant on Nowitzki and see how Nowitzki destroys him. It is rather simple. The same goes for the opposite scenario, Nowitzki can't defend Bryant, that should be obvious. But it was different for Magic and Jordan, Jordan was able to defend Magic while Magic wasn't able to defend Jordan despite the fact that both played similar positions.

Why emphasize scoring more points when he scored 1 more point in 3 more minutes, on 7-20 shooting compared to Magic's 7-13?

Jordan needed more shots to score, but his passing game was better. As I said Jordan beat the Lakers in two different ways in those games. Jordan was able to get his teammates open shots and they converted them. The result were 16 assists, and that doesn't even account for those possessions in which Jordan initiated the offense by drawing double teams.

No, you're putting words in my mouth. He does have a positive impact and the Bulls would have surely been worse if they had, say, Clyde Drexler. Defense is something that I do weigh in, but if the team is bad/average defensively, then I'm not going to give it all that much weight especially when we're talking about two perimeter defenders. Still, Magic and Jordan are pretty close offensively speaking and Jordan was without question the better defender, and so it's something that I have to think about carefully. I do value offense more than defense when it comes to individual players though, so we'll see what happens.

I agree with that part, I obviously just disagree with your evaluation of Jordan's offensive impact in comparison to Magic's. I think Jordan was at the same level offensively and got the edge due to better rebounding and better defense in overall impact. The point which catched my eyes most was your argument, that the difference on offense was bigger than that on defense. That's what I questioned most and wanted to show you via those two games against each other. I most certainly wouldn't base my whole voting just on those two games.

The Lakers had the best offense in the league and the Bulls were average on defense. Yes, teammates definitely factor into the equation, but the bulk of the credit for the Lakers being such a great offensive team has to go to Magic. When the Bulls were winning titles and the Bulls where near the top of the league in both defense and offense, Jordan likewise got all the credit.

Ok, that is fine, but I think you should also look how they played without Jordan. There was a reason that Jordan played the most minutes in the regular season and playoffs in the entire NBA that season. The Bulls without him were clueless. The sophomores Pippen and Grant were far away from their abilities they later had, but Pippen was already the 2nd best player on that team. I think you are underestimating Jordan's impact due to the lesser amount of wins. But look up what he did in the playoffs when the Bulls beat two higher seeded teams and were the closest to beat the Pistons in the playoffs during their two championships runs (except for the Bulls one year later).
I think that should be valued higher than what we saw in the regular season.

And as I pointed out the Lakers lost ALL games that season to the Pistons. I also think that the Western Conference wasn't that strong in that season, thus I don't value the 10 more wins that much.

Best offense in the league, for like, the entire decade?

Yes, and I give Magic a lot of credit for this, but that Lakers team was also loaded offensively. It is much easier to improve a team with players like Abdul-Jabbar (even in that age) or James Worthy, Byron Scott than what Jordan had until 1990 (the players didn't change, but they were rather raw before). You should also keep in mind that the Lakers had Pat Riley in 1989 as a coach, someone with championship experience, Collins was just in his 3rd year and on his first coaching stint ever. Better team, better coach and an incredible player like Magic that was the reason for that. Give Jordan similar circumstances and he would have done similar things, as I said I even think the Lakers would have won it all in 1989 with Jordan instead of Magic. No disrespect to Magic, who also suffered that injury.

But Jordan slowed down Magic?

I didn't say that explicit. I said that Jordan forced the turnovers and disrupted the offensive flow of the Lakers. That's what we were able to see. Magic could score very efficient, but he had the bigger impact when he was allowed to set his teammates up. That wasn't so easy against the Bulls, in fact in one game additonal to his 7 turnovers he had also several possessions in which he had to break up and reset the offense, because Jordan was all over him. At the end of that home game they forced Magic to beat the Bulls with scoring, but he also missed that one free throw which would have meant the tie.
Well, Jordan didn't slow Magic down in terms of scoring efficiency, but he was the reason the offensive power of the Lakers wasn't able to get going.

Btw: I watched those games on tape in 1991 for the first time, because I had no access earlier. Quite amazing, I watched those regular season games between the Lakers and the Bulls and also the finals 1991 just on tape. A friend of mine got them from a family member, it was amazing to watch that. I had no idea that someone can play basketball like Jordan and Magic did. Well, the friend was a Lakers fans, I had to choose the other team. ;)

It's valid because they also played 5 teams with losing records, including road loses to IND (25-52) and NJN (26-52). The 3 teams they beat at home weren't that hot either GSW (38-31), NJN (24-49), and CHA (17-55). My point? It all balances out at the end. They beat some tough teams, and they lost to some crappy ones. The end result is still 7-6 which isn't very impressive.

In those 19 games (Seattle to New Jersey) in which Jordan posted 31/10/12 the Bulls played 11 times on the road. They lost 8 times, 6 were on the road, the other two losses were against Detroit and Cleveland. 3 of those losses also came on 2nd nights of b2b games. Well, a 11-8 record doesn't scream crazy, but that is exactly the overall win% the Bulls had for the rest of the games too. And keeping that road-heavy schedule in mind I'm fine with that. What did you expect? That the Bulls all of the sudden are going to win 80% of their games, when they usually won 57%?

Can I convince you that Kobe was CONSIDERABLY better than Dirk on offense based on him scoring 62 points in 3 quarters or 43 points in another game against the Mavs? No, I didn't think so.

Bryant didn't defend Nowitzki and Nowitzki didn't defend Bryant. Bringing that up doesn't make any sense.

You want me to base my vote on what Jordan did in the 2 games that he matched up with the Lakers,

No, I just wanted to show you those videos and make the comment that I didn't see the difference on offense, but I saw that Jordan was able to help his team winning. Nothing more. I don't expect that you change your vote, because you voted already for Magic in 1990 while the difference was bigger in favour of Jordan in 1990. Thus expecting a change of the vote would be foolish.

This is why I have a problem with looking at numbers only though. Do you think that Dirk would have had a bigger impact on those Lakers? Dirk is not capable of producing the way Kobe did that season.

Actually I really think that Nowitzki could have given the Lakers overall more success in that season. On the first glance you might think I'm crazy, but keep in mind that Nowitzki would have had a defensive C next to him in Brown, in no way worse than Diop for example. He also would have had Odom, a player who can handle the ball very well (no worse than Howard), and that FC with Brown/Nowitzki/Odom would have been huge. The Lakers could have afford to play Devean George as the two, similar to what he did one year later on the Mavericks. The problem would still be the point guard position, but I think with Nowitzki instead of Bryant they could have find a different option for that than Parker.

Anyway, Nowitzki would have been great in the TPO, just like a bigger and better version of Tony Kukoc. How much better the TPO works with a big who can stretch the floor was later seen when Vladimir Radmanovic played on the Lakers. The spacing, one of the most crucial parts of the TPO, would have been great with Nowitzki. Most likely Nowitzki wouldn't have been close to those 35 ppg, but that wasn't really necessary. Nowitzki was able to do similar damage even though he scored less points as we saw that in the +/- numbers.

Oh, and there were those two months where Kobe scored 40+ PPG with the same efficiency as Dirk.

I value that scoring season higher than Chamberlain's 50+ppg season, but I had a problem with Bryant in the way he played. I always had, probably because I held him to a higher standard. As he entered the league back in 1996 I really thought that kid would be once better than Jordan. He had all the talent for that, he came somewhat close, but never really. He had great offensive seasons, but in those he wasn't really good defensively. And especially in 2006 I thought his defense was bad. He used too much energy on offense and was busy taking bad shots over two or three defenders. You are right, the defense paid more attention to Bryant, but at the end he didn't use that really smart. He wasn't very eager to pass the ball to open teammates, thus the attention he got just ended in a bad shot too often. I think Nowitzki would have played smarter with the same supporting cast, expecially with a coach like Phil Jackson, Nowitzki never had such a coach.

That's all besides the point though and I'm not going to talk about Kobe/Dirk anymore as that's just going to derail things, but I needed to make the point that head-to-head (especially regular season) match ups are kind of pointless in this instance.

I got your point, I guess.

[ronnymac2]

I'm on Season 3 of The Wire right now. I've done a pretty good job avoiding the posts in this thread though...

Haha You should have said something. Although, really important parts weren't revealed anyway....

Who is your favorite character thus far?

[ronnymac2]

Ranking subject to change....I might not be able to submit a final ranking. If I can't, just take this.

Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Charles Barkley
Patrick Ewing
Karl Malone

[sp6r=underrated]

On The Wire

Favorite Characters: Stringer, Lester, McNulty
Favorite Quote: A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the sh-t that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come
Favorite Individual Storyline: The transformation of Bodie

[shawngoat23]

Would this be a year you could make a case for Stockton over Malone? I'm not a big fan of advanced stats, but he does lead in WS and WS/48, plus he played a lot better in the playoffs (although there's a small sample size).

