Retro POY '87-88 (Voting Complete)

[Sedale Threatt]

I always thought Isiah was a guy whose statistics don't reflect his true impact. Yes, he had a great supporting cast (arguably one of the best of all-time), but I really think it was his intensity, competitiveness, toughness, and leadership that gave the Bad Boys its character.

I agree with this completely. Not enough to put him in the Top 5. But even though that was pretty clearly a rare ensemble championship team, I endorse all the intangible credit you're giving him. He was a fierce, fierce competitor who set the emotional tone for that team. Few teams had as much swagger as those Pistons did, and it all started with him.

[Doctor MJ]

Michael Jordan didn't deserve the DPOY, and I'm not penalazing Magic Johnson for having good teammates.

So some things I think need to be mentioned:

-In '86-87 Magic took his impact to a new level, which lasted through '89-90. Of those 4 years, '87-88 seems easily the worst year:

-Lowest PER of regular & post-season
-Lowest games played in regular season
-Lowest MPG played in regular season
-Weakest team offensive efficiency
-Weakest team SRS

Yes, the Lakers won the title this year and not the next two, but then, they barely beat the Pistons this year, and then the Pistons got a lot better.

[Gongxi]

Right now I have Magic at number one and Bird/Jordan battling for number two, with MJ having an edge. Hakeem is right behind them. Drexler, Malone, Barkley, and Nique are battling for the fifth spot.

Magic isn't guaranteed the top spot though. I want to read what other's think.

MJ has the statisical edge over Magic but also the fact he became the first player and is one of only two players to win MVP and DPOY the same year IMO, gives him the edge over Magic.
Magic won the title this year, but didn't win Finals MVP. His teammate did so in a game 7 getting 36/16/10. I think if Magic has Finals MVP this year, then it is much closer with him and MJ.

Michael Jordan didn't deserve the DPOY, and I'm not penalazing Magic Johnson for having good teammates.

Whether he deserved it or not, it shows that he was a very different level defensively than Magic, who didn't even garner All-Defensive team consideration.

[Optimism Prime]

I have a big problem with this. Two points--that in your eyes could have happened with him on the bench--should not send a player streaking up the rankings. Sorry man, but that's kind of ridiculous, don't you think?

I don't agree that it's ridiculous. Isiah is clearly already a top 10 player, and there's not much that separates top 10 from top 5 this year. If the Pistons win in 6, he clearly has a better resume than what James Worthy has put together (leadership, statistics, clutchness, historic performance, etc.), and I don't think it's ridiculous to consider James Worthy as a borderline-top 5 (although that's pushing it).

I always thought Isiah was a guy whose statistics don't reflect his true impact. Yes, he had a great supporting cast (arguably one of the best of all-time), but I really think it was his intensity, competitiveness, toughness, and leadership that gave the Bad Boys its character.

Here's my point: If you want to list him in your top 5, do it. I won't agree, but I won't argue, either.

I'm arguing with letting a single basket shoot him up your rankings. Like I said in my original post--you're letting two points determine at least two places (moving him from outside the top 5 to top 4). If they'd gotten an extra basket with him on the bench... why should he get so much credit?

Also, I really don't see the Bad Boy Pistons as a supporting cast; they're a team. It's like saying that the '04 Pistons put a great cast around Billups... those champions were both determined by team play, not individuals.

[lorak]

I'm thinking about squeezing James Worthy into the fifth slot on the strength of his Game 7 performance alone. Not only did he set season-highs in all three categories, he did so en route to the only triple double of his career (1,069 games). As Hollinger wrote about recently, the odds of doing all that in a single game, especially against a good defensive team, are staggering. The fact that it came in probably the most important game of his life speaks very, very well of James.

So 2010 finals game 7 speaks very bad of Bryant?

What the hell does Kobe Bryant have to do with the '87-88 POY?

Nothing, but that's the same logic - judgemend based on one game. Very important, but still only one game.

[ronnymac2]

Michael Jordan didn't deserve the DPOY, and I'm not penalazing Magic Johnson for having good teammates.

