'Short' time till the Draft

[Walton'sBeard!]

Can a team that says they will do a sign and trade at some point after the player signed the contract to the team that is tradeing him decide not to do the trade and decide keep him?
basicley trick him to stay on a team?
id hope theres rules against that

Haha, no. S&T are contracts. The trade is written into the contract.

[cucad8]

What if we kept Aldridge, and sent them Camby, Batum, Bayless, Rudy and Joel for Bosh and Calderon?

I believe that works financially. They said they still want to stay competitive, Camby at C allows them to be, with Bargs.

Miller/Calderon
Roy
Webster
Bosh/Aldridge
Oden/Aldridge

Would hurt our depth a bit on the wings. Would have a great trio up front though, with Aldridge basically taking Camby's supposed role for this season, backup at PF and C.

For Toronto

Jack/Bayless
Derozan/Rudy
Batum/Hedo
Bargnani/Amir Johnson
Camby/Orton
They get 3 good youn gpieces to help build around in batum, Bayless and Rudy to go along with Derozan and Bargnani. Use the 13 on a C like Orton to fill in behind Camby?

[Wizenheimer]

What if we kept Aldridge, and sent them Camby, Batum, Bayless, Rudy and Joel for Bosh and Calderon?

I believe that works financially. They said they still want to stay competitive, Camby at C allows them to be, with Bargs.

Miller/Calderon
Roy
Webster
Bosh/Aldridge
Oden/Aldridge

Would hurt our depth a bit on the wings. Would have a great trio up front though, with Aldridge basically taking Camby's supposed role for this season, backup at PF and C.

For Toronto

Jack/Bayless
Derozan/Rudy
Batum/Hedo
Bargnani/Amir Johnson
Camby/Orton
They get 3 good youn gpieces to help build around in batum, Bayless and Rudy to go along with Derozan and Bargnani. Use the 13 on a C like Orton to fill in behind Camby?

don't like it that much

and frankly, if Bosh truly wanted to come here, he probably wouldn't like it either. And for all we know, he may want to get far away from Calderon

and if Bosh did want to come to Portland and gave the Raptors a take it or leave it line, the Blazers wouldn't have to give up anything close to that to get Bosh. They could certainly keep Batum

I would think, after last season, that everybody can see the giant danger in gutting a team's depth, and this trade would do that, in spades

[jeffhardyfan52]

If bosh wants to come to portland all we have to do is match money
i dont think we would be to firendly with the raptors either

[cucad8]

If Bosh says I want to go to Portland, take it or leave it, they leave it, and he has to come here for the MLE. I'm not saying they have a ton of leverage, but if he wants to come here, they do. At least with Chicago or somewhere with cap space, he isn't leaving as much on the table. He NEEDS Toronto in order to come here, and they would know that.

[jeffhardyfan52]

They would get nothing in return for him

[cucad8]

They would get nothing in return for him

Yes, but when he can sign a deal worth roughly 6 years, 115 million, he sure as hell isn't signing the MLE, 5 years, 35 million to come here. He' snot leaving 80 million dollars on the table. That's ludicrous to think he's just gonna sign a MLE deal. He NEEDS them to get his money if he wants to come here, or another team with no cap space.

[Wizenheimer]

They would get nothing in return for him

Yes, but when he can sign a deal worth roughly 6 years, 115 million, he sure as hell isn't signing the MLE, 5 years, 35 million to come here. He' snot leaving 80 million dollars on the table. That's ludicrous to think he's just gonna sign a MLE deal. He NEEDS them to get his money if he wants to come here, or another team with no cap space.

the often quoted "he'd lose 30 million dollars by not doing a sign & trade" isn't entirely accurate. Yes, that would be guaranteed money. But if he plays the next 6 years (extremely likely), then the only difference between a straight signing and a sign & trade is the difference between 5 years of 10.5% raises or 5 years of 8% raises.