[Gongxi]

Ranking subject to change....I might not be able to submit a final ranking. If I can't, just take this.

Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Charles Barkley
Patrick Ewing
Karl Malone

...No Magic?

[Doctor MJ]

Would this be a year you could make a case for Stockton over Malone? I'm not a big fan of advanced stats, but he does lead in WS and WS/48, plus he played a lot better in the playoffs (although there's a small sample size).

Well, I wouldn't feel comfortable saying he played a lot better in the playoffs. The Jazz didn't win a game, and Malone put up huge numbers too so you can't say they got swept because Malone choked. I think whoever you pick based on the regular season takes it for all season.

[ronnymac2]

On The Wire

Favorite Characters: Stringer, Lester, McNulty
Favorite Quote: A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the sh-t that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come
Favorite Individual Storyline: The transformation of Bodie

Too **** good, man. Omar had lots of awesome quotes, too.


Gongxi- I don't know. Let me rethink this. Magic had an amazing season and was tied for first in my book as the best actual player this year with Jordan. He got injured in the finals to the extent that he couldn't continue playing. The only precedent I have with that is D-Wade in 05, but he at least came back in game 7 of the ECF. Magic missed his team's last game. It's rare to have a player get injured during the post-season and he doesn't return.

Magic can't be above Jordan at this point. Jordan is close enough where the injury plays. Can Magic outrank Hakeem, Charles, Patrick, and Malone?

He didn't miss the whole playoffs. He missed one finals game. Well, two, sort of. Two and a half....I'm not comfortable taking that over Hakeem and Barkley. I can put Magic fourth, I guess. I'm not really in love with the season of Malone and Ewing. Where is Ewing's rebounding? Where is Malone's passing? A weakened defensive anchor and a weakened offensive anchor make Ewing and Malone- not the Ewing and Malone I know.

I'm still putting Ewing over Malone. If Malone is just a scorer/finisher, he's not really an offensive anchor. I'll take what Ewing brings over what Malone brings. Barely.


Okay. Final Ranking:

Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Charles Barkley
Magic Johnson
Patrick Ewing

[bastillon]

1.MJ
2.Dream
3.Magic (injury)
4.Barkley
5.Ewing

not a great year.

[TMACFORMVP]

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Hakeem
4. Barkley
5. Ewing

[kaima]

Not understanding all the Ewing votes for this year. Seems like arguments and ideas are bleeding over from other years. Ewing wasn't that spectacular individually, nor were the Knicks an outstanding defensive team, at least by stat-tracking.

Ewing averaged 22.7 and less than 10 a night. Barkley, Malone and Olajuwon were all far more impressive as individuals.

Ewing's shot blocking numbers are nice (3.5 per, third in the NBA), but there's little sense of this transmogrifying the Knicks into a defensive squad above or even with the elite. The Rockets were the 4th best defensive squad, Utah was number 1 ( Eaton, though Malone was even then a tough defensive presence himself; and the point remains that there is no statistical evidence that Ewing's D was leapfrogging Malone's overall contributions).

The 6ers were, admittedly, a miserable defensive squad.

Hakeem was first in defensive win shares. Malone was 2nd. Ewing wasn't in the top five.

Many people overrate great Cs versus great 4s. Ewing is enjoying some of that treatment, in my estimation. There's a simplified assumption -- throw out the word 'defense', and that justifies, as well as makes up for, all -- that isn't really being argued in a detailed manner, either by the numbers or through video analysis.

The first two slots are a battle between MJ and...MJ. It's a three man race for the other three -- Malone, Barkley, Olajuwon.

Did a rundown on regular season matchups. As I've made clear in other threads, I don't take a whole lot from this type of matchup -- as opposed to a mano-a-mano showdown in the playoffs -- but I will take it into consideration, to a degree, when that's all we have. As far as Barkley V Ewing in the playoffs, I might post some articles; may be too late to find any tape.

Mail V Ewing

Malone: 37 PPG, 10.5 REB, 2 AST, 1.5 STL, 0 BLK, 53.2 FG%, 23.5 FGA, 80% FT, 15 FTA

Ewing: 19 PPG, 7 REB, 3.5 AST, 2 STL, 4 BLK, 46.6 FG%, 15 FGA, 83.3 FT%, 6 FTA

Series record: 1-1

Ewing V Round

Barkley: 30.8 PPG, 11.3 REB, 3.6 AST, 1.8 STL, 1.8 BLK, 67% FG, 15.2 FGA, 80.7% FT, 12.6 FTA

Ewing: 25.6 PPG, 10.6 REB, 3.5 AST, 0.6 STL, 3.5 BLK, 70.2% FG, 15.2 FGA,77.3% FT, 5.6 FTA

Series record: 4-2 PHI

Chuck V Dream

Barkley: 24 PPG, 11 REB, 2.5 AST, 1 STL, 0.5 BLK, 43.5% FG, 11.5 FGA, 87.1% FT, 15.5 FTA

Olajuwon: 18 PPG. 11.5 REB, 0.5 AST, 2 STL, 1.5 BLK, 43.2% FG, 18.5 FGA, 50% FT, 4 FTA

Series record: 2-0 PHI

Dream V Mail

Malone: 30.2 PPG, 10.6 REB, 2.6 AST, 2.8 STL, 0.8 BLK, 55.5% FG, 18 FGA, 80% FT, 12.5 FTA

Olajuwon: 26.5 PPG, 13.3 REB, 1.3 AST, 3.5 STL, 3.5 BLK, 46.2% FG, 22.3 FGA, 65.9% FT, 8.8

FTA

Series record: 4-2 UTA

Mound V Mail

Barkley: 24 PPG, 8.5 REB, 3 AST, 3.5 STL, 1 BLK, 51.4% FG, 17.5 FGA, 61% FT, 9 FTA

Malone: 38 PPG, 13 REB, 3 AST, 2.5 STL, 1.5 BLK, 66% FG, 19 FGA, 74.3% FT, 17.5 FTA

Series record: 1-1

Ewing V Dream

Ewing: 17 PPG, 5 REB, 0 AST, 1 STL, 2.5 BLK, 40% FG, 15 FGA, 76.9% FT, 6.5 FTA

Olajuwon: 28.5 PPG, 20.5 REB, 2 AST, 3 STL, 2 BLK, 60.4% FG, 21.5 FGA, 45.4% FT, 5.5 FTA

Series record: NY 2-0

Cumulative

Malone: 33.1 PPG, 11.1 REB, 2.6 AST, 2.5 STL, 0.8 BLK, 57% FG, 19.3 FGA, 79.3% FT, 14 FTA

Overall record: 6-4

Ewing: 22.6 PPG, 8.8 REB, 2.8 AST, 1 STL, 3.4 BLK, 59.6% FG, 15.1 FG, 77.9% FT, 5.9 FTA

Overall record: 4-6

Barkley: 28.1 PPG, 10.7 REB, 3.3 AST, 2 STL, 1.4 BLK, 59.7% FG, 14.9 FGA, 84.8% FT, 12.5 FTA

Overall record: 7-3

Olajuwon: 25.2 PPG, 14.3 REB, 1.3 AST, 3.1 STL, 2.8 BLK, 45.8% FG, 21.4 FGA, 61.1% , FT, 7.2 FTA

Overall record: 2-8

The point seems to hold about Ewing when looking at these, admittedly flawed by sample rate and ratio, numbers between frontcourt comp.

[kaima]

I'm still putting Ewing over Malone. If Malone is just a scorer/finisher, he's not really an offensive anchor. I'll take what Ewing brings over what Malone brings. Barely.

Again, don't get it.

Malone created a lot of shots through post ability. From what I've seen from this period, Malone creates a lot of good positional offensive possibilities for those around him, and makes quick reads that complete the deal.

Stats aren't necessarily going to tell us that, however.

Malone became a truly great passer later on, but passing needs (gag) an assist from other dominant skillsets to create a dominant or high-value facilitator; the ability to consistently score on any defense, even being covered by three, maybe four, guys is one example. Malone in 89 could do this. A truly dominant 4, the likes of which I don't know existed before his era and himself. (I think I might be quoting an old SI with that last part, but anyway...)

Ability to read a defense is another. I think Malone had this intrinsically, though he was more rash as a younger player -- which can actually be a complement and compliment, depending.

Low post dominance was so high from what I've seen, that he helped many scrub teammates raise their lacking games.

Highpost ability, on the other hand, improved measurably when looking at individuated skill. At the same time, he created at a prodigious rate for others even back in 89, at least from what I've seen of Utah's offensive output, and exactly where, why and how it comes.

If we're taking this purely on stats, however, then I don't know why you'd laugh at John Stockton's name; I think Malone was better, and a great anchor from early on, which is why Stockton loses out, however tightly, year after year with me.

