Retro POY '84-85 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 best player seasons of '84-85. Some pointers:

-Change in schedule. We will now operate by splitting the week into thirds: Mon-Wed, Wed-Fri, Fri-Mon. I will label each thread with it's deadline.

-The voting panel is not officially closed. However, if you'd like to be a part of it, contact me - more dedicated, knowledgeable voters will always be wanted.

-This includes both regular and post-season. You should be weighing both in to some degree, and should not be ranking one star over another just because of how far each got in the playoffs.

-Vote sincerely. Do not move a player down in your voting to give another player an advantage. I would encourage every voter to give some explanations while they do their voting - but particularly if you have a top 5 that deviates strongly with the norm and you haven't expressed your thoughts on it earlier in the thread. If I'm not satisfied, I may ask you for more of an explanation - and it may come to actually booting people out of the project.

Some things to start us off:

Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1985.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1985.html
Award Voting http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... _1985.html

Topics for '84-85

-Bird & Magic, Magic & Bird
-A star takes flight
-King falls

[semi-sentient]

1984-85 Candidates


Regular Season

Code: Select all

Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Magic    77  36.1  18.3  .637   6.2  12.6  1.5  0.3  4.0  12.7  23.2
Bird     77  39.5  28.7  .585  10.5   6.6  1.6  1.2  3.1  15.7  26.5
Kareem   79  33.3  22.0  .628   7.9   3.2  0.8  2.1  2.5  11.2  22.9
Jordan   82  38.3  28.2  .592   6.5   5.9  2.4  0.8  3.5  14.0  25.8
Moncrief 73  37.5  21.7  .565   5.4   5.2  1.6  0.5  2.5  11.2  20.1
Cummings 79  34.5  23.6  .536   9.1   2.9  1.5  0.8  2.4  10.7  22.1
Isiah    81  38.1  21.2  .529   4.5  13.9  2.3  0.3  3.7  11.2  22.2
Malone   79  37.4  24.6  .577  13.1   1.6  0.8  1.6  3.6  11.9  22.5

Post Season

Code: Select all

Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Magic    19  36.2  17.5  .599   7.1  15.2  1.7  0.2  4.0  3.0   22.3
Bird     20  40.8  26.0  .536   9.1   5.8  1.7  1.0  2.9  2.6   20.9
Kareem   19  32.1  21.9  .602   8.1   4.0  1.2  1.9  2.7  2.5   22.1
Jordan   4   42.8  29.3  .565   5.8   8.5  2.8  1.0  3.8  0.7   24.7
Moncrief 8   39.9  23.0  .697   4.3   5.0  0.6  0.5  2.5  1.4   19.9
Cummings 8   38.9  27.5  .630   8.8   2.5  1.5  0.9  3.3  1.2   22.6
Isiah    9   39.4  24.3  .567   5.2  11.2  2.1  0.4  3.3  1.2   22.7
Malone   13  38.8  20.2  .509  10.6   1.8  1.3  1.7  1.8  1.7   18.0

NBA Finals

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Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Magic    6   39.9  18.3  .569   6.8  14.0  2.2  0.0  3.3  ---   ---
Kareem   6   35.5  25.7  .629   9.0   5.2  1.0  1.5  2.8  ---   ---
Bird     6   40.2  23.8  .527   8.8   5.0  1.8  0.7  2.2  ---   ---
McHale   6   40.0  26.0  .644  10.7   1.3  0.3  1.8  2.7  ---   ---

Awards Recognition / Misc

Code: Select all

Player      MVP     DPOY   All-NBA   All-Defense    Team Record
================================================================
Magic       2       -      1st       ---            62-20
Bird        1       -      1st       ---            63-19
Kareem      4       -      2nd       ---            62-20
Moncrief    8       2      2nd       1st            59-23
Jordan      6       -      2nd       ---            38-44
Cummings    5       -      ---       ---            59-23
Isiah       9       -      1st       ---            46-36
Malone      3       -      1st       ---            58-24

Here's a few playoff match-ups I'd be interested in hearing more about, for those who have time to rewatch games:

- Jordan vs. Moncrief (met in 1st round)
- Moses vs. Parish (met in ECF)
- Bird vs. Cooper (met in NBA Finals)


Additional Notes:

- This was the year that they implemented the 2-3-2 format, thanks to Auerbach crying to Stern about the traveling in between games.

