Retro POY '85-86 (Voting Complete)

[tkb]

1. Larry Bird
2. Magic Johnson
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Dominique Wilkins
5. Charles Barkley

[semi-sentient]

Decided to create a separate thread for articles, as they arguably take up too much room contrasted to the purpose or attempt at debate.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1023664

IMO, it's better to have them in the same thread so long as people don't quote them.

[sp6r=underrated]

Decided to create a separate thread for articles, as they arguably take up too much room contrasted to the purpose or attempt at debate.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1023664

IMO, it's better to have them in the same thread so long as people don't quote them.

Agreed. An article to me isn't any different than a long post, and I would never say long posts should be in a separate thread. It is when people quote them in full that we get epic scroll issues.

[kaima]

1) Bird
2) Olajuwon
3) Magic
4) Dominique
5) Moncrief

For all Bird's hype as the ultimate team player, I think this is the year where he superseded and thus extirpated his own cachet; he ruled the league, period.

The irony of Bird's dominance is, of course, that his team was stacked. Bird's presence was close to being bigger than the league, or its stand-in through personification, but for all his individual greatness this would have been likely a non-starter without that team.

Saw that with Jordan's frustrations, and how overlooked even Air could be when put on a lacking roster.

Context as conflation and, from that, confusion. Bird was Bird because of Boston, and vice versa. Simplified. Not altogether true, but partially so on perception.

No question, he was the man. Team helped to put him in position, but so few have ever excelled to such a level when given the opportunity.

Logo Redux. Either bigger than the league's image, or just that.

Olajuwon V Magic was interesting. Difficult.

Again, I judge Magic based on his ability to push teammates and dominate through that. Simplified, but true to say that he failed here.

Team was loaded. As usual. Won 60+. How surprising, right?

But they also were upset. People will tend to look at round, but the fact is that the Lakers were taken out by a team that won 11 fewer games than they did. Many teams have been excoriated, and their leaders likewise or in place, for losing with a far closer ratio in expressed talent.

Better competition this year in the West, and the Lakers failed to make it out because of it. Overall record of the three opponents was 130-116 (SRS 0.76); of the three opponents Boston faced in the East, the record compiled was 137-109 (SRS 8.16). Not a big difference, though looking beyond Chicago, the worst team in the playoffs, it's worth noting that Boston faced two fifty win teams in their bracket, as well as coming from a conference with twice as many teams that won fifty or more.

Of the two teams LA beat, the overall record was 79-85. The SRS was -1.35. (SRS is highly simple but also flawed in a number of ways, with one key element being conference bifurcation, I admit and always keep in mind)

LA went 4-2 against the 40+ win Mavs, while Boston went 8-1 against two 50+ win teams.

On talent, it appears that the Lakers were coasting. Was Magic getting the best out of his team? It doesn't appear so, no.

We all tend to think Magic was so much more than his own numbers, but that can be it's own burden when logically pursued; when a team as talented as the Lakers, and with a facilitator as hyped as Magic, you expect more. A lot more.

Matchup contexts played a big role in Houston winning. Olajuwon/Sampson tore through the Lakers.

But that's another way of saying that another star had greater impact on outcome than did Magic. A second year C.

On the other side, the Rockets are an odd team. The more I look at Olajuwon, the more the last two years mirror back.

This Rockets team reminds me of a super-sized 94 Denver Nuggets; they did so much more than was expected, so soon. From that, everybody thought that a sea change was either about to or had already taken place.

But this was the top. Another young team that was nothing more than a single serendipitous run; the next year they would win 9 fewer games and lose in the second round (with that record, they appeared to be LA's "threat" for the West), and two years later they would be eliminated in four in the first.

Back to Olajuwon specifically, his own career has similar ebbs and flows/lulls. Many stars are beyond their team's ups and downs -- they are victims of circumstance -- and, while this can partially be said for Olajuwon when looking at proceeding roster talent, the feeling was that this guy wasn't fully taking advantage of his gifts in the middle of his prime. It's a macro argument, but from my perspective he was a bit lacking in consistency.

