Retro Player of the Year Project

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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#741 » by ElGee » Sun Jun 27, 2010 12:54 am

Gongxi wrote:I wonder how the end result will look as compared to what I'd imagine my top 10 would be now. Would you guys expect that your rankings in this project will accurately reflect your top 10? Why wouldn't it? Do you think the results (again, your results) will make you reconsider some rankings you had previously?


As a disclaimer, I don't really get the "Top 10" lists because the criteria matter so much. Single season? Career? Single game? Building an entire team (where specialists and role players matter more)? How do we compare the 50s and 60s to post-3-point line play?

Anyway, the project has reinforced my opinions (I've already done this once from 80-04) but I've certainly learned more about a number of players and reconsidered different strengths and weaknesses. The arguments have been interesting to listen to. I've really enjoyed re-watching games -- even ones I may have seen more than once -- and catching certain things about players and team systems that I have may have missed.

Now I'm actually curious what criteria you guys use for all-time rankings...?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#742 » by ronnymac2 » Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:04 am

I've gained new respect for Dominique Wilkins, Patrick Ewing, and believe it or not, Kevin McHale. I know I haven't voted for him and have argued against him, but he was very effective in the post as a scorer.

Never thought Nique would make a top five of mine. I believe he has made two. The man was a scoring machine.

The scoring small forwards vs. Sidney Moncrief is something I'm going to have to think about soon. What do I really value more- super scoring + average everything else or very good all-around perimeter play?

I'm going to rethink Ewing vs. Robinson on my all-time list soon.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#743 » by Gongxi » Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:56 am

ElGee wrote:
Gongxi wrote:I wonder how the end result will look as compared to what I'd imagine my top 10 would be now. Would you guys expect that your rankings in this project will accurately reflect your top 10? Why wouldn't it? Do you think the results (again, your results) will make you reconsider some rankings you had previously?


As a disclaimer, I don't really get the "Top 10" lists because the criteria matter so much. Single season? Career? Single game? Building an entire team (where specialists and role players matter more)? How do we compare the 50s and 60s to post-3-point line play?

Anyway, the project has reinforced my opinions (I've already done this once from 80-04) but I've certainly learned more about a number of players and reconsidered different strengths and weaknesses. The arguments have been interesting to listen to. I've really enjoyed re-watching games -- even ones I may have seen more than once -- and catching certain things about players and team systems that I have may have missed.

Now I'm actually curious what criteria you guys use for all-time rankings...?


I agree, actually. I don't have a hard "list", but if I was gonna I'd do it across a career, dependent upon how good of a player the guy was, not what good teams he was on. So this project is pretty tailored towards my biases in how to rate the "greatest" players.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#744 » by penbeast0 » Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:29 am

For this competition, it isn't a major issue but in terms of the All Time List:

IN terms of duration, I tend to look at an 8 season peak, marking off some for shorter peaks and giving props for longer ones, but using 8 seasons as my HOF/GOAT type standard. I look primarily at how much the player dominated their era so centers like Wilt and Russ from the 60s tend to rate higher because the game was so oriented around the center position then. I tend to look at the weakness of the league only when there was competition effects -- smaller number of teams in the league tend to concentrate the players so no major effect except that playoff wins are easier (but not twice as easy); the period from 1949-1959 gets a serious gradedown because of the racism that barred a significant number of the best players from competing; 68-72 or so in the ABA get downgraded because the competition was weaker (73-74 get downgraded only a little, 75-76 are almost equal); periods where expansion was weakening the competition tended to produce inflated stats as well; and of course, comparing across eras you need to account for pace and relative efficiency compared to the league.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#745 » by ElGee » Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:24 am

penbeast0 wrote:For this competition, it isn't a major issue but in terms of the All Time List:

IN terms of duration, I tend to look at an 8 season peak, marking off some for shorter peaks and giving props for longer ones, but using 8 seasons as my HOF/GOAT type standard. I look primarily at how much the player dominated their era so centers like Wilt and Russ from the 60s tend to rate higher because the game was so oriented around the center position then. I tend to look at the weakness of the league only when there was competition effects -- smaller number of teams in the league tend to concentrate the players so no major effect except that playoff wins are easier (but not twice as easy); the period from 1949-1959 gets a serious gradedown because of the racism that barred a significant number of the best players from competing; 68-72 or so in the ABA get downgraded because the competition was weaker (73-74 get downgraded only a little, 75-76 are almost equal); periods where expansion was weakening the competition tended to produce inflated stats as well; and of course, comparing across eras you need to account for pace and relative efficiency compared to the league.


