General Free Agent Discussion

Post #1 » by **fatlever** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:19 pm

... will end up grossly overpaid, with the team that signed him regretting it in a few years?

my bet is on rudy gay. if a team signs him to a max deal (which is rumored in order to pry him away from memphis), that will be a monumental mistake. gay is a solid player, best suited as a 3rd option type on a really good team. you cant build a team around him. he isnt good enough for that. i dont envy the position memphis is in right now. if they try to keep him they will overpay for him and their team will still be a non-playoff team, but now which a horrible contract. if they let him go for nothing, they set the franchise back. best solution, sign and trade him for some young players and picks.

who are your soon-to-be overpaid FAs?

dmutombo321 · Post #2 » by **dmutombo321** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:53 pm

I agree with Gay being exhibit 1A.

Some others off the top of my head:

David Lee - a good rebounder, decent offensive player who will get paid like a star. As complementary players go, he is elite. But someone is going to pay him franchise player money.

Anthony Morrow - some team intrigued with his youth and unparalleled stroke will probably pay him more than he's worth. He's probably the deadliest shooter int he league but he is one diminsional.

Felton / Tyrus: Lets hope its not us. I'd love to retain both if they can be had for salaries commensurate to their abilities. But, how often does that happen (Okafor, Carroll, trading for Diop's deal, etc)

Post #3 » by **BigSlam** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:31 pm

Felton for sure.

I agree with dm321 when it comes to Morrow. He's looking like the next Korver, Kapono or, dare I say it, Hammer. Someone will probably give him $5mil a year then be kicking themselves in 2 or 3 years time.

Jermaine O'Neal is another one. I think he is done, but I bet some team will fork out a pretty penny for him (like the Knicks for example).

e4Nf6 · Post #4 » by **e4Nf6** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:09 pm

I have a feeling the whoever it is the Knicks will be the victim. If they wiff on Wade/Bosh/Lebron/etc. I don't know if they can come in to next season with nothing to show for 2+ season of tanking. I kind of hope it happens actually. It would be basketball karma to punish them for throwing away 2 season of basketball for nothing but cap space.

doc.end · Post #5 » by **doc.end** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:03 pm

A bit of a good thing is that we have pretty much no cap space. Just deak Falton and thomas with a sense of wisdom and we'll be fine. Correction we could be fine, finger crossed.

Fred Williamson · Post #6 » by **Fred Williamson** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:40 pm

Joe Johnson and David Lee.

JJ isn't worth more than he's getting paid now and Lee does not deserve more than $7million/year

ball teacher · Post #7 » by **ball teacher** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:13 pm

I disagree about Rudy Gay, he's worth every bit of a max player right now. Atheltic Small Forward who can shoot, finish strong, play some defense, he's only about 24 years old, and he had to play beside Zach Randolph and OJ Mayo, yet he still scored around 20 plus a game. I'd say Joe Johnson, Boozer and David Lee are the main players who will be overpaid.

countryboi · Post #8 » by **countryboi** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:45 pm

ball teacher wrote:I disagree about Rudy Gay, he's worth every bit of a max player right now. Atheltic Small Forward who can shoot, finish strong, play some defense, he's only about 24 years old, and he had to play beside Zach Randolph and OJ Mayo, yet he still scored around 20 plus a game. I'd say Joe Johnson, Boozer and David Lee are the main players who will be overpaid.

giving the max to rudy gay would be a huge mistake....you give a max contract to a player that is going to make your team a hell of a lot better.....rudy was just a talented player on a bad team...i dont think he is worth more than the 10 mil crash is making

Post #9 » by **Paydro70** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:01 pm

...Gay is a 16 PER player. I know that doesn't tell you everything, but I venture to say no one should ever even be considered max-worthy unless they're consistently topping 20.

He's about average for an NBA SF, and shouldn't be earning more than 8m a year. He is young, true, but also hasn't shown any improvement the last 3 years.

Lee will get overpaid, so will JJ, but at least they're really good players. It's the Morrows and O'Neals that will end up really hurting your team's ability to advance.

Post #10 » by **fatlever** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:34 pm

gay is a good complimentary wing player, in the same class as granger, caron butler, gerald wallace and stephen jackson, josh howard, luol deng. he doesnt create for others, he doesnt make others better, not a great passer, despite being great athlete he isnt a great defender, not really a leader and hardly marketing stud. why on earth would you throw max money at him? dont make the same mistakes that other teams have made. gay wont lead you anywhere if he is your best player. and how many teams can afford to pay their complimentary players max money? gay should get a deal similar to what wallace is making.