But if, for the sake of argument (and thus voting), your standard is high offensive output combined with high-level facilitation ability, there have been few as good as Stockton. He put up insane numbers at his peak as far as accuracy and aggregates, wherein if you combine his points and assists he's one of the greatest offensive creators, individuation as team creation in other words, of this period. Maybe ever.

This latter portion is devil's advocate, as I'll vote for Malone. But for those looking for offense created team-wide on a dominant-level, as you seem to be partially arguing, Stockton deserves a lot more respect.

And thus and therein, I believe, that Utah truly was a two-man team during so much of this time period.

The interesting thing about Stockton is that the arguments used for defensive "anchors" -- that their value is so much higher than individual output would suggest -- could so easily be applied to what Stockton would do offensively, yet this point is very rarely made.

Magic versus MJ becomes much closer and more interesting when following this logic as well; in fact, it may flip the vote entirely. Again, that's in the balance.

As for Ewing, I want to watch some more tape on him, but at the same time no stat-tracking really seems to justify him in the top 5 for the season.

[ElGee]

My 1989 POY Ballot:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Charles Barkley
5. Karl Malone

MJ vs. MJ was close. Magic's case wasn't helped by his injury. But I thought it was a minor issue. I'm wondering how people treat an injury late in the playoffs like this versus an injury early in the playoffs? Isn't it better to be injured later? The only way someone can realistically be injured early and "contribute" to a championship is if that player is on a great team and they have a weak first round opponent. Seems to me that it's a smaller issue the later in the playoffs something like that happens in terms of this project...

Hakeem's defense earns him the 3rd place nod. I'm still trying to figure out why he wasn't on the all-defensive team that year. Maybe they should stop voting on all-defense teams. Or only have assistant coaches vote . Anyway, Barkley and Malone fairly comfortably round it out for me, over Ewing (and Kevin Johnson). That was the Rick Pitino Knicks -- better offensive results -- not the Pat Riley Knicks.

[mysticbb]

Stats for the 88-89 season (playoff games weighted 3 times as much as regular season games):

Code: Select all

Rk Player              PER  WS   ON   SUM
1  Michael Jordan     30.6 23.6  6.1 60.4
2  Magic Johnson      25.7 17.4  7.4 50.5
3  Charles Barkley    26.7 16.7  4.5 47.9
4  John Stockton      23.2 16.5  7.1 46.9
5  Karl Malone        24.1 15.3  5.3 44.7
6  Kevin Johnson      20.8 14.5  7.1 42.4
7  Hakeem Olajuwon    25.0 13.0  2.7 40.7
8  James Worthy       20.0 12.4  5.7 38.1
9  Moses Malone       21.7 12.0  4.3 38.0
10 Clyde Drexler      23.4 12.3  1.8 37.5
11 Ron Harper         20.0 11.3  5.5 36.9
12 Larry Nance        20.1 11.0  5.5 36.6
13 Patrick Ewing      21.3 11.6  3.0 35.8
14 Dominique Wilkins  21.4 10.4  3.0 34.7
15 Tom Chambers       18.9 10.4  5.0 34.3
16 Mark Price         19.0 10.0  5.2 34.2
17 Chris Mullin       22.0 11.3  0.3 33.6
18 Robert Parish      20.9 10.1  1.4 32.3
19 Kevin McHale       20.0 10.2  1.5 31.8
20 Fat Lever          20.3  8.7  1.8 30.0


The Top3 seems kind of obvious with Jordan, Magic and Barkley. I already pointed out why I picked Jordan over Magic. It should be noted that I think the difference was smaller than those numbers indicate here. Stockton comes out over Malone, I said numerous times I'm confident with him over Malone. The 5th player on that list will be Olajuwon over Malone, especially the Jazz losing in 3 to the Warriors isn't an argument for Malone at all. I feel also confident with picking Olajuwon over Stockton

@kaima

Nice argumentation against Ewing, I see it the same way.


Vote:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Charles Barkley
4. Hakeem Olajuwon
5. John Stockton

[kaima]

Decided to post some articles. Quickly.

Don't know how great the information is. Looked for matchups that were early but key, as opposed to the obvious stuff, mostly looked for interesting headlines -- then, C/P.

This was a pain in the ass. Probably a one-off, it was such a pain.

Didn't find anything good on Barkley.

Rockets/Sonics

Beast of burden/Lister makes things tough for Akeem

Conversation overheard:

Seattle SuperSonics fan: "How bad can the Rockets be? We beat you Sunday with six reserves."

Rockets fan: "Six reserves? You're crazy. The Sonics only used 10 people when it counted. Five starters. Five reserves."

Sonics fan: "We used six reserves. Sedale Threatt. Michael Cage. Olden Polynice. John Lucas. Russ Schoene. Alton Lister."

Rockets fan: Alton Lister is no reserve. He starts."

Sonics fan: "Well, Lister should be a reserve."

Not in this National Basketball Association playoff series.

Like many of his peers, Lister, an unsung 7-foot veteran center, has been brutalized by Rockets center Akeem Olajuwon in past confrontations. However, Lister provided two stellar performances over the weekend in Seattle.

He played a key role in boosting Seattle to a 2-0 lead and placing Houston on the brink of elimination in the best-of-five series.

In two games, Lister scored 26 points, grabbed 11 rebounds and, remarkably, blocked 13 shots, nine more than Olajuwon or any other player on the floor.

Lister's impact in this series is enormous in comparison to his regular-season norms: an 8.0 scoring average and 2.2 blocked shots per game, figures in line with his output in an eight-year NBA career.

"But it feels totally different now," Lister said after scoring 20 points Sunday in Game 2, a 109-97 Sonics victory at the Seattle Coliseum.

"I'm just trying to take the ball at Akeem, put some pressure on him and possibly get him in foul trouble. Of course, that's what I always try to do."

On offense, Lister said, "They seem like they're giving me every opportunity to score, so I'm trying to take advantage. I've had good shots."

And on defense, the former San Jacinto Junior College stalwart from Dallas said, "I've been staying around the basket, and they have a lot of guys who like to go inside. So I've had opportunities for blocked shots."

A man 7 feet tall always has opportunities, though. Why has Lister chosen now to assert himself?

"I was out with Alton the other day, and I could tell he was ready," Sonics teammate and friend John Lucas said. "I was doing my Akeem imitation, and Alton wasn't going for it. I could tell he was serious. He wanted to play.

"One man can't stop Akeem, but Alton has been doing a good job at holding him down."

Actually, nobody has stopped Olajuwon, who has scored 58 points in two games.

But the Sonics have forced Houston's All-Star center to work hard for baskets, have bothered his jump shot and have neutralized him on the boards. Olajuwon, who averaged 13.5 rebounds per game in the regular season, grabbed nine in Game 1 and 12 on Sunday.

The main accomplishment was that Seattle did not let Olajuwon take complete charge of either game, a role to which he is accustomed.

Lister is quick to admit he has received considerable help against Olajuwon.

"When a big guy like Olden Polynice can come into the game and bang against Akeem, too, and when Michael Cage is crashing the boards, it makes a big difference," Lister said.

"Our bench is the key to our success. We've been able to wear down their big men as the games progress. Their big guys (Olajuwon and Otis Thorpe) play a lot of minutes."

Lister knows, too, that Olajuwon, weary or not, is in almost non-stop motion. And he tries to adjust to his rival's style.

"If Akeem goes for the blocked shot, I go for the offensive boards," Lister said. "If he's trying to steal, I'm running down the court harder.

"I'm taking what they give me. Mostly, though, I'm just trying to play my hardest at all times."

He has played so hard he is threatening to break at least one NBA playoff record. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar holds the record for blocked shots in a three-game series with 15, and Olajuwon set the standard for a four-game series with 20.

If the series ends either Wednesday or Friday nights here in Games 3 or 4, Lister likely will challenge those marks.

Lister's effort is greatly appreciated by Seattle's better-known stars.

"They're making such a strong effort to stop Dale Ellis, Derrick McKey and me that Alton and others are getting opportunities," Sonics forward Xavier McDaniel said.

"And Alton and everybody else on our team is contributing."

"For two games, Alton has played very, very well," Seattle Coach Bernie Bickerstaff said. "He's getting the job done on the floor.

"But we've only played two games. And if we are to win in Houston, Alton and Olden have got to keep playing this way. If they can't do any better, I hope at least they sustain this level."

Lister concedes that the challenge has only begun.

"This was a pivotal game," Lister said of Game 2, "because Houston came out on fire, Akeem was dunking time after time and we still came back and got a victory.

"But we still need another win. And we don't know when we'll get it. They're tough in Houston. And we know we'll have another physical game.

"I feel like I'm a part of it," he said of the series' progression. "To play Akeem in a playoff, you'd better be ready."

He was ready in Seattle.