So some things I think need to be mentioned:

-In '86-87 Magic took his impact to a new level, which lasted through '89-90. Of those 4 years, '87-88 seems easily the worst year:

-Lowest PER of regular & post-season
-Lowest games played in regular season
-Lowest MPG played in regular season
-Weakest team offensive efficiency
-Weakest team SRS

Yes, the Lakers won the title this year and not the next two, but then, they barely beat the Pistons this year, and then the Pistons got a lot better.

Well, maybe Magic in 1988 wouldn't beat out Magic in 87, 89, or 90. But he doesn't have to here.

Those team aspects could be for a variety of reasons. I mean, look at KAJ from 87 to 88. All of his stats went down, expecially in the playoffs. Why is that important? Well, on a run-n-gun team like LA, Jabbar's ability to score in the halfcourt in the playoffs when things bog down was important. The playoffs were a lot tougher for the Lakers in 1988, and I think Jabbar's decline could be the biggest reason for that. Seriously, look at his playoff TS% in 87 and 88.

Was Magic a worse player? He had worse stats, sure. HIs team still won 62 games (they were 5-5 in the games played without him), he still was third in mvp voting, and his team won the championship, with Magic performing like a superstar individually. He played like a GOAT in the finals and was screwed out of a finals MVP (yeah, I said it). He was better in the finals against Detroit than Michael Jordan was against Detroit. 21/13/6/2 with 3 to's and 10 trips to the line per game. Great percentages.

He was the constant in the series. Worthy and Scott and the rest could have great shooting nights or poor ones, but Magic was the constant, even in losses. He had the flu in game 2, and with his team in danger of losing both games at home, he dropped 23/13/7. He dropped 22/19 in game 6 with his team down 3-2. He dropped 19/14 in game 7.

It should be noted that in over 50% of Magic's playoffs games, he was going up against a top 2 defense in the league that year ito defensive rating. That might explain his so-called "drop" in play.


Gongxi- Yeah, Jordan's better on D than Magic. I was just disputing that Jordan should get credit for not only being better than Magic on D, but being the best defensive player in the league.

[Sedale Threatt]

Nothing, but that's the same logic - judgemend based on one game. Very important, but still only one game.

People are free to judge and measure and rate how they want. In some instances one or two games are just that important.

Case in point -- the Ron Artest signing. He doesn't do what he did over the past two games, by outscoring Paul Pierce in each game, and the Lakers don't win the title, it's likely viewed as a failure. And I would have completely supported that.

In this instance, Worthy's performance was so spectacular, and so clutch, and so important -- it basically tipped the balance of that year's championship -- that I think it's deserving of a measly fifth-place vote.

[Jordan23Forever]

Michael Jordan didn't deserve the DPOY, and I'm not penalazing Magic Johnson for having good teammates.

He certainly had as good a case as anyone. He became the only player in history to record 200+ steals and 100+ blocks in the same season for two consecutive seasons with a stunning 259 stl/131 blk -- no one else had ever even done that once to that point. Jordan also had the 5th best DRTg that season, a stat generally biased towards big men (all players ahead of him that year were bigs). His team finished 3rd in DRtg that season, ahead of Hakeem's Rockets despite the fact that MJ didn't have a standout defender on his team like Dream did in defensive first teamer McCray (Pip/Grant were bench-warming, foul prone rookies; Oakley was a solid, but not spectacular post defender at that point in his career). Jordan's frenetic, swarming defense which affected both perimeter and post players was the main reason those Bulls were as good defensively as they were that year.

So yeah, he did deserve it just as much as anyone else did.

[lorak]

[

Was Magic a worse player? He had worse stats, sure. HIs team still won 62 games (they were 5-5 in the games played without him), he still was third in mvp voting, and his team won the championship, with Magic performing like a superstar individually. He played like a GOAT in the finals and was screwed out of a finals MVP (yeah, I said it). He was better in the finals against Detroit than Michael Jordan was against Detroit. 21/13/6/2 with 3 to's and 10 trips to the line per game. Great percentages.

Good points. I was leaning towards Jordan as no 1, but now I don't know.

BTW
Magic had 55 FG% against Pistons
Jordan 49.5

[Sedale Threatt]

[He played like a GOAT in the finals and was screwed out of a finals MVP (yeah, I said it).

