Retro POY '87-88 (Voting Complete)

[JordansBulls]

One thing I wanted to mention is that although Magic led his team in PER and Win Shares on the season, he barely did so.

Magic's Win Shares was a 10.9 and Scott had a 10.7 and he was the 3rd leading scorer on the team in the season and 2nd the playoffs.

Jordan in contrast had a 21.2 Win Shares on the season (which is almost double what Magic had on the entire season)

While Magic overall in the playoffs was better due to him winning, the difference wasn't able to make up the fact that MJ was MVP and DPOY the same year. Especially considering he averaged 45/5/5 on 53% FG in round 1 and 36/7/5 on 53% FG overall.

Also let's not forget that Magic's team had to go thru 3 game 7's to win it all, against a 47 win team, 53 win team and 54 win team when the Lakers won 62 games themselves.

[sp6r=underrated]

One thing I wanted to mention is that although Magic led his team in PER and Win Shares on the season, he barely did so.

Magic's Win Shares was a 10.9 and Scott had a 10.7 and he was the 3rd leading scorer on the team in the season and 2nd the playoffs.

This point was already brought up in thread and has been brought up by countless posters before, but apparently it needs to be repeated

That's a funny way to put it. The philosophy of a point guard is one where if a teammate is getting good looks, you try to feed him because using teammates with good looks is going to be more effective than what you can do yourself no matter who you are.

A good distributor will raise the efficiency of his teammates and their overall value in stats like PER/WS etc. I remember when you were citing J-Rich WS totals to criticize Nash.

A lot of the Lakers never would have shot as well without Magic. A lot of Magic's statistical value is shown by looking at the shooting percentages of his teammates.

The fact that someone like B-Scott is close to Magic in WS isn't an indictment of Magic rather it shows the limitation of stats like those you always cite from B-R.

[ronnymac2]

Final Vote:

Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Hakeem Olajuwon
Dominique Wilkins

Super-Honorable Mention: Karl Malone

Honorable Mention: Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Isiah Thomas

I honestly don't know if my choice at five is correct. It looks weird to me.

[jicama]

One player is just way, way better than everyone else, season and playoffs.

Code: Select all

  28.2      Michael Jordan      Chi                 
88   eWins   G   Min   Eff%   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl    TO   Blk   e484
RS   22.8   82   40   .591   36.5   5.4   5.4   3.0   2.9   1.5   3.33
PS    2.7   10   43   .586   37.0   6.5   4.4   2.2   3.5   1.0   3.11
                                 
   24.6      Larry Bird      Bos                 
88   eWins   G   Min   Eff%   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk   e484
RS   18.1   76   39   .599   30.7   9.7   5.4   1.6   2.7   .7   2.96
PS    3.3   17   45   .529   20.9   8.4   5.7   1.8   2.5   .7   2.07
                                 
   21.4      Magic Johnson      LA                 
88   eWins   G   Min   Eff%   Sco   Reb    Ast   Stl   TO   Blk   e484
RS   12.3   72   37   .568   20.0   6.5   11.0   1.6   3.8   .2   2.26
PS    4.5   24   40   .587   20.4   5.6   11.5   1.3   3.3   .2   2.28

Any 2 of the next 3 for the 4-5 spots:

Code: Select all

   18.3      Karl Malone      Uta                 
88   eWins   G   Min   Eff%   Sco   Reb    Ast   Stl   TO   Blk   e484
RS   14.4   82   39   .555   26.9   11.5   2.2   1.4   3.8   .6   2.18
PS    2.0   11   45   .526   25.3   10.9   1.3   1.0   3.1   .6   1.93
                                 
   18.02      Charles Barkley      Phl                 
88   eWins   G   Min   Eff%   Sco    Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk   e484
RS   18.0   80   40   .644   30.9   12.0   2.9   1.2   3.6  1.2   2.75 
                             
   18.01      John Stockton      Uta                 
88   eWins   G   Min   Eff%   Sco   Reb    Ast   Stl   TO   Blk   e484
RS   13.4   82   35   .632   17.8   3.0   13.7   3.1   3.4   .2   2.28
PS    2.3   11   43   .599   19.4   3.9   12.9   3.0   3.9   .2   2.34

Mentions:

Code: Select all

   17.3      Isiah Thomas      Det                 
88  eWins   G   Min   Eff%   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk   e484
RS   9.5   81   36   .513   18.7   3.6   8.1   1.8   3.5   .2   1.57
PS   3.9   23   40   .510   21.3   4.7   8.6   2.8   3.5   .3   2.07
                                 
   17.1      Dominique Wilkins     Atl                 
88   eWins   G   Min   Eff%   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk   e484
RS   13.2   78   38   .525   29.1   6.5   2.7   1.3   2.8   .6   2.16
PS    2.0   12   39   .516   27.4   6.8   2.5   1.3   2.4   .5   2.04
                                 
   16.8      Kevin McHale      Bos                 
88   eWins   G   Min   Eff%   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk   e484
RS   10.3   64   37   .641   25.6   9.1   2.4   .4   2.2   1.4   2.09
PS    3.3   17   42   .654   28.1   8.0   2.1   .4   2.1   1.6   2.20

Also ran:

Code: Select all

   15.9      Akeem Olajuwon      Hou                 
88   eWins   G   Min   Eff%   Sco    Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk   e484
RS   13.2   79   36   .544   22.7   12.0   2.0   2.1   3.2  2.8   2.26
PS    1.4    4   41   .628   39.4   16.0   1.6   2.1   2.1  2.6   4.13
                                 
   14.9      Clyde Drexler      Por                 
88   eWins   G   Min   Eff%   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk   e484
RS   13.9   81   38   .554   25.2   6.5   5.0   2.5   2.9   .6   2.20
PS     .5    4   43   .451   15.8   6.4   4.5   2.7   2.7   .5   1.31


[mysticbb]

Stats for that season:

