Is Kobe really an inefficient scorer?

[Phil Jackson]

:roll: here we go

hey bro are u going to edc that **** like right next door to u

[GameOver25]

:roll: here we go

[Bgil]

Apple's to oranges. Defense sucked in that era. Lots of wings shot absolutely ridiculous percentages.

1984-85 110.0 on .491
1985-86 110.4 on .487
1986-87 109.9 on .480
1987-88 108.2 on .480
1988-89 109.2 on .477
1989-90 107.0 on .476
1990-91 106.4 on .474
1991-92 105.3 on .472
1992-93 105.3 on .473

Kobe
1999-00 97.5 on .449
2000-01 94.8 on .443
2001-02 95.5 on .445
2002-03 95.1 on .442
2003-04 93.4 on .439
2004-05 97.2 on .447
2005-06 97.0 on .454
2006-07 98.7 on .458
2007-08 99.9 on .457
2008-09 100.0 on .459
2009-10 100.4 on .461

And the distribution for individual scorers was MUCH higher (meaning many more players shot above the average and below the average then do today).

for instance, here are some ridiculous numbers:
Dantley 29.8 on 56% fg.
Worthy 22.0 on 57.6% fg
Magic putting up .638 TS (and averaging over .600 TS for his career)
Kiki V hitting .600 TS five times in his career

I could literally post more than 100 seasons seasons of wing players putting up Dwight Howard-like numbers.

[JordansBulls]

Apple's to oranges. Defense sucked in that era. Lots of wings shot absolutely ridiculous percentages.

1984-85 110.0 on .491
1985-86 110.4 on .487
1986-87 109.9 on .480
1987-88 108.2 on .480
1988-89 109.2 on .477
1989-90 107.0 on .476
1990-91 106.4 on .474
1991-92 105.3 on .472
1992-93 105.3 on .473

Kobe
1999-00 97.5 on .449
2000-01 94.8 on .443
2001-02 95.5 on .445
2002-03 95.1 on .442
2003-04 93.4 on .439
2004-05 97.2 on .447
2005-06 97.0 on .454
2006-07 98.7 on .458
2007-08 99.9 on .457
2008-09 100.0 on .459
2009-10 100.4 on .461

And the distribution for individual scorers was MUCH higher (meaning many more players shot above the average and below the average then do today).

for instance, here are some ridiculous numbers:
Dantley 29.8 on 56% fg.
Worthy 22.0 on 57.6% fg
Magic putting up .638 TS (and averaging over .600 TS for his career)
Kiki V hitting .600 TS five times in his career

I could literally post more than 100 seasons seasons of wing players putting up Dwight Howard-like numbers.

He still shot a worse FG% than his team average whether you want to accept it or not, while those other guys shot a better FG% than their team average.

Guys nowadays can barely hit open shots. If someone was open in those days it was automatic.

[Jimmy76]

id be willing to buy the relative wing efficiency argument but someone would need to calculate the actual averages

and Durant and Lebron are managing 30ppg on 60 TS% so its not like it doesnt happen today

[Frosty]

for instance, here are some ridiculous numbers:
Dantley 29.8 on 56% fg.
Worthy 22.0 on 57.6% fg
Magic putting up .638 TS (and averaging over .600 TS for his career)
Kiki V hitting .600 TS five times in his career

I could literally post more than 100 seasons seasons of wing players putting up Dwight Howard-like numbers.

Hows that any different then Jose Calderon putting up .600 regularly? Ray Allen? Nash? Martin? Ginobli? Billups?

I mean Worthy and Magic benefited greatly from the run and gun layup drills they ran. Dantley made a living down low. Kiki played in up tempo Denver as well.

[Bgil]

I think the key is his ability to adjust his game to teammates.

I thought that was one of his major weaknesses. In the Olympics, you had games where some players would be really effective for a game. For example, in one game, every time Wade would get the ball, he'd drive in for an easy lay-up..he was like 7 for 8. Yet, you still saw Kobe taking the most shots, missing and taking contested jumpers. Why would you do that when you have such good teammates doing better than you?

Kobe was on the team to spread the floor and play defense... two things that Wade couldn't do for the team in 2004 or 2006. As Wade saw in 2006, it's hard to play inside when no one respects your shooters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7rbV7nDLm0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CJJWNRVZGE

For the Lakers, I thought he tended to take the same type of shots once his team got better, just less of them. He provides attention to make it easier for his teammates to operate, but it works the other way around too. Yet, his shooting percentage seems around the same despite going from terrible to great teammates.

I wouldn't go as far to say Kobe's shot selection now is entirely better but definitely different. In 2005 and 2006 he operated a lot from the high post and shot a ton of fadeaways from there. This season when he went to the post he went to the low post first.

[Alfred]

Apple's to oranges. Defense sucked in that era. Lots of wings shot absolutely ridiculous percentages.