What happened to Magic here wasn't any different than what happened to Kareem in 1980. They had the overall better series, but those single games were so historically good that you can easily make a case for the guys who ended up winning the awards.

[JordansBulls]

Michael Jordan didn't deserve the DPOY, and I'm not penalazing Magic Johnson for having good teammates.

So some things I think need to be mentioned:

-In '86-87 Magic took his impact to a new level, which lasted through '89-90. Of those 4 years, '87-88 seems easily the worst year:

-Lowest PER of regular & post-season
-Lowest games played in regular season
-Lowest MPG played in regular season
-Weakest team offensive efficiency
-Weakest team SRS

Yes, the Lakers won the title this year and not the next two, but then, they barely beat the Pistons this year, and then the Pistons got a lot better.

Well, maybe Magic in 1988 wouldn't beat out Magic in 87, 89, or 90. But he doesn't have to here.

Those team aspects could be for a variety of reasons. I mean, look at KAJ from 87 to 88. All of his stats went down, expecially in the playoffs. Why is that important? Well, on a run-n-gun team like LA, Jabbar's ability to score in the halfcourt in the playoffs when things bog down was important. The playoffs were a lot tougher for the Lakers in 1988, and I think Jabbar's decline could be the biggest reason for that. Seriously, look at his playoff TS% in 87 and 88.

Was Magic a worse player? He had worse stats, sure. HIs team still won 62 games (they were 5-5 in the games played without him), he still was third in mvp voting, and his team won the championship, with Magic performing like a superstar individually. He played like a GOAT in the finals and was screwed out of a finals MVP (yeah, I said it). He was better in the finals against Detroit than Michael Jordan was against Detroit. 21/13/6/2 with 3 to's and 10 trips to the line per game. Great percentages.

He was the constant in the series. Worthy and Scott and the rest could have great shooting nights or poor ones, but Magic was the constant, even in losses. He had the flu in game 2, and with his team in danger of losing both games at home, he dropped 23/13/7. He dropped 22/19 in game 6 with his team down 3-2. He dropped 19/14 in game 7.

It should be noted that in over 50% of Magic's playoffs games, he was going up against a top 2 defense in the league that year ito defensive rating. That might explain his so-called "drop" in play.


Gongxi- Yeah, Jordan's better on D than Magic. I was just disputing that Jordan should get credit for not only being better than Magic on D, but being the best defensive player in the league.

Detroit centered there entire team on stopping MJ while the Pistons had to not only defend Magic, but also Worthy, Kareem, etc. And truthfully speaking that BS call on Laimbeer handed LA the title.

[Jordan23Forever]

BTW
Magic had 55 FG% against Pistons

Source? How many ppg? And regardless, there were no "Magic Rules" for a good reason; these two players did not see the same sort of defensive attention vs. Detroit.

[JordansBulls]

BTW
Magic had 55 FG% against Pistons

Source? How many ppg? And regardless, there were no "Magic Rules" for a good reason; these two players did not see the same sort of defensive attention vs. Detroit.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... inals.html

[semi-sentient]

lol... how many ppg?

I'm pretty sure once assists are factored in it doesn't matter, and the Pistons couldn't have played Magic the way they played Jordan anyway. Magic was always looking to get out on the break and didn't put himself in the same situations that Jordan did. I've seen plenty of video during the "Jordan Rules" years where he is taking shots with 3 defenders on him, much like Kobe did in 2004/2008.

Jordan is supposed to get a pass for those type of low percentage shots? Go look at some of that video on YouTube and you'll see plenty of situations where he took a bad shot when he could have dumped the ball off to someone else. He was just taking it personally and trying to beat the Pistons on his own. When Magic posts up he usually gets a very high percentage shot for himself or dumps it off to someone with a brilliant pass when the defense least expected it. You hardly ever see Jordan doing that kind of thing unless he gets caught in the air and makes on of those wraparound passes, which is more of a fortunate bailout than a spectacular offensive play.

Maybe that's why Magic is more valuable though -- because you can't shut him down by forcing him into taking poor shots or making bad passes. He controls/dictates what happens on offense and that's a bit more difficult to stop than someone whose primary role is to score points.