Code: Select all

Rk Player              PER  WS   ON   SUM
1  Michael Jordan     30.8 22.6  6.6 60.0
2  Charles Barkley    27.6 16.7  3.3 47.6
3  Larry Bird         24.5 16.3  4.6 45.4
4  John Stockton      23.0 16.3  6.1 45.3
5  Magic Johnson      23.0 15.3  5.0 43.2
6  Hakeem Olajuwon    25.7 13.3  3.1 42.1
7  Kevin McHale       21.9 14.2  5.0 41.0
8  Clyde Drexler      22.9 12.9  4.0 39.8
9  Adrian Dantley     18.8 12.3  4.7 35.8
10 Fat Lever          20.6 11.6  3.6 35.8
11 Dominique Wilkins  23.4 10.3  1.5 35.3
12 Isiah Thomas       19.4 11.5  3.9 34.8
13 Doc Rivers         21.1 10.4  3.1 34.5
14 Roy Tarpley        21.0 10.5  2.6 34.1
15 Byron Scott        17.9 12.1  4.0 34.0
16 James Worthy       19.3 11.0  3.4 33.7
17 Karl Malone        20.0 10.6  2.3 32.9
18 Danny Schayes      19.1 10.5  2.9 32.5
19 Mark Aguirre       21.3  9.3  1.7 32.3
20 Moses Malone       20.6  9.6  0.3 30.4

For me Jordan is clearly the #1, Barkley didn't make the playoffs, thus he will lose a spot or two. Magic led the Lakers to the title. Even though Worthy got the Finals MVP I give Magic more credit for this. Olajuwon makes up a lot of ground due to the incredible playoffs series against the Mavs. But the Mavs also didn't really had a center rotation which were able to compete and overall the Rockets still lost in 4 games. Bird vs. Magic? Well, both missed a couple of games and Bird lost to the Pistons earlier. It could go either way imho, but I will keep Bird ahead of Magic in this season.

Vote:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Larry Bird
3. Magic Johnson
4. Charles Barkley
5. John Stockton

[kaima]

More Stockton love:

April 25, 1988
Not A Passing Fancy
Utah's surprising John Stockton is the NBA assist leader, and he can score and play plenty of solid defense, too
Jack McCallum



For the first 22 years of his life, John Stockton's movements could be plotted on a small section of a Spokane, Wash., city map. He walked the five blocks from his house on North Superior Street to his parochial grammar school, St. Aloysius, on East Mission Avenue. After school he would stop in at Jack & Dan's, a tavern on North Hamilton Street, to visit his father, co-owner Jack Stockton, and cadge a quarter to buy french fries across the street at the Dairy Freeze. It was a one-mile drive from his home to high school at Gonzaga Prep and just a four-block walk to Gonzaga University, where he would sneak into the gymnasium for pickup basketball games. In 1980 Stockton completed the cradle-to-free-throw-line journey by accepting a basketball scholarship to his neighborhood university.

"I never consciously thought about going all the way through the 'Gonzaga farm system,' but that's the way it happened," says Stockton today. Needless to say, no incoming freshman had less trouble with the pronunciation of the school's name. "The second syllable is like the 'zag' in 'zigzag,' " says Stockton. You get the feeling that he has been through the drill before.

In fact, an understanding of John Stockton has required a lot of orientation since he first attracted national attention after his senior year of 1983-84. Where is Gonzaga? (You know that now—it's three blocks from Jack & Dan's.) Who or what is a Gonzaga? (St. Aloysius Gonzaga is the patron saint of youth.) How did someone from Gonzaga nearly make Bob Knight's Olympic team? (By outplaying, according to many observers, every point guard at the trials, including the two who did make the team, Indiana's Steve Alford and Cal State-Fullerton's Leon Wood.) And how did somebody who stood only 6'1" and looked like an altar boy wind up as a first-round draft pick of the Utah Jazz in 1984? ("Because he has all the right qualities," said Jazz coach Frank Layden at the time. "And he's Irish.")

Stockton, 26, is still only 6'1" and still looks like an altar boy, but as Houston Rockets coach Bill Fitch says, "He's answered all the questions." In this, his fourth NBA season, Stockton has established himself as one of the league's top point guards. He also is the best-known Gonzagian since Bing Crosby, the former Bulldog second baseman who never graduated but whose statue, complete with pipe, stands on campus in front of the Crosby Library.

"Stock," as in rising, is compared most often with Philadelphia's Maurice Cheeks. Both are excellent dribblers with either hand—"John's dribbling skills make us practically press-proof," says Layden—but rarely do anything fancy. Both slither through small openings to create scoring opportunities near the basket, hit the open jump shot and, on defense, make life miserable for opponents with their quick hands and passing-lane anticipation.

Stockton, like Cheeks, does not have a discernible weakness, unless you're counting inches. "Every year he's just gotten better," says Gonzaga coach Dan Fitzgerald. "It's like he's on a ladder, going one step at a time."

Which makes one wonder what rung Stockton is on now. Through Sunday, with four regular-season games to go, he had locked up the NBA assist title with an average of 13.5 per game; the Lakers' Magic Johnson had 11.8.

For Stockton, last week was one to savor and remember. He had 16 assists against Golden State on April 11 and 20 against the Clippers the following night, to go over 1,000 for the season. Only two other players in NBA history, Isiah Thomas of Detroit in 1984-85 with 1,123 and Kevin Porter of the Pistons in 1978-79 with 1,099, had done it. Then last Thursday in a game against Portland, Stockton had 26, the league high—and franchise record—for the season. On Saturday, he added 16 more against San Antonio, giving him 1,056 for the season and increasing his chances to break Thomas's record.

Stockton was also third in steals and fourth in field goal percentage (.576). In fact, Stockton's shooting percentage is likely to be the second highest ever by a guard, behind Mike McGee's aberrational .594 for the Lakers in 1983-84. During a 24-game span that began on Feb. 17, Stockton averaged .663 (161 of 243) from the floor and shot better than .500 in every game, a staggering achievement for a point man.