Rockets should try this again

THERE were just over two minutes gone when Nate McMillan dribbled the ball off his foot and into the hands of Sleepy Floyd.

The Rockets' sometimes-sparkplug scooped it up at mid-court and began to gather his momentum. He had Akeem Olajuwon to the left and 7-foot Alton Lister blocking his path.

Lister had rejected 13 shots in the first two games of this playoff series and stood there waiting like the spider for the fly.

You watched and you held your breath and you tried to anticipate the precise instant when Floyd was going to dish to Olajuwon. But instead, as your jaw went down, down, down toward the floor, Sleepy went up, up, up.

If a man has ever been given a tonsillectomy by a basketball it was Lister, who'll probably have to exist on a diet of ice cream today after taking leather down his throat courtesy of Dr. Floyd.

Then, with just over five minutes left, Otis Thorpe lifted off from the right baseline and threw down the kind of one-handed tomahawk that would have made Geronimo proud and you half expected Russ Schoene to reach up and check for his scalp.

In between, all the Rockets did was bend, spindle and mutilate the Seattle SuperSonics 126-107 with the kind of effort that only left you wanting more. In fact, it was the kind of performance that only left you asking why we haven't seen more of that kind of effort all along.

There was Buck Johnson taking his wiry body in among the sculpted musclemen on the Sonics' frontline. Tim McCormick shed his label as a pacifist and left the floor with a stream of blood pouring from a broken nose, and even Allen Leavell entered the fray for several minutes and took a charge from John Lucas.

Now you can call it nothing more than the home-court advantage. But it would be more accurate to say that the Rockets showed the kind of emotion and fire Wednesday night at The Summit that should have prevented them from trying to dig out of an 0-2 hole in the first place.

"This is what we wanted all along," said Coach Don Chaney. "We wanted to come out and assert ourselves. We want to be the aggressive team. I'm talking about being the team that makes the plays and forces the action, not being the team that is just physical."

But the Rockets were physical. They lined up against a Sonics team that had kicked sand in their faces twice last weekend in Seattle and would not give an inch.

The Rockets jumped on backs, they swung a few elbows and, most importantly, they did not back down and give ground on a night when they simply could not afford to retreat.

Thorpe finished with 23 points and 7 rebounds, Olajuwon with 19 points and 18 rebounds and Johnson with 16 points and 6 rebounds and the Sonics wound up with bruised faces.

But it was Floyd, more than anybody, who set the tone. Sleepy slashed and cut, took the ball to the hole and slung in a trio of 3-pointers on the way to piling up 22 of his 28 points in the first half as the Rockets came out and made their statement.

Houston would not go down on this night. At least not without a fight. And the battles were plentiful in a game that had five technical fouls and at least that many more stare-downs between combatants.

Five other NBA first-round series had seen teams fall behind 0-2, and on each of those occasions the team that trailed could not come back to avoid a sweep.

But the Rockets proved different, because the Rockets were different. They played like they were at least familiar with defense and they went hard to the boards like there was no tomorrow, which there wasn't.

"You can call it desperation," said Thorpe. "That's probably a good word."

It describes how a Seattle club that mauled the Rockets up front in the first two games was held to seven points by McDaniel, just six by Derrick McKey and none by Lister.

"We picked up the intensity right from the start," Floyd said. "We came out with a sense of purpose. We knew that we had to take the game to them. That's part of being at home."

It's also part of making a commitment.

"The only thing that worries me," said Chaney, "is that our players don't start to thinking that this is the way it will be on Friday just because we're in our own building."

The Rockets are still going to need the same spark, if not one that burns even brighter.

"It's still 2-1 and we're the ones who are down," Chaney said. "This doesn't make things even."

But it's a start.

Series gets physical - again

The Rockets-Seattle SuperSonics playoff series got bloody Wednesday night.

"And obviously, it was long overdue," Sonics forward Michael Cage said. "We've been banging each other as hard as we can for three games. And this was an important game. Both teams played hard."

Hard enough that Sonics guard Sedale Threatt suffered a bruised thigh.

Hard enough that Rockets center Tim McCormick's nose was bloodied.

Hard enough that four Sonics and one Rocket were assessed technical fouls.

Take warning, too.

If Sonics' forward Xavier McDaniel is right, the Rockets' 126-107 victory Wednesday night at The Summit represents only the tip of an iceberg.

Seattle's lead in the best-of-five series now is only 2-1, with Game 4 here Friday night. "And we've got to get up to the challenge," McDaniel said. "They were up to it tonight, but not us.

"If a guy goes to the hole against us Friday night, we'd better make him eat some wood because that's what they're doing to us. We've got to put them on the floor.

"They knocked us out cold tonight," McDaniel said. "And we're just fortunate we've got chances to redeem ourselves.

"Maybe we thought this was going to be a cakewalk. Well, it wasn't. Now, we've got to look ourselves in the mirror and come back playing a lot more aggressively next game."

Game 3 was intense enough.

Technical fouls were assessed Sonics Alton Lister, Cage, McDaniel and Dale Ellis and Rockets center Akeem Olajuwon.

Within the first 4 1/2 minutes, Lister exchanged heated words with Olajuwon but did not entice Akeem into a fight, drawing a technical for his actions.

Among other incidents:

Olajuwon became upset enough that he threw the basketball at Cage, drawing a technical.

Cage, angered when McCormick fouled Seattle guard John Lucas to prevent an easy basket, charged after McCormick and was whistled for a violation.

Threatt collided with Rockets guard Mike Woodson driving toward the basket and lay on the floor in pain for several minutes. He eventually returned to the game but was limping.

McCormick missed the final few minutes because of a bloody nose and wasn't certain how the injury occurred.

McDaniel and Ellis got technicals for complaining to officials about what they considered fouls not whistled.

"You just like to get the same respect as the other team," Ellis said later. "I don't think we got it tonight. A couple of times I took the ball to the basket and was fouled hard, and nothing was called."

"I went to the hole one time and got slapped in the face, and another time I was grabbed," McDaniel said. "Sedale got knocked down, too. There was a lot going on tonight."

Those goings-on, however, were not one-sided, in Rocket Coach Don Chaney's view.

Indeed, Chaney expressed open concern that the Sonics' remarks may be a psychological ploy by Seattle Coach Bernie Bickerstaff.

"We were not more physical than they were, I guarantee that," Chaney said of Game 3.

"I don't want Bernie planting that seed. I don't want the next group of refs that comes in here to be looking just at us."

Not surprisingly, the Rockets felt it was no more physical than Games 1 and 2 in Seattle.

"You expect playoff games to be physical," Woodson said. "It gets physical when two teams are competitive."

"Those games in Seattle were just as physical," McCormick said. "But we were frustrated at their place, and it was our intention to frustrate them at our place."

Mission accomplished.

"We got a little too hot," Ellis said.

"Everybody seemed a little intimidated by Houston tonight," Threatt said.

"Only Olden Polynice played aggressively the way we're all supposed to play," McDaniel said.

And backup center Polynice, who was nearly involved in several altercations during the evening, admitted he had to struggle to keep his control.

"It's getting physical out there. Very physical," Polynice said. "And I like it that way. But just because somebody hits me, I can't hit back. I can only take it and keep smiling."

"You can't help your team from the bench," the Sonics' Cage agreed. "Fortunately, the officials did a good job tonight or some people may have been on the bench, myself included.

"I thought McCormick got an extra shove (on Lucas); I reacted and I got a technical as fast as you could blink an eye. They said I started it. I said something back and the ref said, `Say another word and you're out of here.' That tends to sober you up in a hurry.

"I don't regret anything, though. I play hard. They play hard. And I'm going to protect my teammates.

"At least I didn't see any real cheap shots tonight," Cage said. "There was a lot of pushing and shoving, but no punches were thrown."

The series, however, isn't over.

"In the playoffs, you've got to expect anything," McDaniel said. "The officials are letting us play, and we've got to do whatever we can get away with doing."

The war continues Friday night.

One tick was all it took to break Rockets' hearts

TICK.

And it was over.

In less time than it takes to describe it, it happened.

A knife in the back. A knee to the groin. A sucker punch.

The official play-by-play sheet called it a simple layup. Really, that's all it was.

Derrick McKey took a lob pass from Nate McMillan and dropped it in over Allen Leavell's head. Dropped it like a ton of granite on the Rockets. Dropped it in so softly and so suddenly that the sellout crowd of 16,611 at The Summit was still paying for that extra beer that was going to carry it through the overtime period when Houston was wiped out of the NBA playoffs.

96-96.

Tick.

98-96.

Stinko de Mayo.

It was a blink of an eye that seemed like an eternity as the Rockets watched in slow motion at the nightmare unfolding before them.

Leavell, who was put into the game specifically for the final play, was guarding Seattle's Dale Ellis, the possessor of 26 points on the night.

