No more free pass

[evildallas]

I have not come to praise Marvin Williams, but to bury him.

Last year Josh Smith was praised because he stopped forcing up 3 point tries finally realizing that it wasn't his strong point. What did he shoot from 3 point range the year before this revelation? .299

Last year Marvin Williams should have been an additional threat from deep after supposedly adding range to his shot the year before. What did he shoot from 3 point range? .303

Those figures are damn near identical, but there is no collective uproar about how Marvin needs to stop hoisting up such a low percentage shot. One reason why is we are desperate for him to do anything because he was drafted instead of future franchise players. The other reason is that he has a nice looking shot that should go in more often (but somehow doesn't).

We seem to have no problem attacking Josh for lulls in effort or shot selection, or Joe for not sharing the ball or making decision too slow, or Mike for not being able to stay in front of a chair anymore on defense. Marvin gets away with little real criticism. I've even said that his role in two small to give him a chance to earn his salary. No more. I'm tired of treating him with kid gloves hoping he develops. From now on he is my new public enemy #1. I'm tired of the underachieving. He's a major reason this team hasn't gone further. I either want him shipped out of town for whatever we can get out of him or I want him producing at a new level. By that I mean shooting at least 36% from 3 point range. By that I mean rebounding at a higher rate as he should be longer than most SFs he plays against. By that I mean getting to the line more than 5 times a game (last year was 2.7). And those are my expectations if Joe resigns. If Joe walks I want even more production out of him while he's on the floor. Marvin signed an extension for a lot less than a #2 draft pick normally would. I'm tired of him playing like he wasn't paid for a full effort. It is no longer about who we could have had instead, it's now about him not earning his 7.5M a year contract when he should have the ability.

As of today, Marvin Williams has become my least favorite Hawk until he starts earning my support. That or until the team goes and gets me someone who will play harder instead at that position.

P.S. - Happy belated Birthday Marvin. You better be working to improve your game this summer!

[azuresou1]

So you expect Marvin to shoot 5 FTs a game when the only other person on the team to shoot 5 FTAs/36 were Smoove and Randolph Morris, and their usage rates are 22.2% and 24.1% respectively, compared to Marvin's 15.5? And Josh was the only one who broke 5 FTAs period, playing 5 more minutes than Marvin?

If you look at FTA Per 36/Usage Rate, here's what it looks like:

Randolph Morris 0.323651452
Zaza Pachulia 0.303225806
Josh Smith 0.238738739
Mario West 0.238095238
Marvin Williams 0.2
Al Horford 0.193181818
Othello Hunter 0.188034188
Jamal Crawford 0.178294574
Joe Smith 0.157608696
Jeff Teague 0.130890052
Joe Johnson 0.129277567
Maurice Evans 0.11038961
Mike Bibby 0.080745342
Jason Collins 0.051724138

So yes, Marvin needs to get better and more confident, but it's not fair to knock him about not getting to the line when he does it better than 3 other starters + our 6th man + 8th man + our PG of the future.

[td00]

One man's opinion while watching Marvin the past few years.

He regressed some last year when we needed him to become a higher option. He doesn't like to go inside and battle, which is the reason for his minimal rebounding performances.

I always thought that he and Josh never played well as a unit, and that was while Chills was here. Chills was willing to roam the baseline and go after the ball. Marvin seems to like to stand around the perimeter waiting for a pass.

I have expected, if anything, for Marvin to be a defensive presence. It hasn't happened. He has to be our Lebron stopper, and give Lewis and Pierce fits as well. He rarely gets into foul trouble, so that tells me he doesn't have an aggressive approach to defense.

Where is he ranked on the list of starting forwards in the NBA? Last year he was a 10/5 player getting 30MPG. Career wise, he is 12/5.4. I will say this; while his stats were lower last year, playing 4 less MPG, he has been very consistent in this offense for Woody the last 4 years.
I have been so ready for him to take on a bigger role overall, but it hasn't come together. Is the scheme or is it Marvin being satisifed with the 4th or 5th choice on offense. IMO, he needs to be the 3rd choice with the FT% being around 81%. He gets it done at the line, just not often enough.

I don't see him moving out of the rotation this year, so I wish to see the ball in his hands more often and depend on him to drive to the basket more and get putbacks.

His 6'9"/240 is built for an aggressive game. I want more out of Marvin, starting now under LD. He sure could help should JJ decide against returning.

[theatlfan]

I have not come to praise Marvin Williams, but to bury him.
...
P.S. - Happy belated Birthday Marvin.

One thing about Marvin is that I remember he was pretty good on the "Long 2" FG % toward the beginning of his career, and it was supposedly a matter of him lengthening his range (sorry, a quick search on this stat yielded nothing - it's just going on memory here). His 35.5% in 08-09 was supposed to be a marker of things to come, but you're correct in saying that his performance last year left a LOT to be desired.

I'm excited to see a change in our O though, and I do hope Marvin benefits. It's true that last year our O seem to be basically 1) JJ (Usage: 26.3%), 2) Crawford (25.8%), and 3) Smoove (22.2%). Meanwhile player like Marvin (15.5%) and Horford (17.6%) were left with crumbs. Marvin's Usage % was the lowest in his career and is in the same range of Mike Bibby (16.1%), Zaza (15.5%), and Mo Evans (15.4%). I do hope that LD's commitment to spreading the ball around more means more touches for Marvin and Horford.