Now, numbers need some interpretation. Stockton gets a lot of assists because the point guard in the Layden system has the ball most of the time. "Stockton controls it as much as any point guard in the league," says Houston's Sleepy Floyd, whose defense was primarily responsible for breaking Stockton's plus-.500 shooting streak during a 113-107 Rocket victory on April 7. And there are two other major reasons why Stockton gets a lot of assists—Karl Malone posting up on the blocks and Karl Malone steaming downcourt on the fast break. An assist man needs a "finisher"—Magic had Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and now he has both James Worthy and Byron Scott—and it's no secret that Stockton is looking for the "Mailman" most of the time, both in the half-court offense and in transition. As veteran point guard Rickey Green, now Stockton's backup, puts it, "People tend to get out of Karl's way, unless they want their careers to be over."



Stockton had to earn his teammates' confidence to get the ball as often as he does. Green ran the Layden-style break and had postup master Adrian Dantley on the blocks, yet averaged only 9.2 assists in his most productive passing year ('83-84). "You hear about shot selection all the time," says Layden, "but players like Magic and Stock have good pass selection." Stockton happens to have good shot selection, too. "It's not so much how well John is shooting it as when he's shooting it," says Green. "He's really making good decisions."

Stockton's superb play this season has defused a potentially sticky situation involving Green, the 10-year veteran who split playing time with Stockton in the previous two seasons. Green, says Stockton, has always been helpful and accommodating (they have lockered next to each other at the Salt Palace since Stockton's rookie season), but that does not mean Green is happy that he has gotten limited minutes (about 14 per game) since Layden made Stockton the starter in the fourth game of this season. In order to make Green more comfortable in a strictly reserve role, Jazz management extended his contract through next year, but it is by no means certain that Green will be wearing a Utah uniform in 1988-89.

"It's obvious that the tide has turned here and John has emerged," says Green. "But I can't hardly complain with the way John has played. He's done the job." Says Layden: "The change is so justifiable, there's nothing anybody can say."

The superlatives apply to Stockton's defense as well. Take steals. Some players get a lot of them but still hurt their defense by gambling and missing steals in the open court, which leads to easy scores. "John used to be out there chasing guys around, but he's learned that players like Cheeks rarely pick off someone in the open court," says Jazz assistant Jerry Sloan, considered one of the NBA's best alltime backcourt defenders. "They get their steals by using their hands when they're in traffic, by doubling down on big men, or by playing the passing lanes."

Articulate and open on most subjects, Stockton can only stammer and shake his head when he's asked about his gaudy stats. He expected to have a good season—after all, he finished tied for seventh in assists and eighth in steals in 1986-87 even though he came off the bench for Green—but no one anticipated that he would beat out Magic, the NBA's assist leader in four of the last five seasons, or better his career field-goal percentage of .488 by almost 100 points.

Says Stockton: "I didn't want to get caught up in the mind-set that 'Wait a minute, I'm ahead of Magic. I better slow down.' " So, quite simply, he never did, and because of that, at week's end the Jazz were 43-35 and headed for the playoffs.

Except for the telecasts of Utah Jazz games pulled in by a satellite dish, and the Jazz mugs that materialize during those telecasts, there is nothing to indicate a blood connection between pro basketball and Jack & Dan's, a friendly place where the neighborhood clientele can drink a beer, shoot pool and sample Jack Stockton's homemade chili or clam chowder. No plaques, no trophies, no ribbons, no pennants, no jerseys, no action photos of John Stockton adorn the walls. Paneling adorns the walls.

"Every year I grab one of those posters of John and tack it up, and every year Jack takes it right down," says Dan Crowley, Jack Stockton's partner for 26 years. Says Jack: "It's an unspoken agreement between us. John would be terribly embarrassed about it, and so would I."

If a Hollywood studio needed a location for a film about a close-knit Irish family—Moonstruck with shamrocks and green beer, perhaps—it could do worse than to choose the neighborhood where Jack and Clemy (short for Clementine) Stockton settled down 26 years ago. The neighborhood is known locally as the "Little Vatican," both for its preponderance of Roman Catholics and for the unusually high number of its young boys who have become priests. Crosby grew up in the neighborhood—his boyhood home is now the Gonzaga alumni house—and Jack Stockton says there's little doubt that Bing drew the inspiration for the priests he portrayed in Going My Way and The Bells of St. Mary's from the neighborhood Jesuits.

The Stocktons were loyal churchgoers, but the priesthood was never in the cards for the two sons, who were otherwise engaged, knocking over fences in the front yard during ferociously contested sibling showdowns. Steve, four years older than John, is only 5'9", but he was a fine basketball player and an outstanding high school baseball pitcher. In his senior year at Gonzaga Prep, he struck out a North Central High School sophomore named Ryne Sandberg three times in one game. John credits his competitiveness to his adolescent, and postadolescent, battles with Steve. Over at Gonzaga, the Stocktons have been known as Cain and Abel since they squared off a few years ago during a pickup game.



John was blessed with more size than Steve, but it took him a while to grow into his body. As a high school freshman he stood only 5'5" and weighed 90 pounds, yet he had the same size-11½ feet and huge hands (set palm against palm, they are nearly as big as 6'10" teammate Marc Iavaroni's) he has today. By the time he graduated from Gonzaga Prep, he was 6 feet, but he still looked as if he were 14 years old.

"Don't think that didn't scare some recruiters away," says Fitzgerald. "George Raveling [then the coach at Washington State] didn't come after John and later admitted it was the biggest recruiting mistake he ever made." Fitzgerald had an advantage—he saw Stockton's fire and competitiveness up close.

Each season at Gonzaga, Stockton got a little better, climbing another rung on the ladder, and as a senior he led the West Coast Athletic Conference in scoring, assists and steals. Stockton fared well in the postseason meat markets held for the benefit of the pro scouts, too, and by the time Knight's '84 Olympic squad was pared to 20, nobody was surprised that the Gonzo point guard from Gonzaga was still around, explaining to reporters from all over the country how the second syllable is pronounced. He, Charles Barkley and Terry Porter were among the late cuts, but it didn't matter as far as many of the pro scouts were concerned—John Stockton was a genuine first-rounder. Immediately after Utah made him the 16th pick, Jazz broadcaster Hot Rod Hundley got him on a conference call at the Salt Palace.

"Is everyone booing?" Stockton asked Hundley.