Wow, that's a pretty good answer.

So if I'm understanding correctly, you might take a 6-year peak from Dwyane Wade and say he was better over those 6 years (consistency is important I assume) than Reggie Miller for 10 years, but you'd bump up Miller and bump down Wade accordingly due to longevity?

And it's all dominance relative to league? No concerns about comparing guys from totally different time periods regarding non-statistical differences like rule changes, skill sets (technology) and scheme differences?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#746 » by penbeast0 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:48 pm

Yeah, 6 years v. 10 years is a significant difference to me, 8 years v. 12 years not nearly as significant because you have proved it for long enough to establish what I think of as a two generation (in basketball terms) period. Consistency is important, so is being on the court -- injury issues were a problem for Wade early on.

And in terms of dominance relative to league, I don't say that, gee . . . Ray Allen and Reggie Miller wouldn't be nearly as effective in the 60s/70s with no 3 point shot so they really can't be considered as great as a peer like Mitch RIchmond who didn't use the 3 (though Mitch would be hurt a lot less by 60s style rules). You can only play with the rules and competition that you face.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#747 » by Manuel Calavera » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:03 pm

Kareem is now at #36
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#748 » by JordansBulls » Sat Jul 3, 2010 12:16 am

So Monday is the next one or Tuesday?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#749 » by sp6r=underrated » Sat Jul 3, 2010 12:20 am

Moses is going to be a monster the next several seasons.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#750 » by JordansBulls » Sat Jul 3, 2010 12:43 am

sp6r=underrated wrote:Moses is going to be a monster the next several seasons.


My #1 the next two years
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#751 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jul 3, 2010 12:58 am

JordansBulls wrote:So Monday is the next one or Tuesday?


Was planning on Monday. Objections?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#752 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jul 3, 2010 1:00 am

JordansBulls wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:Moses is going to be a monster the next several seasons.


My #1 the next two years


Expecting he'll be my #1 the next 3 years actually. Compare the '80-81 & '81-82 regular seasons for Moses: Not any obvious difference, yet Moses wins the MVP the second year. Almost certainly strongly influenced by his dominant performance in the '81 playoffs leading to many concluding that he had been the best player for that season.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#753 » by sp6r=underrated » Sat Jul 3, 2010 1:26 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:Moses is going to be a monster the next several seasons.


My #1 the next two years


Expecting he'll be my #1 the next 3 years actually. Compare the '80-81 & '81-82 regular seasons for Moses: Not any obvious difference, yet Moses wins the MVP the second year. Almost certainly strongly influenced by his dominant performance in the '81 playoffs leading to many concluding that he had been the best player for that season.


Same here. I've done some preparation for the years ahead, and while I knew Moses was great, I didn't realize how good he was in comparison to his peers.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#754 » by ronnymac2 » Sat Jul 3, 2010 6:03 pm

Just to get a little early start on 83.....I watched the Spurs vs. Lakers game on youtube. It's the WCF, game 6. Some observations:

Magic Johnson dominated despite scoring about two points. He controlled the pace of the game and had about 15 assists, eight rebounds, and two steals (something like that...they didn't show stats a lot during games). He played disruptive defense. The Lakers offensive rebounding was fantastic, and Magic "Young Buck" Johnson was a major reason. He was the impetus with his physical play.

He didn't score a lot, but he played great in an elimination game in the WCF. His overall playoff averages in scoring suffer, especially with such a small sample size relative to a regular season. Just keep that in mind when looking at anybody's playoff stats.

Jabbar vs. Gilmore was actually a really good matchup. Gilmore's post game is mechanical and has no creativity, but he is long, lefty, and has a nice touch. Powerful, too. Sort of like Dwight without the explosion, though to be fair, this is Gilmore after leg injuries I believe. He is very good on the glass and on defense. Uses his length well, though his mobility is hampered by having to stand near Jabbar all the time.

Jabbar is great. Gilmore pushed him farther out than normal. Kareem was fantastic in iso's especially in the first quarter. Hit big shots in the second half. I've watched Finals game from this year, too, and I can see that Jabbar is better scoring the ball this year than 84 and 85 in isolation. He isn't as reliant on the guards. You can just throw him the ball even against Gilmore and Moses and he'll score on them. He was still fantastic in 84 and 85, but in 83, he was even better. Near 1980 form. He DID score an league playoff-high 27 ppg going up against two of the best centers in the game the majority of the time.

