Retro POY '85-86 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 best player seasons of '85-86. Some pointers:

-Change in schedule. We will now operate by splitting the week into thirds: Mon-Wed, Wed-Fri, Fri-Mon. I will label each thread with it's deadline.

-The voting panel is not officially closed. However, if you'd like to be a part of it, contact me - more dedicated, knowledgeable voters will always be wanted.

-This includes both regular and post-season. You should be weighing both in to some degree, and should not be ranking one star over another just because of how far each got in the playoffs.

-Vote sincerely. Do not move a player down in your voting to give another player an advantage. I would encourage every voter to give some explanations while they do their voting - but particularly if you have a top 5 that deviates strongly with the norm and you haven't expressed your thoughts on it earlier in the thread. If I'm not satisfied, I may ask you for more of an explanation - and it may come to actually booting people out of the project.

Some things to start us off:

Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1986.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1986.html
Award Voting http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... _1986.html

Topics for '85-86

-Bird becomes a legend
-Hakeem arrives
-Nique #2 in MVP voting

[JordansBulls]

Rankings Thus Far.


1. Larry Bird - Won League MVP and Finals MVP, Led the league in Win Shares and Win Shares PER 48 minutes and PER. Led in Win Shares in the playoffs and finished 2nd in Win Shares per 48 minutes and 4th in PER in the playoffs.

2. Hakeem Olajuwon - Finished 4th in MVP voting, Finished 2nd in Playoff Win Shares and 3rd in Playoff Win Shares Per 48 Minutes., Finished 3rd in Season PER.

* The reason why the Rockets upset the Lakers this year and the reason they were able to win 2 games against a top 3-4 team all time.


3. Magic Johnson - Finished 3rd in MVP voting, Finished 3rd in Win Shares and 2nd in Win Shares per 48 minutes in the season and 4th in PER. Finished 4th in Playoff Win Shares and 1st in Win Shares per 48 minutes and 2nd in Playoff Win Shares.


4. Kevin Mchale - Finished 5th in season Win Shares and 4th in Season Win Shares per 48 minutes, Finished 3rd in playoff Win Shares and 5th in Playoff Win Shares per 48 minutes

Was a stud in the Finals

5. Dominique Wilkins - Finished 2nd in MVP voting, 5th in season PER, led the league in PPG, All NBA First Team.


HM: Andrian Dantley (2nd in WS, 3rd in WS per 48 minutes, 2nd in PER), Sidney Moncrief, Isiah Thomas, MJ (didn't play enough games to qualify, but set playoff record for ppg average and single game scoring), Charles Barkley

[Gongxi]

There's honestly very little (comparative to other seasons, at least) that separates #1 through like #7 or #8 this year. You take out Bird at #1, and the gap between #2 and #8 becomes all but infinitesimal.
A pick 'em with Magic, KAJ, Moses Malone, Hakeem, Dantley, Isiah, Nique, and Chuck.

[An Unbiased Fan]

MJ had a RS PER of 27.5 & a PS PER of 30.1

I think he's my likely #1.

[Optimism Prime]

MJ had a RS PER of 27.5 & a PS PER of 30.1

I think he's my likely #1.

He only had 1.5 WS this year. GOD, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU.

[sp6r=underrated]

The Bird express should pick up a lot of steam at this point.

Debates I'm looking forward to
1. Magic Hakeem and 1986 WCF

2. KAJ and Hakeem: I think you can make a very strong case that reputation rather than actual value is the reason KAJ was 1st team

3. Will anyone make the case for Dantley? He is a statistical monster at this point but there is a lot of evidence his numbers overstate his value.

[sp6r=underrated]

C'mon now Jordan shouldn't get an HM. He played 18 games.

[Optimism Prime]

The Bird express should pick up a lot of steam at this point.

Debates I'm looking forward to
1. Magic Hakeem and 1986 WCF

2. KAJ and Hakeem: I think you can make a very strong case that reputation rather than actual value is the reason KAJ was 1st team

3. Will anyone make the case for Dantley? He is a statistical monster at this point but there is a lot of evidence his numbers overstate his value.