"No, they're not saying, 'Boo,' " said Hundley. "They're saying, 'Who?' "

Stockton always had considerable athletic talent, coming as he does from a good gene pool. Before Gonzaga abandoned football, John's paternal grandfather, Houston Stockton, played football there under Gus Dorais, the former Notre Dame quarterback who popularized the forward pass; Houston is still recognized as Gonzaga's best player. John has tremendous quickness, a quality without which he simply would not have made it as a pro, as well as superb natural endurance—he once ran an eight-mile race in about 42 minutes without training. His peripheral vision and his hands—"Cousy-sized hands," says Hundley—are ideal for a point guard.

Finally, and not insignificantly, he has the temperament of a world-class athlete. "He may look like an altar boy, but there's a lot of street in that kid," says his father. Stockton's control of the Jazz offense is every bit as absolute as Magic's control of the Laker offense, though not as outwardly emotive. Stockton doesn't hesitate to wave Malone away when the Mailman doesn't have a secure enough postup position, and Stockton's Irish eyes are not smiling when, say, an overweight Mel Turpin fails to move his considerable bulk to a more advantageous scoring position.

"John is very, very competitive," says Dallas's Derek Harper. "From the first moment he came into the league, he wanted to belong, and he thought he did belong. With that kind of attitude, I'm not surprised he's done what he's done."

It's not surprising that he does what he does in the summer, either. He and his wife, Nada, also a Gonzaga grad (and, incidentally, the daughter of Mike Stepovich, the last territorial governor of Alaska), return to Spokane. Three years ago they bought the property on North Superior right next door to his parents, and Stockton spends much of his free time fixing up the house. Fitzgerald remembers driving by one day last summer and seeing Stockton hanging from the roof, applying siding. "Bet the Jazz would love that," he thought.

When he is not up on the roof or grabbing a beer and sandwich at Jack & Dan's, Stockton can probably be found at the Gonzaga gym, working on his game. And one has to wonder: To what end? Isn't it possible that he reached his limit this season? After all, even allowing for Isiah Thomas's occasional flights of brilliant fancy, the only NBA point guard who truly controls a game is Magic, who is a full eight inches taller than Stockton.



"The key word is 'control,' " says Stockton. "I have to get to the point where I can do it like Magic does. That means penetrating, scoring more, taking over on offense once in a while, increasing my range on the outside shot to open things up for the drive. I'm considering this season a beginning. There are a number of things I'm going to work on this summer."

If those workouts pay off he could find himself becoming a Western Conference All-Star next season. Lord knows, that's a lot more likely than making the wall at Jack & Dan's.

(from Dean Oliver's site, material circa 1988)

Introduction to Player Comments
Rating players is quite a bit more difficult than rating offenses or defenses. With offenses and defenses, it's possible to define certain goals independent of the teams involved. An offense wants to score as many points as possible before going on defense. A defense wants to get the ball without giving up points.

With players, there are no such universal goals. Players have roles to play so that the team offense can do its job well. Point guards generally have to deliver the ball to the best scorers and have to hit the open shot. Shooting guards (or off guards, as you like) normally have to get open for good long range shots or be able to create their own shot, also needing the ability to lead the break or to have some ability to distribute the ball. The job of small forwards is to score from inside or medium range, getting some rebounds as well. The power forward position has developed into one with the roles of getting lots of rebounds and scoring some points (probably 15 points per game). Traditionally, the center should be a good rebounder, a good back-to-the-basket scorer, a good defender, and a good passer when double-teamed.

The evolution of NBA Basketball has twisted some of these roles from what they formerly were. The players now commonly referred to as the best are ones who can score very well, rebound well, and pass well. Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Charles Barkley, Clyde Drexler, Fat Lever, and Alvin Robertson are all examples of the versatile player who is good enough in everything that he's outgrown the expectations of his position.

As players have continued to improve, overall offensive and defensive philosophies have changed. What comprised the best offense ten years ago is not the same now. Point guards weren't widely accepted then as being good for offenses. One player whose main job was to pass the ball wasn't viewed as very efficient; coaches wanted all their players to be able to pass the ball well and to shoot. Because players' roles have changed and are always changing, it's difficult to say who is best at any one position.

When it came down to rating players by position, I decided on using two methods. One method was to look at team offenses and defenses and to try to identify how much of a part each player had in making the offense and defense good or bad. The other method was to look at how each player performed his expected role and to combine that with how much he did on the side. For example, Fat Lever was nowhere near as good as Magic Johnson, John Stockton, or Terry Porter at spreading the ball around, but his rebounding and defense helped to make up some of the difference. Nate McMillan isn't a great shooter or rebounder, but he does his primary job of delivering the ball to scorers with some of the best in the NBA, giving him a pretty good rating.

Something you'll notice about the ratings right away is that they are not ranked first, second, third, etc., to 23rd. Instead, I've sorted players into classes where each class contains players of roughly equal value. Some may call this a cop out, but, many times, differences between players are so slight that they are disguised by the quality of the personnel surrounding them. Also, players at the same position can be so different that ranking one above another is both unfair and unrealistic.

The formulas for individual floor % and points created that were introduced earlier will be used fairly extensively in the player comments. The applicable formulas are given below for reference.

Scoring possessions= FG - 0.37*FG*Q/R + 0.37*AST + 0.5*FT
Possessions= FGA-(FGA-FG)*OR%+0.37*AST-0.37*FG*Q/R+TO+0.4*FTA
Floor %= Scoring possessions/Possessions
Points created= 2*Scoring possessions
Q= TMAST/TMMIN*5*PLYRMIN - AST
R= TMFG/TMMIN*5*PLYRMIN - AST
OR%= TMOR/(TMFGA-TMFG)

FG= Player's field goals made AST= Player's total assists
FT= Player's free throws made TMAST= Team's total assists
TMMIN= Total minutes played by team (i.e. 19755 in a season)
PLYRMIN= Total minutes played by player (i.e. 2600 in a season)
TMFG= Total field goals made by team
TMOR= Total team offensive rebounds
TMFGA= Total field goals attempted by the team

Point Guards
The role of the point guard is to get the ball to the top scorers or to the open man. The point guard decides what the best option is in attacking a defense and is supposed to execute that option. The point guard should be able to hit an open jump shot or draw the defense on a drive, being able to dish off because he's usually at a disadvantage among taller players. Additional skills that make point guards more valuable are rebounding and, of course, good defense.