But after a collision on the right side of the basket, Leavell found himself isolated down low on McKey. Tick.

"We switched," Leavell said. "Just the way we were supposed to. The plan was to switch with every pick they set.

"When we made the switch, I knew I was guarding a guy who was a lot taller than me. But by then there was nothing that I could do.

"The pass was right there. He caught it. How the (bleep) do you stop it?"

Tick.

Buck Johnson started out on McKey and then jumped to cover Dale Ellis, who was the primary concern of the Rockets' defense with his deadeye shooting.

"When we made the switch, all I was thinking about was staying with Ellis," he said. "I didn't want Ellis to get that ball in any way.

"When I realized the ball had been thrown in, I turned and was able to watch McKey just as he caught the ball. I was close, but I was too far away. You never say never about a guy missing a shot from one foot away. But you don't really think the odds are very good that it's going to happen.

"All you can do is walk off the court. It's the end of the season."

Maybe it should have been over earlier when the Rockets played passively on the backboards and were outhustled to every loose ball and the Sonics built themselves a 92-83 lead with 6:35 left in the game.

But with the Sonics coughing up just as many opportunities down the stretch to put it away, the Rockets somehow found themselves in a position to still win.

Tick.

That's how little-used Chuck Nevitt found himself in the play for the shortest of time and the longest of time. He was guarding McMillan, who stood at half court on the left sideline.

"My job was to concentrate on the man making the pass," Nevitt said. "I was trying to follow his eyes and trace the path of the ball.

"I was looking to anticipate the pass and hoped to maybe get an arm or a hand in front it. But I couldn't.

"When I turned around, I saw exactly where the pass was going and I knew exactly what was going to happen. My reaction was to try to run back down there and maybe block the shot. But, of course, I was way too far out to do anything. All I could do was watch."

Tick.

Akeem Olajuwon was on Alton Lister, the Sonics 7-foot center who came out to try to set a pick on Nevitt.

"I followed Lister out away from the basket and I never even saw the pass," Olajuwon said. "When I turned and looked back, I thought, `Oh no!' But it was over by then."

Over just like the night in Olajuwon's sophomore year at the University of Houston when Lorenzo Charles scored a layup at the buzzer to give North Carolina State the NCAA championship over UH.

"That is still the most painful loss of my career," Olajuwon said. "But this one hurts. I thought we were going to win. I really did."

The Rockets didn't deserve to win. They were outrebounded 53-34, they shot just 46 percent from the field and could manage just 17 points in the fourth quarter.

Tick.

But the Sonics staggered and Sleepy Floyd had tied the game at 96-all with his 3-pointer just before the Sonics called timeout with one second left.

His man was Xavier McDaniel, and he followed the X-man out to the right corner on the final play. "He took me over there, but I could look back and see the whole thing developing," Floyd said.

"We played the defense just the way we were supposed to, but they got the mismatch they needed."

Floyd watched the layup, then picked up the ball and slammed it hard off the floor.

"Anger? Disappointment? Disbelief?" he said. "It's safe to say I was feeling all of those things."

It's a feeling he's had before.

"I lost the national championship at Georgetown in the last second when Michael Jordan hit a shot in the final second. Same feeling. Horrible.

"What can you say? You're the happiest person in the world and then the saddest. I won't sleep tonight. How can you?"

Floyd looked up again.

"Do you know how fast one second is?" he asked.

Tick.

Not fast enough.

Warriors/Jazz

WHEN GAME IS OVER, MAILMAN DOESN'T DELIVER

By Doug Robinson, Sports Writer

And now, for a comment about the Utah Jazz's opening-night flop in the Salt Palace, we take you live to the Jazz locker room and Karl Malone. Karl? Karl? Are you there? Uh, say, Karl?
Well, uh, it seems Malone isn't speaking at the moment, sports fans, so sit tight while we switch you live to the Golden State Warriors' locker room, where we have Larry Smith, the man who silenced Malone on the court. Larry? Are you there? What'd you think of tonight's performance? Uh, Lar?Well, um, hmmm, it seems Larry isn't speaking either, and, since no one is volunteering to remind him that his silence violates a team rule, let's return to the Jazz locker room for an update. It's been a full 15 minutes since the game ended, and still there is no sign of Malone. Well, actually he was seen once, briefly. Moments after the locker room was opened and a herd of reporters rushed in, Malone, wrapped smartly in a white terry cloth robe, rushed out, heading the other way for the shower.
That left some 12 reporters standing around talking to each other, pacing, looking anxiously at their watches, checking and rechecking their mini-cams - Lights, camera, . . . action? - waiting for Malone to return from the shower/training room area. And they waited and waited and waited. By the time Malone returned 25 minutes later, only four reporters remained. They approached Malone, oh, about the same way a poodle sidles up to a pit bull.
``Are you talking?'' one of them ventured to ask.
``No.''
And with that the reporters beat a quick path for the door.
That was Malone's quote for the night.
He said more to the R.C. Willey pad he ripped off the basket standard.
Alas, another Silent Treatment has begun. Carrying on a playoff tradition that began with Frank Layden two years ago and resumed last year, Malone has made it clear he's not talking. ``I don't want any other outside distractions,'' he explained earlier in the week. Asked Wednesday about post-game interviews, Malone said, ``Depends on the mood.''
And his mood was blue. In Thursday night's 123-119 loss to the Warriors, Malone, with or without outside distractions, had one of his most difficult outings of the season. He finished with a fine 22 points and 13 rebounds - but 10 those points and 7 boards came in the fourth quarter. He also had just one dunk, near the end of the game - and no fist-pumping celebrations.
Until the fourth quarter, Malone was, well, silent. For the record, he had one forgettable first quarter: 0 points, 1 rebound, 2 turnovers. He didn't score until the 8:02 mark of the second quarter. By halftime he had 6 points (one field goal) and 5 rebounds, having hit 1 of 5 from the field.
To be sure, Malone, who has had a brilliant season, was the man on the spot Thursday. ``We had five guys around him all night,'' said Golden State coach Don Nelson. ``We double-teamed him and triple-teamed him and tried not to let him get a good position. That's the only way we thought we could handle him.''
Malone spent most the night trying to push past Smith or 7-foot-7 Manute Bol to establish position inside. When the Jazz could even get the ball to him down low, another defender or two was ready to collapse on him, which was a big reason he committed 7 turnovers.
``They did a good job on Karl,'' said guard Bobby Hansen. ``They were real physical with him and the refs let them do it. They were pushing him off the block (away from the basket) and collapsing on him from the outside.''
Said Mark Eaton, the Jazz center, ``We kept trying to force things in to Karl, rather than swing the ball around and be a little more patient. I'm sure Karl was frustrated.''
It is a measure of Malone's talents that the Jazz were rendered ineffective much of the night without his usual contributions. But given his performance this season, Malone isn't likely to be down long. ``Things didn't go real well for Karl tonight, but he'll bounce right back,'' said Jazz Coach Jerry Sloan. ``That's the kind of player he is.''

MAGIC THINKS JAZZ ARE OUT
UTAH TRYING TO SOLVE PROBLEMS, FILL GAPS, AVOID SERIES SWEEP

By Kurt Kragthorpe, Sports Writer

The story of the Jazz's playoff collapse went national Sunday. CBS-TV was showing a frustrated Karl Malone, Sports Illustrated was on the case for this week's issue, and one well-known Jazz follower was pronouncing the outlook hopeless.
Could the Jazz come back? ``I doubt it,'' Magic Johnson said before the Lakers' win over Portland. ``I'm not surprised. The Warriors are a dangerous team, because of all the matchup problems. It's almost impossible to win three in a row, especially when you've got to go to (Oakland) for two.''While Johnson is not expecting a date with the Jazz in the Western Conference finals, the Jazz have more modest goals than that at the moment. They'd like to avoid a sweep in this first-round series. Only then can they consider surviving to meet Phoenix or Denver in the second round - and earn the franchise about another $700,000.
Facing their earliest playoff exit ever, the Jazz play Golden State in Game 3 of the best-of-five series Tuesday night in the Oakland Coliseum Arena.
After a day off, the Jazz practiced today at Westminster College before leaving town. Observations on what's left of the series:
- Golden State's Don Nelson is as good a coach as advertised. Jerry Sloan is more than adequate, but Nelson is manipulating the series and frustrating the Jazz with his tricky - illegal? - defenses. He's making all the right moves, while the Jazz seem caught between matchups and defenses.
They're also playing tight, although Thurl Bailey says, ``I don't think that's it at all.'' Generally, they look like Portland did against them last spring - ironically, ex-Portland Coach Mike Schuler is watching the series as a Nelson sidekick. The Jazz have lost 20 turnovers in each game and have retrieved roughly one of every five loose balls.
- This is another tough postseason for Mike Brown. In three series with Chicago over two years, Brown played in two games for seven minutes. In this series, he's played in one game for six minutes. That's proof of how the Warriors can mess up a team's rotation - and they could be doing this to anybody.
- Off-guard remains a problem position for the Jazz. Bobby Hansen and Darrell Griffith have totaled 51 points in two games, but that's with Hansen playing 27 extra minutes as a forward. After shooting too much in Game 1, Griffith was kept under wraps Saturday. He and Hansen have made 19 of 51 shots (.373), while Golden State rookie Mitch Richmond is 20 of 40 for 51 points.
- More numbers: Karl Malone's 22 rebounds in Game 2 broke his own Jazz playoff record; his 11 offensive boards were his most ever in the NBA . . . Thurl Bailey's six points matched his regular-season low . . . John Stockton's 6-of-18 shooting was his worst for a game in which he took that many shots.