Basically, that would be 15 X .025 X 16 million, or around 6 million. Then it would be the differential between the last year of a sign & trade, or the 1st year of a new contract. With a new CBA, that could be another 6 million difference

so, for the next 6 years, he's have a choice (approximately) of making 118 million or 130 million

granted, 12 million is nothing to sneeze at. But if the Raptors played some hardball with him, Bosh would have the simple option of signing a max contract with one of the cap-space teams. A 118 million consolation prize is pretty nice, especially if the Raptors piss him off and he wants to tell them to bite it and get nothing for his departure

[cucad8]

I'm still curious about the hint of a third team being involved. I wonder if it has to do with us giving up a piece that the other team might not be all that interested in to match salaries(say, Miller, but they don't want an older PG) and they would prefer to get another piece at that spot? Or is it to try to help the team save even more money somehow?

For instance, not saying I would do this deal, but Joel, Miller, Bayless and Batum for Nash, Hill and Barbosa would work after July 1st(Nash's salary decreases). But perhaps Phoenix figures with Dragic and Bayless, they don't really want Miller taking up playing time, and don't want him to get cranky, so they'd like to include a 3rd team, to move Miller to, for, say, a C or something instead, like Indy for Jeff Foster.

[cucad8]

They would get nothing in return for him

Yes, but when he can sign a deal worth roughly 6 years, 115 million, he sure as hell isn't signing the MLE, 5 years, 35 million to come here. He' snot leaving 80 million dollars on the table. That's ludicrous to think he's just gonna sign a MLE deal. He NEEDS them to get his money if he wants to come here, or another team with no cap space.

the often quoted "he'd lose 30 million dollars by not doing a sign & trade" isn't entirely accurate. Yes, that would be guaranteed money. But if he plays the next 6 years (extremely likely), then the only difference between a straight signing and a sign & trade is the difference between 5 years of 10.5% raises or 5 years of 8% raises.

Basically, that would be 15 X .025 X 16 million, or around 6 million. Then it would be the differential between the last year of a sign & trade, or the 1st year of a new contract. With a new CBA, that could be another 6 million difference

so, for the next 6 years, he's have a choice (approximately) of making 118 million or 130 million

granted, 12 million is nothing to sneeze at. But if the Raptors played some hardball with him, Bosh would have the simple option of signing a max contract with one of the cap-space teams. A 118 million consolation prize is pretty nice, especially if the Raptors piss him off and he wants to tell them to bite it and get nothing for his departure

But you can't just factor in the first year of a new deal and assume he receives that. It's the difference between hoping you get that, and having it guaranteed that you get that amount. You leave money on the table, and you hope for good health and consistent playing ability. If he gets hurt or falls off considerably, he doesn't make amount in a new deal. For simple guaranteed money, it's wiser to take the larger deal. And hard ball or not, he isn't walking HERE, which is all I'm really concerned about. It doesn't help us any if he screws them and just walks to NY if they try to play hard ball.

[DeBlazerRiddem]

If Bosh says I want to go to Portland, take it or leave it, they leave it, and he has to come here for the MLE. I'm not saying they have a ton of leverage, but if he wants to come here, they do. At least with Chicago or somewhere with cap space, he isn't leaving as much on the table. He NEEDS Toronto in order to come here, and they would know that.

We could try and get tricky and sign and trade with a team that wants our package (*snicker*) for free (though what self respecting GM would do that...) He would still lose some money (since TOR can give him the most) but would get more than the MLE. I thought of this too, but as long as we aren't giving them useless players it's still better than getting nothing. If we just match what we have to, (about?) 12 million, they automatically save 4 million. They already have enough guards so I don't see them being real interested in Rudy+Bayless. Webster might interest them somewhat, but Batum would likely be the main target. Honestly, I think we have to give up Aldridge (or Camby but that really isn't a good idea), and probably at least get a 3rd team involved. Aldridge and Bosh have too many overlapping strengths/weaknesses as neither would fill in next to the other at center very well (especially not in the long-term case of injury).

I am not entirely sure how the BYC contract works (and all my numbers are rounded) but if TOR takes Aldridge's contract it counts for about 11 million, they would need (about?) another 1-2 million to get within 125% of Bosh's maximum S&T. If we give Aldridge it counts for about 5.5 million, so we would have to send out at least another 6.5 million. Assuming a team will send a worthy 2 million dollar player to TOR and take 6.5 million of our contracts, they would have to send out a range of 3.5-8.5 million dollar player to us. Can someone please check my math and logic because I haven't dealt with this stuff very much.