First Class
Magic Johnson (Los Angeles Lakers): He's been the leader of some of the best offenses ever seen. He does what a point guard is supposed to do, does it well, and puts on a great show doing it. He also gets the rebounds and plays average defense, which are both aided by his height advantage. Enough facts.

The other day, Magic Johnson was at Pauley Pavilion playing with some other pros and several UCLA players. When he was done, a group of about fifty kids averaging about five years old went up to him for autographs. Magic stood there for 25 minutes signing shirts, shoes, slips of paper and anything else handed to him. He was still sweaty from playing, but he kept smiling and signing until every kid was satisfied. Among the other pros in the building were Kiki Vandeweghe, Reggie Theus, Mike McGee, and John Williams (WASH). An occasional kid would recognize them and ask for an autograph, but there was never a line like there was in front of Magic. Steve Kerr and Pooh Richardson were also there and were never asked for an autograph.

On the court, Magic was the man. Everyone looked to him. When the ball was on one side of the court and Magic was on the other, many eyes were still turned toward Magic. Some people have said that if Magic didn't have Worthy and Scott filling the lanes on the Lakers, he wouldn't be as good a player. On this day, Magic had Steve Kerr, Kenny Fields, Mike McGee, and assorted others filling the lanes. And Magic was still magic.

Magic will always be mentioned in discussions of the Best Player of All Time. But, that really doesn't matter to the kids who got autographs or to the young players he played with. To the kids, Magic is the Best Player of Their Time. To the younger players, Magic is the player they're trying to become.

John Stockton (Utah Jazz): A year ago, Stockton wasn't on anyone's top ten list of point guards. Now, there is no doubt he deserves a spot with the best.

Stockton takes over for Magic (temporarily) as the Point Guard of the Future. No 6'9" point guards have come out of college in the last eight years, so we have to look at a player of a more traditional stature to be the next premier point guard. Stockton's style is different than Magic's because of the height difference, but he is as good a passer as Magic. He might actually be better because he has to find openings where Magic can go over people. Stockton was fourth in the league in field goal percentage, so he hits the open jump shots with the best. He's no asset as a rebounder, but his defense is top notch. Try to watch Stockton's hands for a while and count the number of times they're going to fast for your eyes to follow. Bet it's pretty high.

Stockton's individual floor % of .654 last year is the highest I have ever seen. In '86-87, Magic had a floor % of .628, which is the second best I've found, but is quite a distant second. Stockton broke the old record for assists in a season, set by Isiah Thomas in '84-85, but Thomas' floor % of .593 wasn't nearly as high as Stockton's. It's amazing that Utah's team floor % was only .531 and its adjusted points per game was only 107.1, both lower than league averages. This is true because none of his teammates are particularly efficient scorers, either because they turned the ball over or shot poorly. Mark Eaton's .402 floor % was a big offensive problem. Karl Malone's league leading 325 turnovers weren't helpful either. Can you imagine this guy with the Blazers? Can you say 'dynamite'?

http://www.rawbw.com/~deano/hoopla/pgdr1.html

Utah Jazz

('88 Record: 47-35)

When the Jazz and Lakers met in the playoffs last year, the research I'd done started to show its value.

Before the series started, everyone in L.A. was saying that the Lakers would sweep the Jazz or, at worst, take them in five games. I had just gotten the season NBA stats and calculated offensive and defensive ratings for the teams and found out how good the Jazz defense was. What the stats were telling me was that the Jazz would really push the Lakers, taking them to at least six games. Somehow, I got into a modest argument with a stranger at the supermarket over how the series would go. He insisted that the Lakers would sweep; it took me forever just to get him to concede that the Lakers could lose one game. After the first game in the series, which the Lakers completely dominated, I heard louder than ever, "The Lakers are going to stomp 'em!" When the series went seven games with the Lakers barely coming out on top, the critics were converted to Jazz believers. People were actually calling the Jazz the second best team in the league. My research had been duly tested and did well.

That series was a fun one in L.A. After the first game all the newspaper columnists were wondering if the Jazz was going to roll over and play dead for the Lakers so that Magic and Worthy could rest their aching ailing bodies. The optimism of the columnists was blaringly obvious as they could see little in the way of the Lakers making good on Riley's guarantee to repeat.

I missed most of the second game because I had to go to work - real work, work that pays by the hour. When I got back home, Laker radio man Chick Hearn was saying something he would repeat over and over throughout the series: "Stockton is playing real well tonight! He's outplaying Magic!" The Lakers were behind and they would stay behind for the rest of the night. They put in a few three pointers to stay close, but when the Jazz needed clutch shooting or passing or defense, someone would step up. That someone was usually John Stockton. John Stockton became a star bigger than Jack Nicholson that night. The press was asking, "Who is this guy?" They immediately pulled out his season stats and found that he had out-assisted everyone in history from Oscar Robertson to Kevin Porter to Isiah Thomas to Magic Johnson. The fact that L.A. had just 'discovered' such a bright new star obscured how he was in the way of the great Laker guarantee. As the series progressed, L.A. seemed to fall more in love with the point guard named John who was out-Magicking Magic Johnson. Later on, L.A. Times' columnist Scott Ostler decided that "Stockton is a man desperately in need of a nickname. Nobody this good should be running around being called just plain John."

Game Three was another defensive gem by Utah, frustrating L.A. in their offense in every way possible. Blocked shots, steals off the dribble, steals off the pass, hands in shooters' faces, rotating to double-team leaving only the toughest pass open - the Jazz played man-to-man defense better than many college teams can play zone defense. The Lakers worked about as hard as they ever have on offense to get only 89 points - a losing figure.