1984-85 110.0 on .491
1985-86 110.4 on .487
1986-87 109.9 on .480
1987-88 108.2 on .480
1988-89 109.2 on .477
1989-90 107.0 on .476
1990-91 106.4 on .474
1991-92 105.3 on .472
1992-93 105.3 on .473

Kobe
1999-00 97.5 on .449
2000-01 94.8 on .443
2001-02 95.5 on .445
2002-03 95.1 on .442
2003-04 93.4 on .439
2004-05 97.2 on .447
2005-06 97.0 on .454
2006-07 98.7 on .458
2007-08 99.9 on .457
2008-09 100.0 on .459
2009-10 100.4 on .461

And the distribution for individual scorers was MUCH higher (meaning many more players shot above the average and below the average then do today).

for instance, here are some ridiculous numbers:
Dantley 29.8 on 56% fg.
Worthy 22.0 on 57.6% fg
Magic putting up .638 TS (and averaging over .600 TS for his career)
Kiki V hitting .600 TS five times in his career

I could literally post more than 100 seasons seasons of wing players putting up Dwight Howard-like numbers.

Have you taken into account that guards shot a lot less threes than they do now?

[Jordan23Forever]

..

[Ripp]

Scoring efficiency is nice, but Kobe creates offense for the rest of his teammates. Hyperefficient guys who consume offense only, rather than creating it aren't as valuable..

he doesnt really excel at this is the things, he's pretty good but he isnt making number 2 sg ever and hof based on his playmaking

Kobe's talent is scoring

fairly sure hes not referencing kobe's playmaking skills, (which are still top shelf for a shooting guard), but the fact he draws so much attention as a offensive player, it creates spacing and open/good looks for others within the confines of the triangle offense

Yep. Creation of offense doesn't literally mean assists for me..you create it also by attracting attention from opposing defenses, making it easier for a stiff like Fish to score..

While looking at Kobe's page on basketball-reference.com one thing jumps out at me...

This **** created his own nickname and got it to stick.

Good call. The so called Black Mamba. I think Kobe deserves a cooler nickname tbh...easily one of the weakest nicknames ever. I'm surprised the LA fanbase didn't come up with something better for him

EDIT: Amare has Black Jesus and STAT. Kobe has Black Mamba? He is too good a player to have such a weak nickname.

[Bgil]

for instance, here are some ridiculous numbers:
Dantley 29.8 on 56% fg.
Worthy 22.0 on 57.6% fg
Magic putting up .638 TS (and averaging over .600 TS for his career)
Kiki V hitting .600 TS five times in his career

I could literally post more than 100 seasons seasons of wing players putting up Dwight Howard-like numbers.

Hows that any different then Jose Calderon putting up .600 regularly? Ray Allen? Nash? Martin? Ginobli? Billups?

Calderon did it on 12ppg. Kenyon Martin is a PF.
Allen -- OK. Arguably the greatest shooter ever.
Nash and Billups aren't wings.
Ginobili - Hasn't cracked 20ppg even once in his career.

We're talking high scoring wings here. There might be a couple guys who got up there in this era but in MJ's era (particularly the 80's) there were tons of them.

[Jordan23Forever]

There's always an excuse for Kobe, always a rationalization. League average TS% has stayed roughly the same over the last 25 years, and I also posted how far above the league average each of them were. Somehow that's not good enough for Kobe fans -- more excuses have to be made.

The FACT of the matter is that a 4.5 ppg/3.3% TS difference is quite large, and there's really no way to rationalize it away. And if you don't think that a 24-30 year old Jordan would be posting 32+ ppg/58.5-60+% TS annually in today's league, then that's on you, because to most sane people that's a reasonable claim given the exploits of other players in recent years (Lebron/Wade/Kobe himself etc.).

and Durant and Lebron are managing 30ppg on 60 TS% so its not like it doesnt happen today

But you see, both of them are better scorers than Jordan according to Bgil.

Hows that any different then Jose Calderon putting up .600 regularly? Ray Allen? Nash? Martin? Ginobli? Billups?

I mean Worthy and Magic benefited greatly from the run and gun layup drills they ran. Dantley made a living down low. Kiki played in up tempo Denver as well.

Don't even try to reason with this guy. Here's a post I made in another thread regarding Bgil:

You're arguing with someone (Bgil), who, sometime during the '04-'06 span, said that Michael Jordan would not even be able to get a midrange shot off in "today's league." He actually said this. Not that MJ would convert at a lower percentage or anything -- this dude literally said that he WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO GET A SHOT OFF, and among other arguments he cited the same "handles" stuff he's spewing now as justification. He said something like "you need to have either insane quickness or crazy handles in order to get a midrange shot off today, and since MJ wasn't, in his opinion, as quick as AI or Wade, and didn't possess the handle of a Kobe/TMac (which is nonsense anyway, but I digress), he wouldn't be able to get shots off. Never mind the fact that a 40 year old MJ was still averaging 20 ppg just 1-3 seasons prior (depending on when he made the statement; I forget exactly) -- that didn't seem to qualify as countervailing evidence for some reason. This is the mentality you're dealing with here. You'll never win because he's proceeding from an illogical basis to begin with.