JAZZ OFF-KEY AGAIN - SEASON'S OVER
GOLDEN STATE COMPLETES PLAYOFF SWEEP

By Kurt Kragthorpe, Sports Writer

The next thing anybody knew, the Jazz's supposedly most promising season was over. The Midwest Division champs' brief, puzzling playoff run officially ended Tuesday night when Bobby Hansen punted the basketball about 20 rows up into the Coliseum Arena and the Golden State Warriors walked away with a sweep of the best-of-five NBA series.
The Warriors' 120-106 victory sent them into the Western Conference semifinals, beginning at Phoenix Saturday, while the Jazz will meet Thursday to divide playoff money and say their goodbyes for roughly five months. ``It'll be the longest summer we've ever had,'' said Jazz general manager David Checketts, and he's right in more ways than one.Informed that the basketball world at large was surprised by the early exit of a Western Conference favorite, Karl Malone responded, ``Why?'' Across the locker room, though, Mark Eaton was genuinely stunned. ``A state of shock . . . frustrating, more than anything,'' was his reaction after the Jazz lost three straight games for the first time since Coach Jerry Sloan's rough December in the East.
In the wake of the sweep, naturally, the Jazz will face all kinds of questions this summer. ``We're not unhappy with this group of guys; not at all,'' said Checketts, who knows just the same that he has needs - the off-guard position, for one - to address between now and November.
For now, the Jazz can only wonder what happened in a series of three very winnable games and three second-half collapses. In the latest adventure, they gave up 12 straight points in the third quarter but cut the Warriors' lead to six points with 5:24 left in the game - only to have 7-foot-7 Manute Bol deliver a devastating 3-point shot.
End of series, end of season, and what a way to go. The Bol shot is the frozen moment of Jazz-Warriors '89, the case of a favored team that never caught on to the freaky other guys. ``You just don't dream about sweeping a team like Utah - they're too good,'' said Warrior guard Winston Garland.
So the Jazz leave the playoffs quietly, asking for a disclaimer. ``They really made us play the way we didn't want to play,'' said John Stockton, after the Warriors' small lineups and outside shooting took Eaton out of game after game and their pack-it-in defense caused trouble.
``Out there on the floor, you continually had to think,'' mused Eaton. ``It wasn't a regular basketball game, where you could just go out and play.''
The Warriors? ``A very hot team, a hungry team, a very good team,'' said the Jazz's Thurl Bailey.
They sure looked that way against the Jazz. Forward Chris Mullin continued his three-game spree with 35 points and guard Mitch Richmond, fresh from two days of supposedly distracting NBA Rookie of the Year observances, made 9 of 10 shots for 26 points. Stockton had 34 points, 16 assists and six steals for the Jazz and Malone turned on for 17 of his 33 points in the fourth quarter, but there was no rescuing even one victory.
``We couldn't ever come up with an answer to stop 'em consistently,'' said Eaton.
While Darrell Griffith had his moments with 21 points, Thurl Bailey was 1 of 7 from the field and Hansen was 3 of 14. ``We had to get a big game out of Thurl or Bobby, and that didn't happen,'' said Checketts.
The Warriors had every intention of closing out the Jazz and moving on. ``The longer the series went, the more it would shift in their favor,'' said Coach Don Nelson, fairly accurately.
After claiming to be staying cool for Game 3, the Jazz looked as shaky as ever. Just when the Jazz overcame a slow start to lead by seven in the second quarter, the Warriors went on a 17-2 run featuring Terry Teagle's 10 points. Malone and Griffith led a recovery, but Richmond's forced-up shot at the halftime horn left the Jazz with a 49-48 lead.
Third quarter, same story. Malone winked at the press table during the warmup, as if to suggest everything were under control, but instead the Jazz came through with their regular fade. Initially, they went up by five as Stockton scored six straight, only to have the Warriors reel off their 12.
``We panicked at times,'' admitted one player, and there were plenty of examples. Down by four after a Griffith 3-pointer, the Jazz gave up seven points in the last 36 seconds - a Mullin 3-point play, a Rod Higgins dunk and a Mullin layup for an 82-71 lead after Stockton fell and lost the ball.
The lead reached 15 early in the fourth quarter before the Jazz rallied. Stockton's steal and Malone's dunk had them threatening, but Bol launched his 3-pointer and the Jazz were never the same.
Afterward, they were announcing the Warriors as the latest playoff darlings. ``Last year, the same thing happened to us,'' said Malone. ``We got on a roll and we were beating everybody.''
Well, Portland in the first round, anyway. This spring, the Jazz were swept in a series for the first time ever, not exactly a classic end to a season with the marketing theme of ``Playing Proud.'' Mostly, the Jazz were willing to blame the Warriors.
``Golden State just played way above their heads,'' said Eaton. ``They played consistently, they hit their open shots, they did all the little things. Basically, it boils down to they were hot and we were not.''
Which is not an answer that will likely satisfy Jazz management, to say nothing of the talk-show callers. Bring on the offseason.

Knicks/Bulls

Knicks on final legs in playoffs

NEW YORK - Three National Basketball Association powerhouses continue to coast through the playoffs.

Indeed, the Los Angeles Lakers, Detroit Pistons and Phoenix Suns are fulfilling every expectation. On their best nights, each team has convinced audiences it possesses the stuff of champions.

The Atlantic Division champion New York Knicks, however, are another matter.

So impressive most of the season, and fresh from a three-game first-round playoff sweep over Philadelphia, the Knicks now are on the brink of elimination, trailing the Chicago Jordan - er, Bulls - 3-1 in a best-of-7 Eastern Conference semifinal series.

Game 5 is tonight at Madison Square Garden. And assuming Michael Jordan will continue his Superman heroics for Chicago, the Knicks' prime needs are obvious:

Their All-Stars must begin playing like All-Stars.

Mark Jackson. Patrick Ewing.

They are unquestionably two of pro basketball's top young talents. In this series, however, point guard Jackson has been erratic at times and plain awful at other times. And 7-foot-center Ewing has endured the embarrassment of being neutralized, even dominated in Game 4, by his former understudy, Bill Cartwright.

First, some thoughts about Jackson.

Given his track record, this should be Jackson's proudest hour. He is the home-town kid - an All-American at St. John's - made good, NBA rookie of the year last season and a member of the East All-Star team this year. He thrives on pressure, too.

New Yorkers embraced Jackson when he was entrusted, despite limited experience, to direct the Knicks' complicated, team-oriented offense.

But the love affair ended last week.

Jackson had irritated home fans in Game 1 by taking a wild, ill-advised 3-point shot with the score tied and five seconds remaining in regulation time. He missed, and the Knicks lost in overtime. Listeners flooded radio talk-shows with complaints about Jackson. And in Game 2, many in the crowd made clear their preference that Coach Rick Pitino use backup Rod Strickland, not Jackson, at point guard.

Pitino was angered.

Speaking with heavy emotion following Game 2, New York's only victory and featuring Jackson's only solid performance, Pitino said, "I've been listening to the talk shows lately, and I'm uncomfortable with the fans booing Mark Jackson.

"When I put him in for Rod Strickland tonight, the boos were as loud as they can get. I was hurt a little bit.

"Rod Strickland is a great young player. But let's not forget how much Mark Jackson has meant for this franchise the past two years."

The focus intensified when the Knicks' coach, addressing more than 100 reporters, continued to plead for media support of Jackson because, he said, "The fans react to what you write."

How did Jackson react?

"I don't pay attention to boos because that's ignorance," he said. "The people who boo are like rats - the first to jump off when the ship is sinking.

"Whenever I hear the boos, I just take a look over at my parents and my fiancee sitting in the stands. They give me strength."

Trouble is, he isn't playing strong.

Jackson scored 20 points and accumulated 16 assists in Game 2. But in the other three games combined, he has totaled only 31 points and 21 assists.

The Knicks' offense has been impatient, disorganized and - the bottom line - ineffective. New York, a team that favors an fast-breaking, high-scoring approach, tallied 88 and 91 points in two weekend losses at Chicago.