[cucad8]

But as you said, if AAldridge and Bosh overlap too much, why would Toronto bother trying to pair up a lesser player in Aldridge with Bargnani, when it was clear that Bosh and Bargnani didn't work together? Everyone sees them as similar, so Toronto would love taking him back, because they get a cheaper alternative, but their team has been mediocre because they don't pair up well together(amongst other reasons). So I can not see them just going with the same thing, and hoping this time, with a worse player, it'll actually work out for them. That doesn't make much sense.

Also, you can't S&T him with another team.

[EGame]

To not lose Bosh for nothing...

[cucad8]

To not lose Bosh for nothing...

I would think a 16 million dollar TPE and a future first would help their team way more, so they can try to find pieces that might fit as opposed to just trying the same thing over, with lesser players, for the next 5 years.

[EGame]

Erm, not all teams operate like that. Teams are always going to explore trading options for there star when they no longer want to stay and see if they have deals. Now obviously, there may be other deals that are much more attractive to them, that is a given. But a deal of Aldridge/Rudy/Bayless/Webster/whoever is pretty dang attractive just for Aldridge's/Rudy's/ and Bayless' potential alone. We may even work out a deal to take a horrible contract (not Hedo's). It isn't as if these guys we are trading away are crap and they could be considered "lesser" players and fill holes as well...

[Agenda42]

To not lose Bosh for nothing...

I would think a 16 million dollar TPE and a future first would help their team way more, so they can try to find pieces that might fit as opposed to just trying the same thing over, with lesser players, for the next 5 years.

Given a choice between a TPE/1st and Aldridge, I'd take Aldridge in a heartbeat. If Bargnani and Aldridge don't end up fitting together, just trade one at the deadline. As non-stiff young bigs, neither would be difficult to move.

The TPE would be handier if there weren't so many teams with cap space. As it is, this is a bad year to have a big TPE and hope to get a player for it.

[SoHo]

Given a choice between a TPE/1st and Aldridge, I'd take Aldridge in a heartbeat. If Bargnani and Aldridge don't end up fitting together, just trade one at the deadline. As non-stiff young bigs, neither would be difficult to move.

The TPE would be handier if there weren't so many teams with cap space. As it is, this is a bad year to have a big TPE and hope to get a player for it.

I agree, TPEs won't have much use this season with all the cap space floating around.

Toronto would likely be much better off taking Aldridge and looking to immediately ship him elsewhere. If nothing else they could at least attach one of their less than desirable contracts and send him to a team under the cap (please god not OKC...).

[cucad8]

Yeah, I'd take Aldridge for our team over a TPE. If I'm Toronto, though, I don't. It's always easy to say just trade them later. Work out the details later. Hope what hasn't worked for 3 years magically works. I'm just saying I see no point in trying the same thing for them. And though Aldridge is more valuable than nothing, they can turn around and use a TPE to potentially get someone that would actually fit their team, if another team is cutting salary. Aldridge doesn't help someone else cut salary. You just have to deal with his BYC during the season while looking for a taker, as well. Maybe you turn around and take Collison and Okafor for that TPE. Be a better fit than Aldridge, and N.O. dumps a ton of salary in a hurry. I don't know. But N.O. can't make that deal for Aldridge. IMO, Toronto is a mess that needs to be completely stripped down. And I don't think adding a player on a 65 million dollar deal helps do that, personally.

[EGame]

Then trade Oden for Bosh, problem solved.

[Bob loblaw]

Then trade Oden for Bosh, problem solved.

I'm not sure if you are serious or not. I would only trade Oden for CP3, and I would still be reluctant. Bosh is very good, but I don't think he is a champion-type upgrade either. I would send out LA, Rudy, Bayless, and #22 to get him. I think that would be the best S&T Toronto will be able to get for him.

Miller/?
Roy/Webster
Batum/Cunningham
Bosh/?
Oden/Camby

holes to fill, but wow...