Responding to 2 and 3:

-Surely you're not implying that the media voters would be so biased as to pay attention to reputation instead of fact. Next thing I know you'll be saying that the all-defense teams are flawed and there's no Santa Claus. C'mon. I KNOW BETTER MAN.

-I'm game. Will try to get a post up tomorrow about Dantley. It'll be devil's advocate, but that's always fun for me.

[Gongxi]

I don't think I'm getting on the A-train (A for Adrian) until 83-84. ****, I'll just come out and say what my tentative rankings are, but this can easily change if I hear some decently good (I don't even need strong, really, if they're all shaking out in the same direction) arguments.

DOC THIS ISN'T MY OFFICIAL VOTE, I'LL POST THAT LATER

1- Bird, 2- Magic, 3- Isiah, 4- Nique, 5- Chuck

[An Unbiased Fan]

Rankings Thus Far.


1. Larry Bird - Won League MVP and Finals MVP, Led the league in Win Shares and Win Shares PER 48 minutes and PER. Led in Win Shares in the playoffs and finished 2nd in Win Shares per 48 minutes and 4th in PER in the playoffs.

2. Dominique Wilkins - Finished 2nd in MVP voting, 5th in season PER, led the league in PPG, All NBA First Team.

3. Magic Johnson - Finished 3rd in MVP voting, Finished 3rd in Win Shares and 2nd in Win Shares per 48 minutes in the season and 4th in PER. Finished 4th in Playoff Win Shares and 1st in Win Shares per 48 minutes and 2nd in Playoff Win Shares.

That upset to Houston here comes into play.

JB, for someone who values PER & WS so much, how in the World can you put Nique over Magic this year?

Regular Season
Nique - 30.3/7.9/2.6, 47% FG, 54% TS, 10.8 WS, 23.3 PER
Magic - 18.8/5.9/12.6, 53% FG, 61% TS, 12.1 WS, 24.0 PER
^
Nique led the league in scoring, but Magic led the league in assists. By every metric you usually value, Magic out performs Nique.

So that leads to the post-season where LA was upset by Houston. Even here, Magic significantly outperforms Nique.

Playoffs
Nique - 28.6/6.0/2.8, 43% FG, 51% TS, 0.3 WS, 16.7 PER
Magic - 21.6/7.1/15.1, 54% FG, 60% TS, 3.0 WS, 25.6 PER
^
I mean really, how can anyone who values PER & WS even think this is close.

[JordansBulls]

Rankings Thus Far.


1. Larry Bird - Won League MVP and Finals MVP, Led the league in Win Shares and Win Shares PER 48 minutes and PER. Led in Win Shares in the playoffs and finished 2nd in Win Shares per 48 minutes and 4th in PER in the playoffs.

2. Dominique Wilkins - Finished 2nd in MVP voting, 5th in season PER, led the league in PPG, All NBA First Team.

3. Magic Johnson - Finished 3rd in MVP voting, Finished 3rd in Win Shares and 2nd in Win Shares per 48 minutes in the season and 4th in PER. Finished 4th in Playoff Win Shares and 1st in Win Shares per 48 minutes and 2nd in Playoff Win Shares.

That upset to Houston here comes into play.

JB, for someone who values PER & WS so much, how in the World can you put Nique over Magic this year?

Regular Season
Nique - 30.3/7.9/2.6, 47% FG, 54% TS, 10.8 WS, 23.3 PER
Magic - 18.8/5.9/12.6, 53% FG, 61% TS, 12.1 WS, 24.0 PER
^
Nique led the league in scoring, but Magic led the league in assists. By every metric you usually value, Magic out performs Nique.

So that leads to the post-season where LA was upset by Houston. Even here, Magic significantly outperforms Nique.