I really like San Antonio's team and style- they are cool to watch. Los Angeles is clearly the better team, but I like SA's build. Johnny Moore runs the team beautifully and allows Gervin to play off the ball all the time as a finisher. Mike Mitchell is very good, and Gene Banks is solid. Mitchell can score with versatility, and Banks can handle the ball well. Mike Dunleavy is the best shooter in the league this season and comes off the bench. Gilmore doesn't do anything outside of what he knows he can do, which SA can afford with their offensive talent. Powerful finisher and is the defensive anchor. He makes them respectable on defense.

Then, Gervin is the high powered scoring machine. He's always in attack mode. It's always better to make a scorer like that a finisher, and SA does just that. Gervin never holds the ball much. He gets it in good positions and attacks. He's not a bad passer either. Not elite, and definitely not able to play point or create like Kobe, T-Mac, Wade, etc., but all right. His ball-handling leaves something to be desired compared to other elite wings. Average rebounder. Absolutely no intensity on defense. For some reason, he's guarding Magic most of the game, and despite having height and length, he doesn't even put his hands up most of the time. He's the anti-Pippen. To be fair, he did make a couple of deflections off the ball.

Gervin really is similar to Kevin Durant. Great scorer. Amazing scorer. Same type of impact in other areas, except Durant is a better rebounder and defender.

Gervin didn't have a great shooting night in this game, or in game five apparently. He only averaged about 23 a game in the series I believe. Jabbar scored 30 in game 5.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#755 » by Dr Positivity » Sat Jul 3, 2010 6:16 pm

Wow that Spurs-Lakers series is weird. Games 2-6 were all won by the road team. Must not be many series where road dominance like that happened.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#756 » by sp6r=underrated » Sat Jul 3, 2010 7:02 pm

Dr Mufasa wrote:Wow that Spurs-Lakers series is weird. Games 2-6 were all won by the road team. Must not be many series where road dominance like that happened.


What is really weird is the Lakers actually had to face a decent team in the Western Conference instead of the usual trash they played.

Fun fact: the Showtime lakers from 81-87 only played three teams that won 50 games, and not one that won more than 55 games in the WC. In the playoffs, finals included, they went 24-21 over that span when they played 50 win teams.

Compare them to some other champions in recent years.

I. Boston from 81-87, who went 43-33 against 50 win teams.
II. Detroit from 87-91, who went 34-22 against 50 win teams.
III. Chicago from 90-98 who went 79-38 against 50 win teams (76-34 excluding 94).
IV. Lakers from 00-04, who went 54-25 against 50 win teams.
V. Spurs from 03-08, who went 50-29 against 50 win teams.

After reviewing this project, and some other research I've done, I think Showtime while an all time great dynasty had their reputation enhanced by playing in a crappy conference.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#757 » by TrueLAfan » Sat Jul 3, 2010 7:13 pm

Nice call about looking back at some of those old series.. I watched (most) of a Spurs/Lakers game last night. It reminded of that the Spurs had a great team in 1983. Johnny Moore was a very good player—you don't hear anything about him now, but he was quick, could defend capably, and was a very good playmaker. He was a lot like Doc Rivers or (slightly lesser) Mo Cheeks. He got some sort of disease that ended his effective playing career by the time he was 28, which is too bad...he's one of those guy who could have developed into an All-Star. He was terific in 1983.

Then the Spurs ran three 6'7” guys at you—Gervin (scoring machine). Mike Mitchell (beautiful shooting stroke; one of the best catch and shoot player sof the 1980s), and Gene Banks (tough defender and rebounder). Combine that with Gilmore, and a bench of Mike Dunleavy, Bill Willoughby, Paul Griffin and Edgar Jones. That's a very good, deep team. In another era, these Spurs would have made the Finals more than once (for instance, I'd take them over the early 1990s Blazer teams).
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#758 » by JordansBulls » Sat Jul 3, 2010 8:45 pm

I think the interesting thing here is that Malone has more POY shares than Hakeem when Hakeem was clearly the better player.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#759 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jul 3, 2010 9:30 pm

ronnymac2 wrote:Jabbar vs. Gilmore was actually a really good matchup. Gilmore's post game is mechanical and has no creativity, but he is long, lefty, and has a nice touch. Powerful, too. Sort of like Dwight without the explosion, though to be fair, this is Gilmore after leg injuries I believe. He is very good on the glass and on defense. Uses his length well, though his mobility is hampered by having to stand near Jabbar all the time.


Gilmore, before the mileage :D

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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#760 » by sp6r=underrated » Sat Jul 3, 2010 10:10 pm

Good god look at his legs. He is almost as well developed as I am.
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