"Our offense broke down," guard Gerald Wilkins said, "and I can't put my finger on the reason."

It's Jackson's job now as point guard, however, even if he isn't the whole problem, to reignite the attack.

"We haven't even scratched the surface of what we can do as a team," Jackson said. "We know we can play better.

"Maybe we're thinking too much. We have to move more. We have to pass more. Boy, do we have to pass more. We've got to make things happen instead of waiting for things to happen. We haven't begun to exploit their defense."

Ewing, whom some compare with Rockets center Akeem Olajuwon in talent and potential impact, hasn't begun to assert himself either.

In the Knicks' Game 1 loss here, Ewing was outrebounded 14-10 by Cartwright, Ewing's backup until he was traded to the Bulls last June.

Ewing performed adequately in Games 2 and 3, but on Sunday, Cartwright outscored Ewing 21-10.

"A big key to our success in this series is Bill being able to contain Patrick," Bulls Coach Doug Collins said. "That's a big matchup for us. Last year, we didn't have the big man, and Bill has made a difference."

Pitino defended Ewing just as he had Jackson two games earlier.

"Bill is doing a good job, but Patrick got 15 good shots (in Game 4)," Pitino said. "He just didn't get a good roll. He'll get the roll next game."

Ewing insisted Cartwright isn't bothering him. "I always said Bill Cartwright was a good player, even when he was in New York, but I don't think it's so much what he's doing," Ewing said. "My shot just isn't falling."

It's clear to most series observers, though, that Cartwright, if nothing else, is forcing Ewing away from the basket. And when Ewing gets the basketball, the Bulls are quick to double team.

Ewing said, too, he believes the officiating is working against him.

"I'm getting a lot of touch fouls called on me that they aren't getting called on them," Ewing said.

Several Knicks suggested Jordan, who made 23 of 28 free throws Sunday, is getting preferential treatment.

"Michael got it going and then the referees said, `Hey, let's keep him going,"' Wilkins said of Game 4. "It seemed like he got every call. They wouldn't even let us get near him. We couldn't put a hand on the guy. He's Michael Jordan. He doesn't need any help."

Is that a losing team's frustration showing? Perhaps.

Jackson provided a better analysis, saying, "We did the things we did this season because we've got a lot of weapons. The problem is, they're all misfiring right now."

Especially Mark Jackson and Patrick Ewing.

NBA playoffs/Ewing fires Knicks past Bulls

NEW YORK - Seven minutes into a must-win playoff game Tuesday night, the New York Knicks seemed merely to be trading baskets with the Chicago Bulls.

Indeed, New York trailed 21-20.

But the scene unfolding clearly offered a deeper meaning. For the first time in three games the Knicks:

Had achieved the uptempo style they covet.

Were finding ways to work the basketball to All-Star center Patrick Ewing.

Were getting an all-out effort from All-Star point guard Mark Jackson.

With those trends established, the Knicks eventually took control and, though they almost faltered late, decisioned the Bulls 121-114 in Game 5 of a best-of-seven NBA Eastern Conference semifinal series at Madison Square Garden.

The Bulls still lead the series 3-2.

"And I'd rather be in our position than theirs," Chicago guard Michael Jordan said. "But I wouldn't say our position is secure. Both teams are under pressure now. And we can't ever let them get to the place that they could throw a knockout punch."

That place would be Madison Square Garden again. Sunday. A deciding Game 7.

But this series won't return to New York unless the Knicks win Game 6 Friday night at Chicago Stadium, where Jordan led the Bulls to two easy victories last weekend.

Jordan was good again Tuesday night, scoring a game-high 38 points and offering a dazzling display of unorthodox moves as Chicago almost overcame a 17-point second-half deficit.

The telling factor in Game 5, however, was that the Knicks played their game, too, on offense.

Especially Ewing.

Ewing, limited to 10 points Sunday in Game 4, had 16 by halftime Tuesday night.

He sat out much of the third quarter because of foul trouble, but down the stretch Ewing provided exactly the type leadership the Knicks had lacked and desperately needed.

Consider the final minute:

A Jordan 3-pointer had moved the Bulls within 112-109, the closest they had been since halftime. But Ewing responded with a turnaround jump shot under intense pressure at the 44-second mark, and it was 114-109.

Then, the play of the night. And, in a rarity, this time Jordan was the victim.

Jordan again fired from long range. But Ewing rushed from under the basket, blocked the shot, then continued down court to accept a teammate's pass. He scored with 33 seconds remaining, and New York was seven points ahead.

As insurance, Ewing later produced three free throws.

"I'm a very proud person, and I feel I'm a winner, and I haven't played well in either of our playoff series," Ewing said later. "We beat Philadelphia without me playing well. But now, if we're to go to the next round (against Detroit), we need me to play better.

"I was hungrier tonight. I wanted the ball where I could score."

"Patrick did a great job of moving without the basketball," Knicks Coach Rick Pitino said. "He didn't have to worry about being pushed off the block (as the Bulls' Bill Cartwright did to Ewing in Chicago) because he was always moving."

"I tried to keep going from side to side," Ewing said. "I needed to take advantage of my quickness against Bill. And my teammates did a good job of getting me the basketball."

Jackson, a disappointment much of the series, was particularly effective.

The Knicks' point guard scored 14 points, but he also dished out 14 assists.

And he kept the attack moving, unlike in Games 3 and 4 when New York scored only 88 and 91 points, far below its normal output.

"They had us back on our heels tonight," Jordan said.

And Chicago Coach Doug Collins said, "We can't let them get on the run that way because that's when the Knicks are at their best."

Jordan cited the Bulls' late comeback effort as a positive.

"We had some chances to pull it out," Jordan said. "Hopefully, this will carry over."

The Knicks had espoused confidence even prior to Game 5.

"We are going to do this collectively, as a team," Jackson said. "We refuse to just die. This team loves answering challenges, and this is gut-check time. I think it feels great."

"This is the most excited I've ever been," Pitino said. "This is the ultimate in competition. If we ever overcome this, being down 3-1, it will be the greatest thing we can accomplish as a basketball team. This is the best form of a challenge."

New York led 33-28 after one quarter and 62-59 at the half. The Knicks were ahead 94-77 entering the final period.

Air Jordan

CHICAGO - When all else was falling apart around him, magnificent Michael Jordan put on his Superman cape and rescued the Chicago Bulls.

One more time.

Eight Jordan free throws without a miss in the closing 78 seconds, including the two game-winners with only four ticks left on the clock, enabled the Bulls to complete their National Basketball Association playoff upset of the New York Knicks.

With a dramatic 113-111 victory in Game 6 Friday night at Chicago Stadium, the Bulls, who ranked only fifth in their strong six-team Central Division during the regular season, eliminated Atlantic Division champion New York in a best-of-seven Eastern Conference semifinal series bitterly contested throughout.

If not for Michael Jordan, however

"He is the greatest basketball player to ever put on a pair of sneakers," Chicago Coach Doug Collins said after watching Jordan prevent what would have been a crushing, even humiliating, Bulls loss in the final seconds.

Jordan won this game not with one of his twisting, impossible-angle reverse hooks, not with a buzzer-beating jump shot, not by leaping high in the air to swat away an opponent's last-gasp effort - all moves that have created his current status as a young legend.

Instead, he won it by calmly stepping to the free-throw line time after time, ignoring the stifling pressure and touching only net with every effort.

He took two shots with 1:18 remaining and the score tied at 103.

He made both.

He had two more shots with 23 seconds left and Chicago ahead 107-105.

He made both.

He shot twice again with nine seconds remaining and the Bulls on top 109-107.

He made both.

That should have been enough. But when Knicks guard Trent Tucker accomplished a four-point play - yes, a four-point play, improbable as that seems - three seconds later, Superman was needed again.

Tucker's remarkable play came when he shot in desperation from three-point range, made the basket and was fouled by Craig Hodges, either a horrible judgment on Hodges' part or an official's mistake.

"I didn't touch him," Hodges said.

"I don't think Craig touched him," Bulls Coach Collins agreed. "I think Trent Tucker fell. I think it was a swan dive."

Others thought they saw Knicks center Patrick Ewing push Hodges into Tucker.

Regardless, Tucker made the free throw, the game was tied again at 111 and the Bulls seemed on the brink of losing a game that couldn't be lost.

Already, they had committed one critical mistake, starting forward Scottie Pippen challenging Knicks reserve Kenny Walker to a third-quarter fight. Under NBA rules, both players automatically were ejected. At the time, Pippen had 19 points, Walker zero.

"And it hurt us badly because I had to go to a small lineup," Collins said. "Otherwise, we didn't have enough quickness to stay with them."

"I had to move from point guard to small forward," Jordan said. "That meant I was needed more on the boards. It meant I, and everybody else, had to make a conscious effort to take up the slack."