Playoffs
Nique - 28.6/6.0/2.8, 43% FG, 51% TS, 0.3 WS, 16.7 PER
Magic - 21.6/7.1/15.1, 54% FG, 60% TS, 3.0 WS, 25.6 PER
^
I mean really, how can anyone who values PER & WS even think this is close.

Magic got upset in the playoffs this season. Also Nique still finished ahead of him in MVP voting and led the league in scoring. Besides I didn't say it was my final vote, but my rankings as of right now.

Also the Lakers played a 35 win team, a 44 win team and then 51 win team (once they played them they lost).
Nique lost to a team he should have lost to, Magic lost to a team he should have beaten.

[Optimism Prime]

Rankings Thus Far.


1. Larry Bird - Won League MVP and Finals MVP, Led the league in Win Shares and Win Shares PER 48 minutes and PER. Led in Win Shares in the playoffs and finished 2nd in Win Shares per 48 minutes and 4th in PER in the playoffs.

2. Dominique Wilkins - Finished 2nd in MVP voting, 5th in season PER, led the league in PPG, All NBA First Team.

3. Magic Johnson - Finished 3rd in MVP voting, Finished 3rd in Win Shares and 2nd in Win Shares per 48 minutes in the season and 4th in PER. Finished 4th in Playoff Win Shares and 1st in Win Shares per 48 minutes and 2nd in Playoff Win Shares.

That upset to Houston here comes into play.

JB, for someone who values PER & WS so much, how in the World can you put Nique over Magic this year?

Regular Season
Nique - 30.3/7.9/2.6, 47% FG, 54% TS, 10.8 WS, 23.3 PER
Magic - 18.8/5.9/12.6, 53% FG, 61% TS, 12.1 WS, 24.0 PER
^
Nique led the league in scoring, but Magic led the league in assists. By every metric you usually value, Magic out performs Nique.

So that leads to the post-season where LA was upset by Houston. Even here, Magic significantly outperforms Nique.

Playoffs
Nique - 28.6/6.0/2.8, 43% FG, 51% TS, 0.3 WS, 16.7 PER
Magic - 21.6/7.1/15.1, 54% FG, 60% TS, 3.0 WS, 25.6 PER
^
I mean really, how can anyone who values PER & WS even think this is close.

Magic got upset in the playoffs this season. Also Nique still finished ahead of him in MVP voting and led the league in scoring. Besides I didn't say it was my final vote, but my rankings as of right now.

Also the Lakers played a 35 win team, a 44 win team and then 51 win team (once they played them they lost).
Nique lost to a team he should have lost to, Magic lost to a team he should have beaten.

JB, I have to say--I hate this logic. That's why they play the games! Otherwise we could just say "Well, this is the best team; let's give them the ring!" before the season starts.

[mysticbb]

Bulls without Jordan 21-43, with Jordan 9-9, Jordan playing meaningful minutes 9-4. Jordan scored an All-Time best 63 points in the playoffs. Would we just go by the abilities of the players, he should be a Top3 candidate. But that isn't the case here, thus he has no business in being even in the conversation.

1st tier: Bird/Magic
2nd tier: Olajuwon/Wilkins/Barkley
3rd tier: Abdul-Jabbar/Moncrief/Thomas/McHale

Didn't look at anything so far, hope I will find some time tomorrow.

[JordansBulls]

JB, I have to say--I hate this logic. That's why they play the games! Otherwise we could just say "Well, this is the best team; let's give them the ring!" before the season starts.

Of course they play the games, in every series there is a team that is always the favorite and one that is always the underdog. It doesn't mean the favorite always wins. Out of 15 series, the Favorite may win 13 series.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Rankings Thus Far.


1. Larry Bird - Won League MVP and Finals MVP, Led the league in Win Shares and Win Shares PER 48 minutes and PER. Led in Win Shares in the playoffs and finished 2nd in Win Shares per 48 minutes and 4th in PER in the playoffs.

