why isnt there criticism for linds and hills batting?

KenPiffilousIII · Post #1 » by **KenPiffilousIII** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:23 am

they are terrible...batting .200
whats the real difference between theyre struggles and rios' and wells last year?
i hate to play the race card, but it seems that way a bit. i think rios' and wells contracts were a more than lind and hill, but they are struggling a lot.

Post #2 » by **Schad** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:47 am

First, playing the race card is idiotic, so don't 'hate to play' it...just don't **** play it.

Second, there has been a fair amount of criticism. With Hill, I suspect that it hasn't been as vociferous partially because he's getting extremely unlucky...if and when his batting average on balls in play ends up back in the .250-.280 range, he'll be fine. With Lind, I do think that it has to do somewhat with his contract, and the fact that we're not quite sure what we have with him, anyway...his success last year came outta nowhere, so whether he's regressing, injured or just in an extended slump, no one seems sure.

Third, and you have no idea how much it pains me, but I had to remove your sig, as it was way too tall. I may have watched it for a good two minutes first.

KenPiffilousIII · Post #3 » by **KenPiffilousIII** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:55 am

from what it looks like hill is just trying to hit homeruns...lind looks AWFUL against lefties...looks like hes far off the batters box...

oh could you adjust it for me if possible (sig)

Post #4 » by **tsherkin** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:51 am

Lind looks awful against anything thrown outside, nevermind just against lefties.

Hill will come around eventually, though one thing that's bugging me is that his LD% is WAY down. Most of his other peripherals look pretty similar except for baBIP. But at .182, his baBIP is WAY the Hell down. The line drive percentage is a part of it and Hill needs to get himself together a little bit, but he'll be OK eventually.

Lind's baBIP is around .244, which is below average but not by as much as Hill's. His LD% is nearly identical, but he's striking out a lot more frequently, he's walking less, grounding out more, he's not even putting the ball in play as often. Hill's striking out like 1% more often, but Lind is doing so about 8% more often.

There's definitely a difference in why each of these two guys are struggling.

Post #5 » by **Geddy** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:13 am

I'm more concerned about Hill's fielding than his batting. He is making elementary mistakes that you would never have expected from him in the past.

Hoopstarr · Post #6 » by **Hoopstarr** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:16 am

Dude, it's on the 2nd page of threads: viewtopic.php?f=123&t=1018303

Hoopstarr · Post #7 » by **Hoopstarr** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:22 am

rkid wrote:I'm more concerned about Hill's fielding than his batting. He is making elementary mistakes that you would never have expected from him in the past.

Yep, he was pretty awesome last year based on RZR, double play stats, and out of zone plays. **** UZR for not agreeing. This year he's screwing up some gimmes. Just today he made a great diving catch, then screwed up two DPs.

KenPiffilousIII · Post #8 » by **KenPiffilousIII** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:36 am

Hoopstarr wrote:Dude, it's on the 2nd page of threads: viewtopic.php?f=123&t=1018303

ya im gonna go thru pages just to see if theres an adam lind/aaron hill thread before i post my own

**** outta here

Post #9 » by **Schad** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:51 am

KenPiffilousIII wrote:
Hoopstarr wrote:Dude, it's on the 2nd page of threads: viewtopic.php?f=123&t=1018303

ya im gonna go thru pages just to see if theres an adam lind/aaron hill thread before i post my own

**** outta here

You ask why there isn't criticism; he point out that there has been. You curse at him.

I'll get my one warning on the Jays board this season out of the way now.

KenPiffilousIII · Post #10 » by **KenPiffilousIII** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:03 am

then you should merge this thread then....

Post #11 » by **Schad** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:11 am

Nah. I'll just run an IP check, realize that you're a thrice-banned idiot, and bestow upon you the golden sombrero.

KenPiffilousIII · Post #12 » by **KenPiffilousIII** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:36 am

hey man im just saying if theres a thread already like this why not merge the two?

RapsFanInVA · Post #13 » by **RapsFanInVA** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:37 pm

Schadenfreude wrote:Nah. I'll just run an IP check, realize that you're a thrice-banned idiot, and bestow upon you the golden sombrero.

Hey Lind earned one of those this year!

jalenrose#5 · Post #14 » by **jalenrose#5** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:57 pm

Personally, I think both of these guys need a clean slate. Next year when they start fresh they'll have a better year.