And though the Bulls battled gamely to protect what was a 10-point lead, Jordan said, "We lost our poise on offense. We didn't take care of the basketball. We didn't execute."

And here they were, four seconds from the end of regulation time, having lost all their lead.

Even Superman conceded, "When they made that four-point play, I thought, `Maybe it wasn't meant for us to win tonight."'

But Jordan wouldn't let the Bulls lose. He accepted the basketball one last time, started up court, dribbled once, twice and was fouled again.

"I was a little nervous at the line," he said later, a characteristic Jordan hid well at the time. "But I had great rhythm on my shot all night. And I had great concentration."

He sank both shots, his 39th and 40th points. And when Johnny Newman missed a three-point effort at the buzzer for New York, Chicago was ensured a date with Detroit in the Eastern Conference finals beginning Sunday at Auburn Hills, Mich.

What an unenviable assignment, too.

The Pistons, self-proclaimed Baaaaad Boys of the NBA, should be well-rested and primed for warfare because for much of the past month they have had nobody to bash.

While its would-be rivals scratched and clawed with all their heart and physical strength to advance, Detroit swept Boston, swept Milwaukee and rested for 20 of the last 27 days.

Poor Bill Laimbeer could only sit by his fireplace drinking milk and cookies and playing with the neighborhood children.

Rumor is that Rick Mahorn, with so much spare time, has been moonlighting as an etiquette teacher and that Dennis Rodman is putting the finishing touches by now on his book, "The Importance of Clean Sportsmanship. " Pistons Coach Chuck Daly even had the advantage of traveling here to scout the Bulls-Knicks finale from press row.

Playing Detroit beats an early vacation, however, even if the Bulls were 0 for 6 against the Pistons in the regular season.

"I'm elated," said Jordan, who has never before reached this level of playoff competition. "I may not show my elation, though, because I'm still shocked, still nervous."

Jordan finished the series with a 35.3-points-per-game scoring average, and in the final four games he tallied 40, 47, 38 and 40 points.

Down the stretch this game, he showed, too, yet another dimension of his all-around brilliance.

"With Scottie Pippen out, and three guards in our lineup, I put Michael on Mark Jackson, their point guard, defensively in the final minutes," Collins said. "I felt Jackson would be the man trying to make the big plays. And I wanted Michael guarding him."

And Jordan handled the task admirably.

Jackson, who had sparkled earlier, did finish with 22 points. So did teammates Patrick Ewing and Wilkins. And in a must-win game on the road, the Knicks made 52.8 percent of their shots, outrebounded Chicago 32-27 and could easily have won.

Except for Jordan.

He was 14 for 22 from the floor. He sparked the Bulls to a 32-31 first-quarter lead, then when they fell eight points in arrears in the second period, he led them back to within 61-59 at halftime.

During one third-quarter stretch, Jordan scored seven of 12 Chicago points and assisted on the other five.

He did have help.

Help from ex-Knicks backup center Bill Cartwright, who finished an outstanding series with 16 points and eight rebounds, prompting Collins to say, "Bill has been maligned all year because his style isn't pretty, but how sweet it is to knock out the team that traded you."

Help, too, from Hodges, who made three important three-point baskets and scored 16 points; from forward Horace Grant, who had 11 points and seven rebounds; from reserve guard John Paxson, who contributed four key baskets, and from Pippen before his dismissal.

As usual, however, Jordan was the main man.

[lorak]

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Barkley
4. Hakeem
And I really don’t know what to do with 5th spot.
I guess I’m with mysticbb here and I will vote for Stockton. Very underrated player here, lead league in assists and steals (with 4th best result of all time).
5. Stockton

[kaima]

Stats for the 88-89 season (playoff games weighted 3 times as much as regular season games):

Code: Select all

Rk Player              PER  WS   ON   SUM
1  Michael Jordan     30.6 23.6  6.1 60.4
2  Magic Johnson      25.7 17.4  7.4 50.5
3  Charles Barkley    26.7 16.7  4.5 47.9
4  John Stockton      23.2 16.5  7.1 46.9
5  Karl Malone        24.1 15.3  5.3 44.7
6  Kevin Johnson      20.8 14.5  7.1 42.4
7  Hakeem Olajuwon    25.0 13.0  2.7 40.7
8  James Worthy       20.0 12.4  5.7 38.1
9  Moses Malone       21.7 12.0  4.3 38.0
10 Clyde Drexler      23.4 12.3  1.8 37.5
11 Ron Harper         20.0 11.3  5.5 36.9
12 Larry Nance        20.1 11.0  5.5 36.6
13 Patrick Ewing      21.3 11.6  3.0 35.8
14 Dominique Wilkins  21.4 10.4  3.0 34.7
15 Tom Chambers       18.9 10.4  5.0 34.3
16 Mark Price         19.0 10.0  5.2 34.2
17 Chris Mullin       22.0 11.3  0.3 33.6
18 Robert Parish      20.9 10.1  1.4 32.3
19 Kevin McHale       20.0 10.2  1.5 31.8
20 Fat Lever          20.3  8.7  1.8 30.0


The Top3 seems kind of obvious with Jordan, Magic and Barkley. I already pointed out why I picked Jordan over Magic. It should be noted that I think the difference was smaller than those numbers indicate here. Stockton comes out over Malone, I said numerous times I'm confident with him over Malone. The 5th player on that list will be Olajuwon over Malone, especially the Jazz losing in 3 to the Warriors isn't an argument for Malone at all. I feel also confident with picking Olajuwon over Stockton

Don't know what your standard generally is, but it seems funny to me that both Malone and Stockton rank (or don't) beneath Olajuwon even as your formula ranks them higher. They also won more games.

Losing to the Sonics in four instead of the Warriors in three doesn't seem like the most overwhelming argument for Olajuwon to leapfrog Malone let alone Stockton and Malone both -- especially considering that Stockton's advanced metrics (PER, WS) indicate that he played better than Hakeem. Hell, he has to pass up KJ as well.

Again, I'm just standardizing off of your system. I find the vote more understandable without those benchmarks underpinning.

@kaima

Nice argumentation against Ewing, I see it the same way.

And so do the metrics used.

I've voted Ewing high before, but I can't figure out what people are looking at in this instance. Snowball effect.

All the Ewing votes in this thread might be, yes, the worst I've seen in this project. There's just not a very good defense for him, that I can find.

It's disturbingly close to a bunch of posters copying answers. Ugh.

[mysticbb]

Don't know what your standard generally is, but it seems funny to me that both Malone and Stockton rank (or don't) beneath Olajuwon even as your formula ranks them higher. They also won more games.

I base my voting not just on those stats, but I use the stats as an indicator. I said that a couple of times already that I think Olajuwon's impact is bigger than his boxscore numbers. The difference is there, but for me the difference is smaller. Well, in fact in my own rating Olajuwon finished the season with 17.5, Malone with 17.8, taking into account that the Jazz lost to an inferior team in the 1st round (a sweep!), makes that difference for me non-existent.

Again, I'm just standardizing off of your system. I find the vote more understandable without those benchmarks underpinning.

As I said those numbers aren't presented a system I would use alone to rank the players. It is just something to help me decide who can be a Top5 player and who not. Not making that list is for me a HUGE sign that a player isn't Top5 worthy.

[kaima]

1) MJ
2) Magic
3) Malone
4) Chuck
5) Dream

Felt like Jordan was just too good; for those inclined towards consistent teammate and facilitation arguments, however, I can truly understand a Magic-number-1 vote.

On the other hand, I don't understand posters who talk about vague defensive standards winning out for Cs over 4s and then ignoring Magic's relative limitations there, in an overall argument that favors him over MJ.

Again, consistency.

Last (next) two years I thought Barkley was better than Malone in a soclose instance (90 I was swayed by Malone's playoffs; in 91, I was so conflicted, and even though many tiebreakers said Malone, I went with Barkley on a gut vote).

This year, they did about the same in the playoffs -- I thought Malone was better on purely dominant, primary stats -- while Malone had the better team (mark against or for?), the better regular season individually, and however lacking this metric is, dominated Barkley in their two matchups -- for what it's worth, I looked for a larger sample going forward, and the same thing happened in 91.

Not close to perfect, but I don't see any reason to rank Barkley over Malone.

Interestingly, when Malone leads in season awards, as he does this year (3rd in MVP voting, only unanimous pick to the All-NBA team) people seem to ignore this factor largely. Yet when a Drexler or Barkley lead him in these categories, it becomes almost an automatic for many that they will vote these players over Malone.

Not my standard, but it is dichotomy that continues to play.

Akeem was great. Feel the other guys did more, however.

HM: Stockton

Real close to putting Stockton on there. Not big on team success as an overriding standard -- just one of many -- so the first round sweep doesn't bother me that much. Stockton was pretty awesome in both seasons, and I again feel like I'm mistreating him.