In Game Four, the Jazz obviously relaxed. After outplaying the Lakers the last two games, Utah seemed to figure that the home court advantage was going to get them through this one. In Games Two and Three, when a Laker cut to the basket, a defender would switch in front of him to cut off the passing lane, but that switching got passive in Game Four and the Jazz paid for it, giving up their series high of 113 points.

Game Five - Does it get any better? Some quotes:

"Great teams make great games. That was a great game. The Lakers and Jazz are great teams," Laker general manager Jerry West.

"I live for this," Magic Johnson.

"If the Lakers do repeat, they'll look back on Game Five and recognize it as the night the West was won," Laker pregame host, Roy Firestone.

"The best game ever...along with the double-overtime Boston-Phoenix game in 1976," Firestone.

The game was close almost the whole way. With 11:30 left in the game, though, the Lakers had stretched to an 88-78 lead. The Jazz came back without delay, going on a 15-4 run that featured their defense, of course, bringing them to a 93-92 lead. Baskets were traded for while with both teams trying valiantly to break away. Any time it looked good for one team, the other would fight back and make it even. For seven minutes the tension kept building. The Lakers were up by one, 108-107, when the Jazz began working the ball around on offense for their final attack. It ended up in Thurl Bailey's hands on the baseline where he went up and made a medium range jump shot, leaving the game at 109-108 Jazz with twelve seconds to play. Time out Lakers. Everyone knew Magic was going to get the ball. Everyone knew that either he or Kareem was going to take the shot. Every time the Lakers had been in similar situations, the choice had been obvious. This time it looked no different. Magic had the ball at the top, then started to drive. Shoot and draw a foul - that's what was expected. But Magic found Michael Cooper, the same Cooper who struggled shooting all year with a field goal percentage below 40%. Cooper got it at the top of the key for an open jumper. He didn't hesitate. It was his only basket of the night. The Lakers added a free throw after stealing a Jazz inbound pass from Marc Iavaroni to make the final score 111-109.

For the Jazz it was a tough loss, one that they could have cried over and said, "We did everything we could. We're just not good enough. It's over." They definitely didn't take it that way, however. If anything, the Jazz found out how good they could eventually be in that game. They saw that they could push the World Champs on their home court not just once, but twice. They could see themselves as the next champions.

The Jazz promptly went back to the Salt Palace and romped over the Lakers in Game Six as badly as the Lakers have ever been beaten. Some reported that Chick Hearn put the game in the refrigerator (said it was over) the earliest he ever has for the Lakers. Another chapter in the L.A.-Stockton love story was written when Hearn said, "No matter who wins this series, John Stockton's got to be the MVP." A lot of Laker fans just nodded their heads.

By Game Seven, it looked like the adrenaline was running short for the Jazz. The Lakers still had the fear of losing going for them and the Jazz just got tired of the chase. Everyone in L.A. was glad the Lakers won, but they also seemed sad that the Jazz had to be eliminated. That series was fit for The Finals.

The last two years the Jazz have easily had the best defense in the NBA. No one's really been close to them. The main reason for this has obviously been Mark Eaton. Over the last two years, Eaton has had no individual competition for the blocked shot leadership and has actually outblocked the whole Golden State team by 21. There is a lot of defensive talent around Eaton, but without him, it is a vulnerable defense.

The other big reason for the tremendous defensive stats this team has put up is the way it rotates on defense. Pat Riley was complaining throughout the series with the Jazz that they were playing a zone defense, but he rarely got the call. In a sense, the Jazz were playing a zone, but it was a match-up zone, heavy on the match-up, light on the zone. In college, most match-up zones you see are heavy on the zone and defenders can be caught being indecisive on staying with a player cutting through the middle.

The Jazz defense is devised to keep Eaton down low in the key. They don't have much trouble doing that even when Eaton's man plays outside as Eaton can usually take someone else who is playing close to the basket and send a defender out to his former man. The other players fight through picks a lot like in a normal man-to-man, but exceptional quickness keeps them from getting burned too much. The Jazz doesn't have to play that sort of straight man-to-man too long, though, because they double-team or entice dangerous passes by laying off defenders early in a possession. In that way, the Jazz are one of the few teams to force a quick pace with their defense. Rick Pitino's press in New York and, to a limited extent, Denver and the Lakers also can force a quick pace with defense.

After admiring the Jazz defense throughout the Laker series, I began to wonder how good their defense was in comparison to, say, the Boston Celtics of '85-86. Taking it one step farther, I've listed below the top fifteen defenses of the '80's.

The top three teams listed had statistically the best defenses of the decade. In looking at the stats and personnel of each club, I could not say definitively that any one of them was the best, but I concluded that those three were one small step above all the rest.

The second group of teams all had great defenses, but didn't quite match the stats of the top three. Subjectively, I think some in that second group are better than others, but not by enough to worry about or to argue over. Statistically, the Philadelphia team of '83 doesn't belong in there, but that team had three people on the First Team All-Defensive Team and, perhaps more importantly, had its defensive stats diluted somewhat because it won so easily in that season that garbage time came early in their games.

Def. League Rating
Team Rtg. Avg Diff. Lg.Avg. Floor% Play % W/L
NJN'83 97.4 103.2 5.8 .9438 .501 .430 49-33
PHI'81 98.2 103.8 5.6 .9461 .512 .430 62-20
PHO'81 97.6 103.8 6.2 .9403 .505 .431 57-25
SEA'80 99.2 103.5 4.3 .9585 .516 .440 56-26
MIL'82 100.6 105.4 4.8 .9545 .519 .444 55-27
SEA'82 100.6 105.4 4.8 .9545 .528 .451 52-30
NYK'83 98.5 103.2 4.7 .9545 .508 .435 44-38
PHI'83 99.6 103.2 3.6 .9614 .526 .445 65-17
PHO'83 98.4 103.2 4.8 .9535 .512 .434 53-29
WAS'83 97.7 103.2 5.5 .9438 .514 .441 42-40
NYK'84 101.5 106.0 4.5 .9575 .514 .445 47-35
BOS'86 100.9 105.6 4.7 .9555 .519 .450 67-15
MIL'86 101.0 105.6 4.6 .9564 .514 .438 57-25
UTA'87 101.9 106.5 4.6 .9568 .522 .440 44-38
UTA'88 101.6 106.2 4.6 .9567 .520 .438 47-35

Something to notice about this list is that only two of these teams won the Championship - the '86 Celtics and the '83 Sixers. Of the thirteen remaining teams, only one (Washington '83) did not make it to the playoffs. The other twelve teams had only limited success in the playoffs as none made it to the Finals and nine of the twelve lost to good, though not great offensive teams. Though I haven't checked, I'm fairly sure that a similar list of the best offenses would have a few more champions among them, hinting that a good offense is more important than a good defense in for a title. Unfortunately, such a list would not mean much because the Lakers would make up a good part of it. Eventually, I'll extend the lists farther back in history and perhaps we'll learn something from them.