The debate between steady greatness and preternatural spikes that, just as quickly, crash. Olajuwon is almost an iffy stock pick; great potential, but the CEO is doing blow and came out of Enron. Like looking for black gold.

This year Olajuwon struck a vein. Well, you know what I mean.

The last two picks were rather easy. Solid. Don't think they're the "best" on talent, but they best fit my outlook. Not fully happy with these two picks, yet the competition either wasn't that good.

Generally I'm more interested in Alphas. Don't like including backup talent, no matter how great. The Pippen Conundrum.

The Sixers were a team in flux. By the time that flux was settled, Barkley would be one of the league's top stars...on a mediocre to terrible team. McHale was George Harrison to Bird's Lennon. I guess McCartney was in the West.

Kareem was showing his age. The Sampson/Olajuwon combo TKO'd LA. Magic and Kareem failed, it would seem. Kareem directly, but Magic indirectly -- conflate LA's constant high-talent with the idea of Magic as the talent-magnifier, and his rep takes a hit with a series like this. LA tanked. Big time.

Dantley? Um, I always remember that excerpt about his advice to a young Karl Malone. He told him, more or less, that it was okay, even good, to take plays off.

[kaima]

Decided to create a separate thread for articles, as they arguably take up too much room contrasted to the purpose or attempt at debate.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1023664

IMO, it's better to have them in the same thread so long as people don't quote them.

Agreed. An article to me isn't any different than a long post, and I would never say long posts should be in a separate thread. It is when people quote them in full that we get epic scroll issues.

I'll let Doc decide.

If he wants the articles in one thread, to homogenize and strengthen things for archival purposes, I'll move them back over.

[An Unbiased Fan]

1. Bird
2. Magic
3. Hakeem
4. McHale
5. Barkley

[Optimism Prime]

1. Larry Bird
2. Magic Johnson
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Dominique Wilkins
5. Charles Barkley

[Optimism Prime]

Regarding Moncrief--here's a comparison.

Player A: in 72 games, 20.2 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.9 apg, 1.4 spg, 2.4 tpg on .489/.320/.859. Advanced: 20.0 PER, .604 TS%, 11.7 WS. Team pace of 102.1 (league average: 102.1)
Player B: in 78 games: 22.6 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 5.1 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.9 tpg on .480/.377/.824. Advanced: 24.0 PER, .573 TS%, 13.5 WS. Team pace of 86.6 (league average: 91.7)

I hate guessing games, so here's the answers. Player A is Moncrief 85-86; Player B is Brandon Roy 08-09. Moncrief had slightly more efficient shooting, a slight edge in steals, but near-equivalent raw numbers at a much faster team/league pace.

Guess I'm just at a loss here--is it his reputation? Nickname? Was there seriously NO ONE else out there you guys liked above Moncrief?

[Gongxi]

It is a good nickname.

[sp6r=underrated]

I already explained my first three votes
1. Larry
2. Magic
3. Hakeem
4. Nique: I said before the farther we go back the more I rely on MVP voting to help range players. Nique was extremely well respected this year. He was probably the best scorer in the NBA.
5. Barkley: What Doctor MJ said

HM
Moncrief, Kareem,

[Optimism Prime]

It is a good nickname.

Oh, absolutely. But then anything other than FirstInitial-LastThreeLettersOfLastName or FirstInitialLastInitialJerseyNumber is a good nickname to me these days.

I'm just curious why Moncrief is getting a ton of votes when Roy got none.

[ronnymac2]

I've decided my emergency picks were the right ones. Just to make it clear:

Final Rankings (Doc...do not count twice)

Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Hakeem Olajuwon
Isiah Thomas
Dominique Wilkins


Wilkins vs. Barkley was extremely difficult. I'll take Barkley's raw production over Nique's, but I think Nique was the better player. Charles was still making way too many mistakes at this point. Nique wins tiebreakers like winning a scoring title.

HM: Moncrief, Jabbar, Barkley, English, and yes, Mchale.

Weird-assed HM: Michael Jordan

[Doctor MJ]

Regarding Moncrief--here's a comparison.

