Retro POY '86-87 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 best player seasons of '86-87. Some pointers:

-Change in schedule. We will now operate by splitting the week into thirds: Mon-Wed, Wed-Fri, Fri-Mon. I will label each thread with it's deadline.

-The voting panel is not officially closed. However, if you'd like to be a part of it, contact me - more dedicated, knowledgeable voters will always be wanted.

-This includes both regular and post-season. You should be weighing both in to some degree, and should not be ranking one star over another just because of how far each got in the playoffs.

-Vote sincerely. Do not move a player down in your voting to give another player an advantage. I would encourage every voter to give some explanations while they do their voting - but particularly if you have a top 5 that deviates strongly with the norm and you haven't expressed your thoughts on it earlier in the thread. If I'm not satisfied, I may ask you for more of an explanation - and it may come to actually booting people out of the project.

Some things to start us off:

Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1987.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1987.html
Award Voting http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... _1987.html

Topics for '86-87

-Lakers vs Celtics again
-Lakers focus more on Magic
-Jordan returns, with a vengeance, wrath of Kahn

[Gongxi]

Same big three as 87-88, this year I'd go Magic, Jordan, Bird, but you might be able to rank them in any order. Magic sits at #1 for me, Jordan has a small argument and Bird suffers what Chuck suffered in 89 (I think?) wherein he had a fantastic, #1-worthy year, but just doesn't add up when it's all said and done.

[semi-sentient]

1986-87 Candidates

Regular Season

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Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Magic    80  36.3  23.9  .602   6.3  12.2  1.7  0.5  3.8  15.9  27.0
Bird     74  40.6  28.1  .612   9.2   7.6  1.8  0.9  3.2  15.2  26.4
Jordan   82  40.0  37.1  .562   5.2   4.6  2.9  1.5  3.3  16.9  29.8
McHale   77  39.7  26.1  .655   9.9   2.6  0.5  2.2  2.6  14.8  24.0
Hakeem   75  36.8  23.4  .554  11.4   2.9  1.9  3.4  3.0  10.9  23.8
Barkley  68  40.3  23.0  .660  14.6   4.9  1.8  1.5  4.7  12.0  25.1
Nique    79  37.6  29.0  .543   6.3   3.3  1.5  0.6  2.7  12.2  23.5

Post Season

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Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Magic    18  37.0  21.8  .607   7.7  12.2  1.7  0.4  2.8  3.7   26.2
Bird     23  44.1  27.0  .577  10.0   7.2  1.2  0.8  3.1  3.2   21.8
Jordan   3   42.7  35.7  .529   7.0   6.0  2.0  2.3  2.3  0.4   28.1
McHale   21  39.4  21.1  .628   9.2   1.9  0.3  1.4  2.6  2.1   17.9
Hakeem   10  38.9  29.9  .659  11.3   2.5  1.3  4.3  3.6  2.0   28.5
Barkley  5   42.0  24.6  .649  12.6   2.4  0.8  1.6  4.4  0.7   20.2
Nique    9   40.0  26.8  .497   7.8   2.8  1.8  0.9  2.9  0.7   18.8

Awards Recognition

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Player      MVP     DPOY   All-NBA   All-Defense
================================================
Magic       1       -      1st       ---
Jordan      2       8      1st       ---
Bird        3       -      1st       ---
McHale      4       5      1st       1st
Hakeem      7       -      1st       1st
Barkley     6       -      2nd       ---
Nique       5       -      2nd       ---

Early Rankings

1. Magic Johnson - This was statistically his best season, and once again he was brilliant in both the RS and PS. Lead the Lakers to not only the best regular season (by far), but also ran the highest rated offense EVER (this years Suns were 2nd, BTW). Regular season and NBA Finals MVP puts a stamp on a great overall season. As a side note, this is the year I gave my loyalties to the Lakers for good.
   
   
2. Larry Bird - Bird came up short in the Finals against Magic (was handily out-played), but he was still very good overall. I might be convinced to swap him and MJ, but I'll need to hear a few more arguments first.
   
   
3. Michael Jordan - MVP runner-up and great comeback season, but unfortunately had to go up against the Bird/McHale led Celtics so was swept out of the 1st round. It's worth noting that Jordan didn't make the All-Defensive team, which makes his DPOY selection in 87-88 even more suspect.
   
   
4. Hakeem Olajuwon - The only other player to receive All-NBA and All-Defensive 1st team honors, and overall the best post-season performer.
   
   
5. Kevin McHale - Spectacular season which ended on a sour when he suffered a broken foot late in the RS. Still, he was just behind Bird in MVP rankings and is the only player outside of Hakeem who made the All-NBA AND All-Defensive 1st teams. Despite his foot issues, he did still play very well in the PS, and particularly the Finals.