He's lucky the search function on this board doesn't work, because I would expose him like nobody's business. I've mentioned this at some point over the past year, and he flatly denies ever having said it, but I'm certain he did and he now just realizes how absurd it was to say. If Jordan wouldn't even be able to get a midrange shot off, of course a fossil like Dr. J wouldn't even be a 20 ppg scorer.

[Bgil]

Have you taken into account that guards shot a lot less threes than they do now?

Which only serves to make the MJ era look worse defensively. Imagine if the Cavs or Magic shot 300 three pointers a year instead of 1600+. All those driving lanes for Lebron and all the inside space for D12 would vanish. It would be ugly. No way Lebron would ever get to the hoop in the half court offense. Yet somehow in the 80's you could post 6'5 200 pound guys all day and have them shoot ridiculous percentages on high volume. Guy could get wide open 15 footers and drives to the basket with regularity.

Defense just sucked back then.

[semi-sentient]

not as efficient as Jordan but Jordan is at the top in this category

No he isn't. Jordan fans like to give you that impression by constantly comparing his stats obtained in a far less defensive era (and one requiring virtually no floor stretching/three point shooting) to the current era but there were lots of wings in MJ's era that shot as good or better percentages. Dantley, Magic, Kiki Vandeweghe, Alex English, Byron Scott, and James Worthy to name a few.

Good call on Dantley. Look at this 4-year stretch from 1980-81 to 1983-84:

30.7 PTS, .622 TS%
30.3 PTS, .631 TS%
30.7 PTS, .661 TS%
30.6 PTS, .652 TS%

[JordansBulls]

Don't get why people try to use Defensive rating when comparing teams now to 80's teams when teams in that decade simply had much better offensives and more productive. You rarely had teams in that era that gave the ball to one guy most of the time like you do nowadays. The reason teams scored more on possessions than is because they were much bettter on offense, while now normal guys can't even hit a shot.
I'd like to see Kobe defending someone in the 80's giving them 10 feet.

[ThreeYearPlan]

Translation for this thread
Jordan fans: stfu, Jordan=GOAT
Kobe fans: Please love my Kobe

[Illmatic21]

Kobe could really improve his effiiciency if he doesn't take those "KOBE" shots (hand in your face, dead ball -leaner, triple teamed, random three). Also, if he plays off the ball more, I can see him cracking 50% easily. Kobe is just making it hard for himself by playing the way he is.

If you take a look at guys like KG, he only takes money shots really. The wide open 20 footers and the 10 feet fadeways. Those are near-guaranteed for him. Kobe just loves to be dramatic.

I think once Kobe's finger is healed and fixed for good that we'll see a faster Kobe in terms of ball handling and a deadlier shooter. He should really go through with that surgery this offseason.

I agree, I don't know why he insists on shooting those shots.. we all know how deadly he is when he gets to his spots. He would shoot a disgusting percentage without the dumb threes and long contested jumpers. That's why a lot of people want to ignore stats when it comes to Kobe.. it seems like he inexplicably limits himself at times, though as a player he seems capable of exceeding those limits.

It's obvious the guy doesn't give a **** about his FG%, TS%, or whatever when he's on the court.. he'll keep shooting it and no one will tell him otherwise, despite what his teammates or coaches want. Maybe he's smarter than all of us.. he wouldn't have rabid fans willing to call him the GOAT if he was a career 50% but without the highlight reels shots and such.

[tsherkin]

Heh, Amare STOLE Black Jesus... that was taken before Amare was even born.

[Bgil]

and Durant and Lebron are managing 30ppg on 60 TS% so its not like it doesnt happen today

Many people, including myself, believe Lebron will end his career at the GOAT. Durant is just a phenom. They are the elite of the elite. That's a far cry from Alex English, Kiki V, Chris Mullin, Dantley etc.

[semi-sentient]

Food for thought ...

League average TS% since Jordan entered the league:

2009-10: 0.543
2008-09: 0.544
2007-08: 0.540
2006-07: 0.541
2005-06: 0.536
2004-05: 0.529
2003-04: 0.516
2002-03: 0.519
2001-02: 0.520
2000-01: 0.518
1999-00: 0.523
1998-99: 0.511
1997-98: 0.524
1996-97: 0.536
1995-96: 0.542
1994-95: 0.543
1993-94: 0.528
1992-93: 0.536
1991-92: 0.531
1990-91: 0.534
1989-90: 0.537
1988-89: 0.537
1987-88: 0.538
1986-87: 0.538
1985-86: 0.541
1984-85: 0.543