2. Dominique Wilkins - Finished 2nd in MVP voting, 5th in season PER, led the league in PPG, All NBA First Team.

3. Magic Johnson - Finished 3rd in MVP voting, Finished 3rd in Win Shares and 2nd in Win Shares per 48 minutes in the season and 4th in PER. Finished 4th in Playoff Win Shares and 1st in Win Shares per 48 minutes and 2nd in Playoff Win Shares.

That upset to Houston here comes into play.

JB, for someone who values PER & WS so much, how in the World can you put Nique over Magic this year?

Regular Season
Nique - 30.3/7.9/2.6, 47% FG, 54% TS, 10.8 WS, 23.3 PER
Magic - 18.8/5.9/12.6, 53% FG, 61% TS, 12.1 WS, 24.0 PER
^
Nique led the league in scoring, but Magic led the league in assists. By every metric you usually value, Magic out performs Nique.

So that leads to the post-season where LA was upset by Houston. Even here, Magic significantly outperforms Nique.

Playoffs
Nique - 28.6/6.0/2.8, 43% FG, 51% TS, 0.3 WS, 16.7 PER
Magic - 21.6/7.1/15.1, 54% FG, 60% TS, 3.0 WS, 25.6 PER
^
I mean really, how can anyone who values PER & WS even think this is close.

Magic got upset in the playoffs this season. Also Nique still finished ahead of him in MVP voting and led the league in scoring. Besides I didn't say it was my final vote, but my rankings as of right now.

Also the Lakers played a 35 win team, a 44 win team and then 51 win team (once they played them they lost).
Nique lost to a team he should have lost to, Magic lost to a team he should have beaten.

LA did get upset, no doubt. My question is how Nique's performance was better. The Hawks beat an average Pistons team and lost in 5 to Boston. It's not like they went to the Finals, or won it all. Nique was awful in the playoffs, while Magic was good.

I'm just surprised you're overlooking PER & WS, especially when there is such a dramatic difference in the PS.

[JordansBulls]

LA did get upset, no doubt. My question is how Nique's performance was better. The Hawks beat an average Pistons team and lost in 5 to Boston. It's not like they went to the Finals, or won it all. Nique was awful in the playoffs, while Magic was good.

I'm just surprised you're overlooking PER & WS, especially when there is such a dramatic difference in the PS.

I'm not really overlooking anything, I just gave my initial ranking. I might move up Hakeem and Magic in this and move Nique down. Might even be able to move up Hakeem to #2 based on how he played in the playoffs and in the finals as NO ONE expected Houston to beat LA that year.

The only ranking that is for sure right now is Bird's at #1.

[Optimism Prime]

JB, for someone who values PER & WS so much, how in the World can you put Nique over Magic this year?

Regular Season
Nique - 30.3/7.9/2.6, 47% FG, 54% TS, 10.8 WS, 23.3 PER
Magic - 18.8/5.9/12.6, 53% FG, 61% TS, 12.1 WS, 24.0 PER
^
Nique led the league in scoring, but Magic led the league in assists. By every metric you usually value, Magic out performs Nique.

So that leads to the post-season where LA was upset by Houston. Even here, Magic significantly outperforms Nique.

Playoffs
Nique - 28.6/6.0/2.8, 43% FG, 51% TS, 0.3 WS, 16.7 PER
Magic - 21.6/7.1/15.1, 54% FG, 60% TS, 3.0 WS, 25.6 PER
^
I mean really, how can anyone who values PER & WS even think this is close.

Magic got upset in the playoffs this season. Also Nique still finished ahead of him in MVP voting and led the league in scoring. Besides I didn't say it was my final vote, but my rankings as of right now.

Also the Lakers played a 35 win team, a 44 win team and then 51 win team (once they played them they lost).
Nique lost to a team he should have lost to, Magic lost to a team he should have beaten.

LA did get upset, no doubt. My question is how Nique's performance was better. The Hawks beat an average Pistons team and lost in 5 to Boston. It's not like they went to the Finals, or won it all. Nique was awful in the playoffs, while Magic was good.

I'm just surprised you're overlooking PER & WS, especially when there is such a dramatic difference in the PS.

Co-sign. Magic led the playoffs in WS/48.