But if Marvin doesn't improve his shooting %'s then I'm with you. He's got to go!

[azuresou1]

I'm a fan of the belief that the ball should always go to the open man, and that if you can't create a good shot in 3-4 dribbles or so, you need to pass it to the next most open player. Marvin needs the ball more to be effective.

[MaceCase]

Marvin knew he lost his shot a long time into the season. If you will remember all of his big scoring games after the Houston game were off of him slashing, working out the post, putbacks or FTs not his jumper and definitely not his 3 ball.

Just a reminder from the playoffs
Marvin 3pt FGA: 2
Smoove 3pt FGA: 6

That's part of why people don't get on Marvin for his shot selection as much as Smoove, he gets it that it's not going in and doesn't continue forcing it up. Too often he would actually shy away from taking a wide open jumper and try to drive it in which would lead to a no call or a turnover. Unfortunately, as part of Woody's offense Marvin would be placed in the one corner of the court where he knew he was ineffective from for nearly 18 seconds of each possession before receiving the ball with no other option but to put it up. Yea he has to regain his shooting touch but we've all have seen how effective he can be in aspects outside of just shooting. It's up to Drew to put in an offense that get's our guys in positions they can succeed and it's up to our guys to make sure that they are consistent threats from these positions.

[evildallas]

I came up with the 5 FTA per game figure by looking back at Marvin's stats for the first 4 years. That was his high in year 3, but his previous low was 4.4 per 36 prior to the 3.1 he got last year. If he isn't going to make 3s, he needs to take it to the hole. Doing neither makes him a horrible starter.

[dejaman]

As soon as he signed that extension his passion completely went out the window. It's frustrating to see a number 2 overall pick be content with being the 4th and 5th option.

[evildallas]

So you expect Marvin to shoot 5 FTs a game when the only other person on the team to shoot 5 FTAs/36 were Smoove and Randolph Morris, and their usage rates are 22.2% and 24.1% respectively, compared to Marvin's 15.5? And Josh was the only one who broke 5 FTAs period, playing 5 more minutes than Marvin?

If you look at FTA Per 36/Usage Rate, here's what it looks like:

Randolph Morris 0.323651452
Zaza Pachulia 0.303225806
Josh Smith 0.238738739
Mario West 0.238095238
Marvin Williams 0.2
Al Horford 0.193181818
Othello Hunter 0.188034188
Jamal Crawford 0.178294574
Joe Smith 0.157608696
Jeff Teague 0.130890052
Joe Johnson 0.129277567
Maurice Evans 0.11038961
Mike Bibby 0.080745342
Jason Collins 0.051724138

So yes, Marvin needs to get better and more confident, but it's not fair to knock him about not getting to the line when he does it better than 3 other starters + our 6th man + 8th man + our PG of the future.

While I had never done the research the lack of reaching the line shows the inherent limitations of the offense we had. Defenses really didn't even need to play zone to force us into shooting jump shots. The Hawks just settled for those shots out of habit.

[azuresou1]

I came up with the 5 FTA per game figure by looking back at Marvin's stats for the first 4 years. That was his high in year 3, but his previous low was 4.4 per 36 prior to the 3.1 he got last year. If he isn't going to make 3s, he needs to take it to the hole. Doing neither makes him a horrible starter.

Marvin shot more efficiently than any other starter not named Al Horford. If anything, his FT drawing rate is what's allowing him to be a passable starter. His 11.5 DrawF% is significantly better than Joe Johnson's 6.2% or Bibby's laughable 3.6% Here are the other starting SF DrawF%'s.

Maggette: 20.5
LeBron: 17.7
Pierce: 17.6
Durant: 16.2
Jefferson: 15.8
Melo: 14.5
Hill: 14.5
Iguodala: 13.9
Granger: 13.6
Gay: 12.9
Turkoglu: 12.8
Deng: 12.7
M. Williams: 11.5
Thornton: 11.0
S-Jax: 10.9
Casspi: 10.3
Ariza: 9.8
Artest: 9.8
Butler: 9.7
Batum: 9.2
T-Williams: 8.8
Pietrus: 8.5
Chandler: 8.2
Gomes: 7.6
Marion: 7.4
Prince: 7.1
Delfino: 6.5
Richardson: 5.1
Stojakovic: 4.4
Korver: 4.1

Average: 11.1
Median: 10.6

As you can see, Marvin is slightly above-average in terms of drawing fouls at the SF position, and I agree that he could be more aggressive/assertive, but let's not act like him not drawing enough fouls when he gets attempts is the issue.

[evildallas]

You've made your point that Marvin draws fouls at a reasonable rate when he drives the ball. It's just that he doesn't drive or do anything else often enough with the ball. 5 FTA a game would come from getting more opportunities. My big complaints that led to this rant was his lack of motivation, his lack of development, and that I perceive that he isn't be held to a high enough standard. I've just had enough of laid back Marvin. He was happy as the last option on the team. For 7.5M a year I want more aggressiveness and more skill development.

[azuresou1]

There's only so much you can do when your coach puts you in the corner and you never get the ball.

[evildallas]

There's only so much you can do when your coach puts you in the corner and you never get the ball.

That's the only thing (seeing him with a new coach) that makes me what to give him any chance whatsoever. Even so, I am still pissed to realize that he regressed to a 30% 3 point shooter and it will take a lot to make me forget that interview video on Hawks.com.