What does this all mean for the Utah Jazz next year? Not much. All it shows me is that they have one hell of a defense. It doesn't say anything about their chances in the future. If the Jazz has an opportunity to give up a little defense to get some more offense, they obviously should. Getting rid of a no-offense center like Eaton would be giving up a lot of defense and they'd have to get a lot more offense in return to break even. A lineup of Stockton, Eaton, Karl Malone, Thurl Bailey, and a good offensive off guard would probably make this a championship team. Where that off guard is going to come from is a mystery right now. Bob Hansen doesn't look like he'll ever be a scorer. Darrell Griffith has been injured so much and really hasn't shot well since '85. The Jazz will have to get lucky in the draft or pull off a Dale Ellis-for-Al Wood-like trade to get that shooting guard. I just don't see it happening. This team should win 50 to 53 games next year, but its lack of both a bench and a fourth scorer will hurt again in the playoffs.

http://www.rawbw.com/~deano/hoopla/

Stockton ties record:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_lE70C21ZA[/youtube]

Game 5, final quarter:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iWweaxB61k&feature=watch_response[/youtube]

Stockton has a very strong case for this year. Perhaps stronger than Karl (though Malone is very impressive in that latter video, whether it be in his scoring, post up, passing or post defensive ability). Very underrated in general. Highly underrated peak value.

We'll see.

[kaima]

Just as an aside

Avg PPG 1988: 108.2
Avg PPG 2010: 100.4

Every team but two would have ranked top 5 in ppg this year.

Pace versus ease from the perimeter, I'd say it was still more difficult to score back then than now. Quite a bit.

Watching Celtics/Hawks game 7. The physicality in this game would never be allowed today, and the Hawks certainly weren't the Pistons.

Clone Gary Payton. Let's say he's peak value, now. I don't know if he'd still be GP, just because of the way the game is reffed on the defensive side.

The flow, and symmetry, in my estimation was better in in the 80s/90s than it is today. The game has been manipulated into something softer.

[kaima]

Final Vote:

Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Hakeem Olajuwon
Dominique Wilkins

Super-Honorable Mention: Karl Malone

Honorable Mention: Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Isiah Thomas

I honestly don't know if my choice at five is correct. It looks weird to me.

I question Dominique on facilitation/play-making/passing and, from that, not only shot creation, but high-impact scoring position for teammates.

Nobody's suggesting that Dominique's top three, I know, but looking at the top three guys, where does the separation occur? In my estimation, facilitation ability, though I'd concede that Jordan was still learning.

But Magic and Larry? Masters. Positionally, look at what Bird's doing on assists -- then consider how much more he does that isn't picked up statistically, as far as aiding teammates -- as opposed to Dominique.

Wilkins is at 2.9 assists versus 2.8 TOs, for an A/TO ratio of 1.03. Larry dished 6.1 versus 2.8, an A/TO of 2.2.

In the playoffs, Bird's assists were at 6.8, his TOs at 2.9; A/TO 2.36. Dominique had 2.8 V 2.5, for an A/TO ratio of 1.1.

(Magic? Battling with Stockton. Stock was at 13.8 assist versus 3.2 TOs, an A/TO ratio of 4.3; in the playoffs, Stockton put up 14.8 and gave up 4.36, an A/TO ratio of 3.4. Magic was at 11.9 versus 3.7, an A/TO of 3.21; in the playoffs, Magic came in at 12.6 and 3.45, an A/TO ratio of 3.65)

Compared to Olajuwon from this period? Impressive. Same thing with Dominique V Karl; from the standpoint of direct, one to one accuracy, Dominique was better than the two best post-players, who were still improving in this area.

But what does that mean? Should we compare his ability to those slugging it out down low or roaming creators like Bird? In either context, the broad scope does not leave us with a compliment.

Further, post-players inherently create more shots, when dominant, through means of stationary presence, while perimeter guys do this through movement all over the floor. With the latter, considering angles, more is required in the realm of court vision and passing ability.

Does Dominique pass the test?

[semi-sentient]

Jordan and Magic would be tied for POY if it weren't for the 2 Bird votes at #2 sabotaging the rankings.

[JordansBulls]

Jordan and Magic would be tied for POY if it weren't for the 2 Bird votes at #2 sabotaging the rankings.

Also gotta consider Bird lost with HCA that year as well.

[An Unbiased Fan]

1) MJ
2) Magic
3) Bird
4) Barkley
5) Nique

[semi-sentient]

Jordan and Magic would be tied for POY if it weren't for the 2 Bird votes at #2 sabotaging the rankings.

Also gotta consider Bird lost with HCA that year as well.

Not only that, but his numbers fell off big time in the playoffs. That can't be overlooked, yet apparently it has been by a couple of voters.

Code: Select all

           GP   PTS    TS%    REB    AST    STL    BLK    TOV    PER
=====================================================================
Larry RS:  76   29.9   .608    9.3    6.1   1.6    0.8    2.8    27.8
Magic RS:  72   19.6   .581    6.2   11.9   1.6    0.2    3.7    23.1

Larry PS:  17   24.5   .538    8.8    6.8   2.1    0.7    2.9    20.2
Magic PS:  24   19.9   .600    5.4   12.6   1.4    0.2    3.5    22.9

I don't see any kind of advantage for Bird outside of him having a better PER in the RS. His team won 5 less games in a weaker conference, and he played poorly against the same team that Magic played well against in winning a championship.