[semi-sentient]

1985-86 Candidates

Regular Season

Code: Select all

Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Bird     82  38.0  25.8  .580   9.8   6.8  2.0  0.6  3.2  15.8  25.6
Magic    72  35.8  18.8  .610   5.9  12.6  1.6  0.2  3.8  12.1  24.0
Hakeem   68  36.3  23.5  .560  11.5   2.0  2.0  3.4  2.9   9.5  24.2
Barkley  80  36.9  20.0  .619  12.8   3.9  2.2  1.6  4.4  10.8  22.4
Kareem   79  33.3  23.4  .603   6.1   3.5  0.8  1.6  2.6  10.8  22.7
Moncrief 73  35.2  20.2  .604   4.6   4.9  1.4  0.2  2.4  11.7  20.0
Nique    78  39.1  30.3  .536   7.9   2.6  1.8  0.6  3.2  10.8  23.3

Post Season

Code: Select all

Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Bird     18  42.8  25.9  .615   9.3   8.2  2.1  0.6  2.6  4.2   23.9
Magic    14  38.6  21.6  .599   7.1  15.1  1.9  0.1  3.2  3.0   25.6
Hakeem   20  38.3  26.9  .566  11.8   2.0  2.0  3.5  2.3  3.7   25.6
Barkley  12  41.4  25.0  .631  15.8   5.6  2.3  1.2  2.7  2.0   23.8
Kareem   14  34.9  25.9  .586   5.9   3.5  1.1  1.7  3.0  1.6   21.2
Moncrief  9  36.3  16.9  .508   4.6   4.9  0.6  0.6  2.3  0.4   13.0
Nique     9  40.0  28.6  .510   6.0   2.8  1.0  0.2  3.3  0.3   16.7

Awards Recognition

Code: Select all

Player      MVP     DPOY   All-NBA   All-Defense
================================================
Bird        1       -      1st       ---
Magic       3       -      1st       ---
Hakeem      4       -      2nd       ---
Barkley     6       -      2nd       ---
Kareem      5       -      1st       ---
Moncrief    7       3      2nd       1st
Nique       2       -      1st       ---

Early Rankings:

1. Larry Bird
   
   
2. Magic Johnson
   
   
3. Hakeem Olajuwan
   
   
4. Charles Barkley
   
   
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

I'd like to hear more about the Lakers/Rockets WCF as I don't remember too much from back then. I know that Sampson sealed the deal in Game 5, but Hakeem and Reid were also key throughout IIRC. If anyone has time to rewatch, I'd be interested in hearing more analysis for games 2-4.

[JordansBulls]

1985-86 Candidates

Regular Season

Code: Select all

Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Bird     82  38.0  25.8  .580   9.8   6.8  2.0  0.6  3.2  15.8  25.6
Magic    72  35.8  18.8  .610   5.9  12.6  1.6  0.2  3.8  12.1  24.0
Hakeem   68  36.3  23.5  .560  11.5   2.0  2.0  3.4  2.9   9.5  24.2
Barkley  80  36.9  20.0  .619  12.8   3.9  2.2  1.6  4.4  10.8  22.4
Kareem   79  33.3  23.4  .603   6.1   3.5  0.8  1.6  2.6  10.8  22.7
Moncrief 73  35.2  20.2  .604   4.6   4.9  1.4  0.2  2.4  11.7  20.0
Nique    78  39.1  30.3  .536   7.9   2.6  1.8  0.6  3.2  10.8  23.3

Post Season

Code: Select all

Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Bird     18  42.8  25.9  .615   9.3   8.2  2.1  0.6  2.6  4.2   23.9
Magic    14  38.6  21.6  .599   7.1  15.1  1.9  0.1  3.2  3.0   25.6
Hakeem   20  38.3  26.9  .566  11.8   2.0  2.0  3.5  2.3  3.7   25.6
Barkley  12  41.4  25.0  .631  15.8   5.6  2.3  1.2  2.7  2.0   23.8
Kareem   14  34.9  25.9  .586   5.9   3.5  1.1  1.7  3.0  1.6   21.2
Moncrief  9  36.3  16.9  .508   4.6   4.9  0.6  0.6  2.3  0.4   13.0
Nique     9  40.0  28.6  .510   6.0   2.8  1.0  0.2  3.3  0.3   16.7