[ronnymac2]

Michael Jordan didn't deserve the DPOY, and I'm not penalazing Magic Johnson for having good teammates.

He certainly had as good a case as anyone. He became the only player in history to record 200+ steals and 100+ blocks in the same season for two consecutive seasons with a stunning 259 stl/131 blk -- no one else had ever even done that once to that point. Jordan also had the 5th best DRTg that season, a stat generally biased towards big men (all players ahead of him that year were bigs). His team finished 3rd in DRtg that season, ahead of Hakeem's Rockets despite the fact that MJ didn't have a standout defender on his team like Dream did in defensive first teamer McCray (Pip/Grant were bench-warming, foul prone rookies; Oakley was a solid, but not spectacular post defender at that point in his career). Jordan's frenetic, swarming defense which affected both perimeter and post players was the main reason those Bulls were as good defensively as they were that year.

So yeah, he did deserve it just as much as anyone else did.

Eaton blocked 3 shots per game and led the best defensive team in the league. Let's disregard him because he's a specialist.

What about Hakeem? He led the league in defensive rating and defensive win shares and averaged 2.7 blocks and 2.1 steals. 2.1 steals- good for top 10 in steals in the league. Hakeem was just as much an outlier for centers at stealing as Jordan was for blocking shots as a swingman.

What about rebounding though? By any metric, Hakeem was a top defensive rebounder in the entire league that year. Defensive rebound rate, total defensive rebounds, etc. He wasn't a specialist. FWIW, he was put on the all-d first team. 79 games, 36 minutes per game. His defensive stats in the playoffs were outstanding (4 game sample though).


Look, I'm not saying Jordan's season wasn't special on defense. He's a top-3 perimeter defender ever, and you could use this season to use as evidence that MJ is arguably the GOAT perimeter defender. That doesn't make him better than Hakeem on defense this year though. I wouldn't take any perimeter defender ever over 88 Hakeem.

Just as an aside (still directly relates to the thread): the Bulls were a defense first team. They had to be. Outside of Jordan, every other offensive player was average at best individually. They were just awful as a team. They made the 2010 Heat outside of D-Wade look good on offense. How Jordan shot 53% and racked up 35/6 is beyond me. They played very good defense as a team though.

[semi-sentient]

Agreed, as far as Eaton and Hakeem are concerned. Jordan was still a phenomenal defender, but those two guys had better cases for DPOY.

[lorak]

The "Jordan rules" thing is so overrated.
Some Jordan fans are acting like MJ was the only player in history who ever got defensive attention from opposite team. It's like Hakeem's fans who think that he's the only one who ever was double teamed.

[ronnymac2]

[He played like a GOAT in the finals and was screwed out of a finals MVP (yeah, I said it).

What happened to Magic here wasn't any different than what happened to Kareem in 1980. They had the overall better series, but those single games were so historically good that you can easily make a case for the guys who ended up winning the awards.

All right. But the insinuation that Kareem in 80 or Magic in 88 were not the best players in the finals is something I want to guard against. Especially in Magic's case, considering he still actually played in the last game and played well at that.

Magic not winning the Finals MVP in this situation should subtract from him. Especially since this may have been his finest finals ever when you take all circumstances into account.

[JordansBulls]

[He played like a GOAT in the finals and was screwed out of a finals MVP (yeah, I said it).

What happened to Magic here wasn't any different than what happened to Kareem in 1980. They had the overall better series, but those single games were so historically good that you can easily make a case for the guys who ended up winning the awards.

All right. But the insinuation that Kareem in 80 or Magic in 88 were not the best players in the finals is something I want to guard against. Especially in Magic's case, considering he still actually played in the last game and played well at that.

Magic not winning the Finals MVP in this situation should subtract from him. Especially since this may have been his finest finals ever when you take all circumstances into account.

Again though, it is game 7 of the NBA Finals, you shouldn't have your teammate clearly outshine you as much as Worthy did in that game. I mean 36/16/10.

[ronnymac2]

So if Magic has a good game and Worthy drops 6/5/4 and the Lakers lose, Magic is a worse player than before? And if Magic has a good game and Worthy drops 36/16/10 and the Lakers win, Magic is a worse player than before?

Ummmm...........okay.