Post #11 » by **fatlever** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:38 pm

shouldnt you at least have to make an all-star team (and preferably, at least 3rd team all NBA at least once) before being considered a max player? how about making the playoffs before getting a max deal? is that too much to ask from a player?

tonman · Post #12 » by **tonman** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:18 am

first off, being a "max" player does not mean you are the franchise player especially with the limits to salaries recently.

second, just look at the bobcats. wallace is the closest thing to a franchise player and yet he, diaw, and chandler making 9M or more with jackson not far behind.

in the reality of the nba, if you have "elite" talent, you have to pay money. i like the term coined earlier "elite" role player for david lee. what role does david lee have? scoring. rebounding. let's see not a shot blocker but avg 1.0 stl per game and 3.6 apg last season. the "versatile" boris diaw avg. 4.0 apg... and only missed 3 games in the last 3 seasons total.

no david lee is not a "franchise" player but he deserves top dollar because he has SHOWN it on the court. chandler avg. 12/12 and got 12M. lee has avg at least 16/12 last two seasons. sure chandler is overpaid but 20/20 hindsight is not an excuse to say chandler shouldn't have gotten that much.

bottom line, i would love to have david lee here in charlotte and thinking 7M would have done it last year??? where would we be instead of chandler/mohammed starting?

with wallace and jackson, lee would be the perfect player at center. add someone better than diaw and the bobcats should continue to make the playoffs for the forseeable future.

tonman · Post #13 » by **tonman** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:24 am

fatlever wrote:shouldnt you at least have to make an all-star team (and preferably, at least 3rd team all NBA at least once) before being considered a max player? how about making the playoffs before getting a max deal? is that too much to ask from a player?

so you're saying we shouldn't have given wallace that contract?

Post #14 » by **BigSlam** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:58 am

tonman wrote:
fatlever wrote:shouldnt you at least have to make an all-star team (and preferably, at least 3rd team all NBA at least once) before being considered a max player? how about making the playoffs before getting a max deal? is that too much to ask from a player?

so you're saying we shouldn't have given wallace that contract?

Crash is earning 9.5 mill a year - far from the max.

Post #15 » by **fatlever** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:18 am

tonman wrote:
fatlever wrote:shouldnt you at least have to make an all-star team (and preferably, at least 3rd team all NBA at least once) before being considered a max player? how about making the playoffs before getting a max deal? is that too much to ask from a player?

so you're saying we shouldn't have given wallace that contract?

wallace is an example of a player getting paid about what he is worth. he is a borderline all-star making a few mil less than max. thats a very fair deal for both sides. there is no way rudy gay is worth several more mil than wallace, especially not in this economic climate. if a team offers him that deal, mark my words, they will regret it.

teams fell into the trap a few years ago of giving any promising young player a max deal. some panned out but way too many ended up falling way short of expectations and crippling their teams financially for a few seasons. hopefully gms have learned from past mistakes. you dont give max money to above average players on bad/average teams. you give max money to the proven superstars and then you build your team from there.

Rich4114 · Post #16 » by **Rich4114** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:39 am

I agree, no way Gay is worth the same amount as say Brandon Roy. Gay should get Gerald Wallace numbers. Really good player, would shine as the 3rd option on a contender. You can't pay a guy like that max though and expect to be a contender.

Post #17 » by **Paydro70** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:00 am

...do some of you guys not realize how much the max is? It's like 15m... the first year, with max raises every year afterward.

Crash is nowhere near that, he's making a very fair salary as a keystone of the #1 D in the league and as an effective offensive player. He's better than Rudy Gay at literally everything at the moment. Granted you have some hope that Gay gets better, but there's no guarantee there.

I don't think every team should even have one max player, let alone two. In my opinion the list of "max" players (discounting, for the moment, the likelihood that the older players decline over the course of a 5 year deal):
LeBron, Kobe, Durant, Nash, Paul, Wade, Howard, Duncan, Dirk, Bosh, D.Williams, Melo, Roy. Beyond that you are paying a guy who is probably not good enough to be the #1 player on a championship roster, unless you build in the rather unconventional manner of the '10 Celtics (not '08... at that point KG was still worth max) or '04 Pistons. In that case, of course, you probably need that salary space to keep your multiple very good players.

tonman · Post #18 » by **tonman** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:34 am

so let me see, max is 15.5. wallace is borderline all-star at 9.5.

wonder what an average nba starting point guard should make? first thought would be what 15.5/2?

okay so the average folks make around the MLE which is 5.8M this year. but this amount would not be offered to felton.

just annoyed at people's perceptions about value of contracts. wallace is making almost TWICE the MLE. y'all are right that "max" is higher but double is still double.

Rich4114 · Post #19 » by **Rich4114** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:52 am

it's all about what other teams are willing to pay. Unfortunately, this also includes Europe (Josh Childress). Someone out there is always willing to overpay, which is why salaries are out of control. The solution is really simple though, make the contracts partly guaranteed like the NFL except rookie deals.

Post #20 » by **Paydro70** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:02 am

Everyone always says that as if they don't know what happens in the NFL... players rotate teams CONSTANTLY because teams can cut without consequence. It makes it very hard to keep up with who's on your team, which isn't as big a deal with a huge football roster but is when it's a 12-man basketball squad. I don't want half the team to turn over every year. This isn't even to mention the problems with holdouts.

Tonman, don't forget that Wallace is making 9.5m several years into an unusual, flat contract. Max contracts are in fact much more onerous because it's 15m, followed by 16.5m, followed by 19m, and so on. They represent much more than double the commitment that a 6m per year deal does.

Felton has only had one season, this one, where he was actually a clearly NBA-average PG. I personally am a little skeptical that it's a smart idea to pay him like one, especially given where this team is in its development.