Awards Recognition

Code: Select all

Player      MVP     DPOY   All-NBA   All-Defense
================================================
Bird        1       -      1st       ---
Magic       3       -      1st       ---
Hakeem      4       -      2nd       ---
Barkley     6       -      2nd       ---
Kareem      5       -      1st       ---
Moncrief    7       3      2nd       1st
Nique       2       -      1st       ---

Early Rankings:

1. Larry Bird
   
   
2. Magic Johnson
   
   
3. Hakeem Olajuwan
   
   
4. Charles Barkley
   
   
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

I'd like to hear more about the Lakers/Rockets WCF as I don't remember too much from back then. I know that Sampson sealed the deal in Game 5, but Hakeem and Reid were also key throughout IIRC. If anyone has time to rewatch, I'd be interested in hearing more analysis for games 2-4.

You are not going to put a guy who finished #2 in MVP voting in your top 5?

[Optimism Prime]

1985-86 Candidates

Regular Season

Code: Select all

Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Bird     82  38.0  25.8  .580   9.8   6.8  2.0  0.6  3.2  15.8  25.6
Magic    72  35.8  18.8  .610   5.9  12.6  1.6  0.2  3.8  12.1  24.0
Hakeem   68  36.3  23.5  .560  11.5   2.0  2.0  3.4  2.9   9.5  24.2
Barkley  80  36.9  20.0  .619  12.8   3.9  2.2  1.6  4.4  10.8  22.4
Kareem   79  33.3  23.4  .603   6.1   3.5  0.8  1.6  2.6  10.8  22.7
Moncrief 73  35.2  20.2  .604   4.6   4.9  1.4  0.2  2.4  11.7  20.0
Nique    78  39.1  30.3  .536   7.9   2.6  1.8  0.6  3.2  10.8  23.3

Post Season

Code: Select all

Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Bird     18  42.8  25.9  .615   9.3   8.2  2.1  0.6  2.6  4.2   23.9
Magic    14  38.6  21.6  .599   7.1  15.1  1.9  0.1  3.2  3.0   25.6
Hakeem   20  38.3  26.9  .566  11.8   2.0  2.0  3.5  2.3  3.7   25.6
Barkley  12  41.4  25.0  .631  15.8   5.6  2.3  1.2  2.7  2.0   23.8
Kareem   14  34.9  25.9  .586   5.9   3.5  1.1  1.7  3.0  1.6   21.2
Moncrief  9  36.3  16.9  .508   4.6   4.9  0.6  0.6  2.3  0.4   13.0
Nique     9  40.0  28.6  .510   6.0   2.8  1.0  0.2  3.3  0.3   16.7

Awards Recognition

Code: Select all

Player      MVP     DPOY   All-NBA   All-Defense
================================================
Bird        1       -      1st       ---
Magic       3       -      1st       ---
Hakeem      4       -      2nd       ---
Barkley     6       -      2nd       ---
Kareem      5       -      1st       ---
Moncrief    7       3      2nd       1st
Nique       2       -      1st       ---

Early Rankings:

1. Larry Bird
   
   
2. Magic Johnson
   
   
3. Hakeem Olajuwan
   
   
4. Charles Barkley
   
   
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

I'd like to hear more about the Lakers/Rockets WCF as I don't remember too much from back then. I know that Sampson sealed the deal in Game 5, but Hakeem and Reid were also key throughout IIRC. If anyone has time to rewatch, I'd be interested in hearing more analysis for games 2-4.

You are not going to put a guy who finished #2 in MVP voting in your top 5?

Vote encompasses the whole year--pretty severe dropoff by Nique in the playoffs; both boxscore and advanced stats.