[Gongxi]

Or maybe Jordan's DPOY makes his absence on the All-D team the year prior suspect? It's not uncommon for third year players (who are actually playing only their second full season, due to injury), to get overlooked in such voting, don't you think?

It becomes especially suspect when you realize he became the first guard to ever record over 200 steals and 100 blocks that year.

[semi-sentient]

That's true. While I don't think he deserved his DPOY at all, he also didn't deserve to get left off the All-Defensive team either. What I find odd is really how the perception can change so dramatically from one year to the next. It's not like Jordan's defense changed all that much, although the Bulls did go from 11th to 3rd in dRtg.

[JordansBulls]

1. Magic Johnson - Won League and Finals MVP, was 1st in Win Shares PER 48 minutes in the season, and 2nd in season PER, NBA 1st Team. Finished 1st in Playoff Win Shares and Playoff WS per 48 minute and 2nd in Playoff PER.

Should be unanimous IMO


2. M.Jordan - Finished 2nd in MVP voting, Led in Win Shares on the season and was 2nd in WS per 48 minutes, Led in Season PER. Led the league in scoring in the season and put up over 3000 points in the process. All NBA 1st Team


3. Larry Bird - Finished 3rd in MVP voting, 3rd in Win Shares in the season, 3rd in PER in the season and 3rd in WS Per 48 in the season. Finished 2nd in Playoff Win Shares


4. Hakeem Olajuwon - Finished 7th in MVP voting, Finished 1st in Playoff PER, All NBA 1st Team and 1st Team Defense.


5. Kevin Mchale - Finished 4th in MVP voting, 4th in Win Shares, and 5th in PER, and 4th in WS per 48 minutes, All NBA 1st Team


HM: Dominique Wilkins, Barkley, Isiah

[semi-sentient]

Here's a comparison of Magic/Bird's number in the NBA Finals:

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MJ: 26.2 PTS (.590 TS%),  8.0 REB, 13.0 AST, 2.3 STL, 0.3 BLK, 2.2 TOV
LB: 24.2 PTS (.534 TS%), 10.0 REB,  5.5 AST, 1.2 STL, 1.2 BLK, 3.0 TOV

... and of course, lest we forget Magic's self-proclaimed "junior, junior, junior sky-hook" that won Game 4 in Boston.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Magic is the clear #1. I see a classic Jordan vs Bird battle for the next 2 spots. After that, it's pretty open.

[Dr Positivity]

1. Magic - His most impressive season IMO. His peak statistically in both the RS and postseason, MVP, led a 65-17 team that rolled through the playoffs under the Finals where he outplayed Bird, culminating in Game 4 where Magic hit his shot and Bird didn't giving Magic the clear edge in my mind.

2. Bird - 29/9/8 .60 TS%, pulled that Celtics team to the finals with McHale's injury. Great year and if he hits that shot who knows how that series goes.

3. Jordan - Crazy year. But very young, not nearly as efficient as he'd be the next handful of years, and a 38% USG is not my cup of tea. It ranks 2nd all time to Kobe's 06 and was miles ahead of anyone else that year - Dominique was 2nd with 32%.

4. Dominique - Not the best playoff stats (I'd be interesting in his invidual game logs), but otherwise one of this best seasons. His normal 29/6/3 self and the Hawks won 57 games with a 7+ SRS with decent, not great support. I'm willing to forgive his assumingly bad shooting against the Pistons, because when you have a 1 volume star offense going against a d as good as the Pistons, having a tough time FG% is expected

5. Hakeem - 23/12/3 with elite d, Rockets make the 2nd round in a depressing year, Hakeem's playoff stats are very good. 42 wins is a bit weak, Sampson was injured of course but still played half the year at a 15/9 pace... overall I'm more impressed with what Dominique accomplished on his team.

Left McHale and Barkley off due to injuries. McHale had a top 5 worthy RS but I weigh playoff injuries heavily. When I 'pick' a guy I need him to be at that level in the playoffs or else his value is lessened.

Barkley played 68 games and started 62 indicating he was probably hobbled for 6. Highest rebounding and assists numbers of his career, but also TOs at a ridiculous 4.7/game. His missed GP hurt the Sixers because they had a pretty good squad that year with Cheeks, Erving, Toney still on the team and they still won 45 despite those guys playing 68, 60, and 52 games that year, along with Barkley's 68. I think if everyone was healthy that's a 53 win+ team if not high 50s. As it stood they pulled a really good Milwaukee team (who also dealt with injuries and were prob. better than their record) in the 1st round and went down in 5 in a really close series.