Also, is it just me or are both of them just trying to hit homers and that's it due to the contracts they signed. Hill's swing is shorter and thus doesn't strike out as much, but his Fly Ball percentage is pretty high and Lind, well he's been striking out a ton and looking over-matched on anything outside.

I really don't know what the difference is in hitting coach philosophies from Gene Tenace and Dwayne Murphy, but something has to be done.

Avenger · Post #15 » by **Avenger** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:57 pm

I think its pretty naive to suggest that race has absolutely nothing to do with it. There are other factors like contracts but race definitely has something to do with. Personality wise, Vernon isn't really that different from Hill and Rios isn't that different from Lind. You can't slam Rios for not showing emotion or appearing to play lazy and let Lind get away with it because Lind sometimes plays like he doesn't want to be there. Now i don't necessarily believe in that nonsense because i know slumps happen and the player can't do much to get out of them no matter how hard he tries but the double standards are disturbing.

If you believe that the reason they're hitting like **** is because they're lazy bums that only play baseball for their big contracts (like the majority of the fanbase did with Vernon and Rios) than you should be just as pissed at Hill's lazy popups as you were at Well's groundouts to second base and boo just as hard at Lind's caught looking at strike three as you did for Rios's swinging strikeouts.

satyr9 · Post #16 » by **satyr9** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:17 pm

I don't buy it Avenger. To me it's a question of timing. If Hill and/or Lind continue to fail to live up to their contracts into next season you would start to see every single one of those criticisms. People were patient with Rios forever before finally finding reasons to hate him. Wells was slightly different simply because that extension was so ginormously overpriced people were pissed from the beginning, but there were still lots of justifications and people willing to play wait and see with his struggles for at least a year.

My proof it's not race related? Eric Hinske (lots of other white guys who've heard it from the fans, but as a young prospect who got extended early, it's the most similar to Rios/Lind/Hill). People crucified him, but they didn't do it in his sophomore year, it took a little bit longer. With the young guys, there's always some grace period when they hit the skids, but it doesn't last.

Avenger · Post #17 » by **Avenger** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:51 pm

satyr9 wrote:I don't buy it Avenger. To me it's a question of timing. If Hill and/or Lind continue to fail to live up to their contracts into next season you would start to see every single one of those criticisms. People were patient with Rios forever before finally finding reasons to hate him. Wells was slightly different simply because that extension was so ginormously overpriced people were pissed from the beginning, but there were still lots of justifications and people willing to play wait and see with his struggles for at least a year.

I disagree, Rios was a very good player in 2008 and went to the all star game in 07 and 06. People showed absolutely no patience with him in 2009, his first two years might not have been spectacular but since then he's been one of the best young outfielders in the game. He might not have become the superstar/franchise player that people saw in him but he still was a very good player and guess what, this team is gonna be looking for a tremendous defensive center fielder that can hit for a very very long time. Alex Rios is a legitimate MVP candidate right especially with the White Sox back in contention with their 11 game win streak and we let him go for nothing.

satyr9 · Post #18 » by **satyr9** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:30 pm

It was his entire career. There was a flash, then a slump, then another slump, then a flash. I think you're probably right that people had little patience after his extension, which does negate what I said in part, but I don't think it's 'cause he was PR or not white, but because he was so tantalizing and frustrating his entire career.

And he wasn't very good in 2008 anyway, at least not with the bat. 2007 was the year everyone thought his power was finally coming around, but 08 was a regression from that and 09 was when people started to get pissy. His 08 numbers were fine for a new player on rookie scale, but sub .800 OPS doesn't cut it once you've gone beyond that stage and have already raised the expectation level. Now, it got very little credit and rarely does, but his defense was phenomenal.

Raptor_Guy · Post #19 » by **Raptor_Guy** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:50 pm

Wells was criticized because he was supposed to be good all his career and was given a massive contract.

Rios for the same reasons, and on top of that there was a lot of evidence of him simply being a lazy player.

Those reasons don't necessarily apply to Lind and Hill, the race card has nothing to do with anything.

J-Roc · Post #20 » by **J-Roc** » Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:02 am

Reason there is no criticism is because fans don't care about winning anyways. It's about tanking. Hill and Lind are not part of the future, but will still be tradeable after only one bad season. Blue Jays baseball!!