Player A: in 72 games, 20.2 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.9 apg, 1.4 spg, 2.4 tpg on .489/.320/.859. Advanced: 20.0 PER, .604 TS%, 11.7 WS. Team pace of 102.1 (league average: 102.1)
Player B: in 78 games: 22.6 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 5.1 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.9 tpg on .480/.377/.824. Advanced: 24.0 PER, .573 TS%, 13.5 WS. Team pace of 86.6 (league average: 91.7)

I hate guessing games, so here's the answers. Player A is Moncrief 85-86; Player B is Brandon Roy 08-09. Moncrief had slightly more efficient shooting, a slight edge in steals, but near-equivalent raw numbers at a much faster team/league pace.

Guess I'm just at a loss here--is it his reputation? Nickname? Was there seriously NO ONE else out there you guys liked above Moncrief?

He's not in my top 5, but this example doesn't really resonate with me. First, Roy was a clear Top 10 level guy that year despite not being considered to have anywhere near the defensive impact as Moncrief - so Moncrief squeaking into the top 5 with that defense makes sense. Second, it's different years, and '08-09 has a really clear top 5.

[Doctor MJ]

As far as the 'making his teammates better' meme, that's not something that raises Nash above the competition mentioned, either.

I don't like that expression because people tend to use without any objective evidence. What Nash clearly did do was make the team offense much, much, much better.

[Doctor MJ]

IMO, it's better to have them in the same thread so long as people don't quote them.

Agreed. An article to me isn't any different than a long post, and I would never say long posts should be in a separate thread. It is when people quote them in full that we get epic scroll issues.

I'll let Doc decide.

If he wants the articles in one thread, to homogenize and strengthen things for archival purposes, I'll move them back over.

I don't have any strong feeling here. I'll link to the article cache in the main thread because I absolutely don't want people to fill up the board with variations of that thread. Not planning on stickying the thread unless it really takes off.

[ElGee]

My 1986 POY Ballot:

1. Larry Bird
2. Magic Johnson
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Isiah Thomas
5. Dominique Wilkins

Explanation if I have time later.

[Doctor MJ]

Alright, last call.

[Doctor MJ]

'85-86 Results

Code: Select all

Player               1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1. Larry Bird         22   0   0   0   0 220   1.000
2. Magic Johnson       0  14   8   0   0 138   0.627
3. Hakeem Olajuwon     0   8  12   1   1 120   0.545
4. Dominique Wilkins   0   0   1   7   6  32   0.145
5. Charles Barkley     0   0   0   4   7  19   0.086
6. Kevin McHale        0   0   0   6   0  18   0.082
7. Isiah Thomas        0   0   1   2   0  11   0.050
8. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 0   0   0   2   2   8   0.036
9. Sidney Moncrief     0   0   0   0   6   6   0.027


[semi-sentient]

Site updated: http://www.dolem.com/poy

No changes in the top 10 this time around. Bird will surpass LeBron and Robinson after the next round of voting, and Magic will pass Malone.

Code: Select all

1.  Michael Jordan     9.288
2.  Tim Duncan         6.153
3.  Shaquille O'Neal   5.910
4.  Karl Malone        4.649
5.  Magic Johnson      4.502
6.  Hakeem Olajuwon    4.376
7.  Kobe Bryant        3.658
8.  Kevin Garnett      3.388
9.  David Robinson     2.431
10. LeBron James       2.267

[sp6r=underrated]

Site updated: http://www.dolem.com/poy

No changes in the top 10 this time around. Bird will surpass LeBron and Robinson after the next round of voting, and Magic will pass Malone.

Code: Select all

1.  Michael Jordan     9.288
2.  Tim Duncan         6.153
3.  Shaquille O'Neal   5.910
4.  Karl Malone        4.649
5.  Magic Johnson      4.502
6.  Hakeem Olajuwon    4.376
7.  Kobe Bryant        3.658
8.  Kevin Garnett      3.388
9.  David Robinson     2.431
10. LeBron James       2.267

Bird is doing worse in this than I expected. We are coming up on some of his big years but I do not think he can catch Magic.