[kaima]

1) Mike
2) Larry
3) Magic
4) Stockton
5) Dominique

Jordan's diversity is highly underrated. You look at his longevity, people always mention the time off, but not enough consider just how highly skilled he was, and in how many ways. Amazing season. Easy choice.

The argument for Magic versus Bird, to Johnson's side, would often be playmaking ability; the raw numbers and the eagle-eye. But I don't think Magic was consistently great in the playoffs, nor a better playmaker than the neophyte Stockton. Also was outplayed by Stockton in the LAL/UTA series.

Bird was still fairly close to the three-time MVP standard he set, and impressed in a matchup context with that epic duel against Dominique. Magic won the title, the Lakers struggled throughout and he did as well in at least one key series.

Worthy won Finals MVP; could be a statement as to Magic making teammates better, but the most memorable 'big' games from those Finals arguably involve other players, in Worthy and Isiah. Another rival doing big things against Magic.

Bird was still sticking it to his rivals, while Magic wasn't even the best PG at times in the 88 playoffs.

Stockton was amazing. First year starting, shoots nearly 58% (think about that), averages almost 14 assists (new all-time record, that only he will break) a game on a ridiculous A/TO ratio, with 3 steals per. Blows up in the playoffs, arguably the best player in the Lakers/Jazz series overall, while going up against, possibly, the game's greatest player and playmaker, showing his own ability on angles, dribble-penetration and pace-control is already at a super-elite, even league-best, level. Ties Magic's playoff assist record.

You tell me this wasn't a superstar player and I say that you haven't really watched him, or looked at his numbers in this period and/or historically; first year starting, setting records in both the regular season and playoffs on a huge skillset/stat-value. And even still, a lot more than the stats show. Very special player.

Dominique edges players that were, probably, already better. Great one-man show, but can he create for others in a manner that carries enough depth?

There's an interesting contradiction in that, because if followed through to conclusion, that then means that Dominique was showing a very great individuated will/skill in getting the Hawks as far as he did; not making his teammates better like the guys above him, yet pushing his team, as the team in large measure, to a near-CF berth. The criticism stands, holds him back, but also reflects back as a bizarrely-positive backhanded compliment.

Feel like I'm being swayed too much on Dominique's slight edge in team success, even as he wasn't that great at creating on a superior basis for those on his team; interesting contradiction, and hard to crack to one side of the argument. Don't feel fully comfortable in the pick, think the top 4 were more elite as far as superstar presence beyond numbers. Feel that this is certainly arguable for guys I didn't rank. Just a difficult pick.

Think I might be grifting Akeem, Malone and Charles here. Might look at it some more. But...this is my vote, unless otherwise stated.

[ElGee]

I haven't had much time for comment but it should be noted that the Celtics wore down heavily in 88. By G6 v Detroit, Ainge and DJ had injured backs and Parish left the game with a knee injury. To quote SI:

The starters carried the load throughout the regular season and then increased it in the playoffs, when they logged an astounding 83.6% of the playing time. By comparison, Detroit's first-teamers had played 67.2% of the playoff minutes through last weekend.

That Celtic team had no bench. McHale, post broken foot, missed 18 games. Parish and Johnson clearly on the decline, had down seasons. Yet there was Bird, shouldering more scoring to make up for this. He was 4-17 against Detroit in the final game of the series, but he didn't exactly have much help by that point. Just something to consider for those who consider his tough go against the Pistons in 88 something emblematic of an overall playoff struggle.

And yet, despite all this, a 6 SRS and 2 games from the NBA FInals...I tend to agree that Bird seems to be overlooked this year.

[semi-sentient]

Great... I can already foresee people using McHale's broken foot as a way to boost Bird in 1986-87.

I really don't see how Bird is being overlooked here. He's gotten 3 2nd place votes so far (over a guy who was great in the playoffs, and led his team to the best RS record and a championship) and practically everyone else has him 3rd.

[Gongxi]

I don't really think he's being 'overlooked' either, although I'm of the camp Bird and Magic could really go either way this year and Magic is blowing him out of the water. But I don't see Bird at #2 'sabotaging' things either.

[CellarDoor]

^A combination of Worthy's performance and Bird's entire team going down seemingly gives him a nudge here for me I think.

Michael
Bird
Magic
Barkley

I'm not confident with anyone at the 5 slot here, so I'm going with my gut:
John Stockton.

[sp6r=underrated]

Time to Vote

Three players distinguished themselves during the RS as being head and shoulders above the rest: Michael, Magic, and Larry. With all due respect to Bird his stink bomb against Detroit eliminates him from competition, especially when Magic had his way with the Pistons throughout.

In comparison to Jordan, I think Magic's game (as with most but not all great playmakers) isn't captured fully on paper. Overall, though I feel Jordan has a an edge

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Larry

4. Nique
5. Stockton

HM
Barkley, Malone

[ElGee]

I don't really think he's being 'overlooked' either, although I'm of the camp Bird and Magic could really go either way this year and Magic is blowing him out of the water. But I don't see Bird at #2 'sabotaging' things either.

That is all I was referencing. First 5 pages felt like people weren't considering Magic/Larry close. Someone else mentioned him being undervalued and I was echoing that sentiment (think that person then put him at No. 2). I see them as extremely close.

[ElGee]

My 1988 POY Ballot:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Larry Bird
3. Magic Johnson
4. Charles Barkley
5. Hakeem Olajuwon

Michael Jordan. Blah blah blah. Make it end.

I've waffled on Magic and Bird, read as much as I could, watched old games, even re-watched the classic Back to Back doc on the Laker team. Basically it boiled down to Magic not having a great enough playoffs to overcome the regular season difference, in which I think Bird was clearly ahead.

Barkley takes the next spot with his typical stuff -- quick note on those docking Charles because of the team element. Philadelphia's SRS was about ~1.5 point below Houston's, it's just those 10 other teams in the East were tougher sledding than the 11 in the West. The fifth spot was up for grabs and Hakeem takes it over Karl Malone, boosted by defense and his crazy effort against Dallas.