[semi-sentient]

Regarding McHale, he still performed very well under the circumstances. The only area where his play dropped off noticeably was on the defensive end, IIRC.

Here are his stats, which don't quite capture his defensive issues, but still worth noting:

20.5 PTS (.637 TS%), 9.0 REB, 2.0 AST, 0.2 STL, 0.8 BLK, 2.5 TOV

Dominque was nice and all, but .497 TS% in the PS? That straight up sucks. At least McHale had an excuse for his stats falling off, and even then he was still a very efficient scorer.

[Dr Positivity]

The defensive pressure variable plays into Dominique and McHale's efficiency numbers though. To me a healthy Dominique is clearly a better player than McHale with a broken foot. But I'll try to look up some evidence to see whether Nique simply played below his standards or faced insane defensive pressure and took it upon himself to try and carry the team anyways

[semi-sentient]

Yeah, I'd be curious to see what both players did against the Pistons since that's a common opponent.

[mysticbb]

Without looking at anything so far, I would say:

1st tier: Magic

2nd tier: Bird/Jordan

3rd tier: Olajuwon/Wilkins/Moses Malone/Barkley (probably McHale or Isiah Thomas)

[ronnymac2]

Double L...no, no....Triple LOL at Mchale's name being mentioned with the top five players in the league. Triple. Three. Tres.


Seriously though.....this guy is Larry Bird's second option, with two of the best 3-point shooters of his era spreading the floor for him in Bird and Ainge, with two unselfish combo guards delivering him the ball in DJ and Ainge (not to mention Bird), and with Robert Parish spreading the floor with his elite mid-range jumper. Somehow....someway....for some reason....his passing still sucks despite all those options available to him. He's merely a decent rebounder who at best is a co-anchor of a defense, not a legit defensive anchor. Then he breaks his foot in the playoffs and his defense declines.

And this is a top five player?



Pretty sure Magic/Bird/Jordan will be my top three. Haven't looked at anything else yet.

[sp6r=underrated]

IMO it has to be Magic, Larry, and Mike top 3 this year.

Does anyone have a case against that?

[Sedale Threatt]

1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Bird
4. Olajuwon
5. McHale

[shawngoat23]

I'm going to take some more time to look at this closely, but one thing I should say up front is that I have a strong bias: I hate chuckers.

Whether it's a scrub like Slava Medvedenko, a borderline All-Star like Monta Ellis or Zach Randolph, a HOF-caliber player like Allen Iverson or Kobe Bryant (2006), or even a GOAT-level talent like Wilt Chamberlain (1962). Even my favorite player, Michael Jordan, isn't exempt from this bias in 1987. I'm not that impressed.

[ronnymac2]

No, but you're a good player: Kareem, English, Lever, King (6 games played), Dantley.

We're saying good-bye to Doctor J, and saying hello to Karl Malone. Malone put up 22/10 in his second year in the league, becoming a star using a great work ethic. He had a fantastic career which he should be proud of. I've learned just how special his longevity was in this project. He won't be in contention this year, but he still was a very good player.

Drexler, Nique, Barkley, Moses, and Isiah are in the discussion for the fifth spot. I'm sorry, but Kevin Mchale isn't on the level of these guys.

Magic and Bird are in a tier of their own. Jordan was merely a super-scorer/super-athlete who could fly/do anything. Jordan still had more to learn. He had to improve his defense and passing some more. Relative to his own later self, he was raw.

I'm thinking about Hakeem vs. Jordan right now. I don't think it is crazy to put Hakeem ahead of Jordan here. I'll go into why later.

[JordansBulls]

No, but you're a good player: Kareem, English, Lever, King (6 games played), Dantley.

We're saying good-bye to Doctor J, and saying hello to Karl Malone. Malone put up 22/10 in his second year in the league, becoming a star using a great work ethic. He had a fantastic career which he should be proud of. I've learned just how special his longevity was in this project. He won't be in contention this year, but he still was a very good player.

Drexler, Nique, Barkley, Moses, and Isiah are in the discussion for the fifth spot. I'm sorry, but Kevin Mchale isn't on the level of these guys.

Magic and Bird are in a tier of their own. Jordan was merely a super-scorer/super-athlete who could fly/do anything. Jordan still had more to learn. He had to improve his defense and passing some more. Relative to his own later self, he was raw.

I'm thinking about Hakeem vs. Jordan right now. I don't think it is crazy to put Hakeem ahead of Jordan here. I'll go into why later.

Disagree. Rockets got upset by a team that won 39 games.

[sp6r=underrated]

I'm curious what people felt about McHale 1987 season who followed it as it happened. By recognition and stats it was an outlier year.

Did people at the time during the pre-foot injury period think McHale was really breaking out and becoming a legit franchise player?