- In the Finals, the Celtics absolutely creamed the Lakers 148-114, a game which was dubbed the "Memorial Day Massacre."

- The NBA Finals featured 10 future HOFers (8 players, 2 coaches).


Early Rankings:

1. Magic Johnson - It's close overall, but Magic nudges out Bird for having a better post-season and for out-playing him (handily) in the NBA Finals, effectively denying Bird's Celtics of a repeat despite having HCA. This was also the first time in history that the Lakers had beaten the Celtics in the NBA Finals (on their court, no less), so it was a rather historic moment for the franchise after so many defeats at the hands of their rivals. Outside of that, Magic was the MVP runner-up and made the All-NBA 1st team, as well as leading his team to the 2nd best record in the league. Oh, and as usual, he ran the highest rated offense in the league.
   
   
2. Larry Bird - While he was the best player in the regular season, he fell off in the playoffs and especially the NBA Finals. I know the injury excuse is going to crop up at some point, but Cooper did play some great defense on Bird who struggled throughout. Still, he is no worse than 2nd this year overall as he was the league MVP, All-NBA 1st team'er, and led the Celtics to the best record in the league and a return trip to the NBA Finals.
   
   
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - An incredible season for Cap, which was "capped" off by winning the NBA Finals MVP (huge Game 2 to even things out after the Lakers got trashed in Game 1). It's truly amazing what this guy was doing at 37 years of age. He also finished 4th in MVP voting and made an appearance on the All-NBA 2nd team.
   
   
4. Sidney Moncrief - The Squid was the only player to make the All-NBA team (2nd) and All-Defensive team (1st), and this time around his post-season play didn't fall off the map (led the league in TS%). He was also the DPOY runner-up behind Eaton and led the Milwaukee Bucks to the 3rd best record in the league. While Cummings got more MVP votes, I have a hard time believing he was more valuable than Sid who was a great two-way player.
   
   
5. Michael Jordan - Yeah, he was a rookie and the Bulls weren't that great, but Jordan came into the league and played like he'd been there for years. His play didn't fall off in the post-season either, and considering he was 6th in MVP voting and made the All-NBA 2nd team, I think he's deserving of a spot in the top 5.

HM: Isiah Thomas, Terry Cummings, Moses Malone

[JordansBulls]

Might not have much time this week, but I'll give my rankings up front.

1. Magic Johnson - was 3rd in Win Shares and 2nd in WS PER 48 minutes in the season, and 4th in season PER, NBA 1st Team. Finished 1st in Playoff Win Shares.

2. Larry Bird - Won League MVP, 1st in Win Shares in the season, 1st in PER in the season and 1st in WS Per 48 in the season. Finished 3rd in Playoff Win Shares

3. M.Jordan - Finished 6th in MVP voting, Finished 2nd in Win Shares on the season and was 2nd in WS per 48 minutes, finished 2nd in Season PER. Finished 1st in Playoff PER, Finished 3rd in scoring and lead the league in total points as a rookie.

4. Moses Malone - Finished 3rd in MVP voting, 4th in season Win Shares, All NBA 1st Team.

5. Kareem - Finished 4th in MVP Voting, All NBA 2nd team, 5th in playoff WS, and 5th in Playoff PER.

[Dr Positivity]

1. Bird
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Moses
5. Jordan

Bird is a pretty clear #1 for me. Dominated the MVP vote (got all but 1 1st place vote), put up a 29/11/7, led the league in PER and WS, Celtics make the Finals and lose narrowly behind his work.

Controversial decision but I'm putting Kareem over Magic this year. Everything to me indicates Magic has a slight edge in the Reg. season - MVP shares, PER/WS, etc. Kareem was the Finals MVP. I'm valuing that slightly over Magic's (apparent) small regular season advantage, though I'd be interested in arguments from people there at the time.

Moses put up a 25/13 on a 58 win team, finished 3rd in MVP voting and was 1st team All-NBA over Kareem, his playoff stats don't look great but Philly did alright making it to the ECF and losing to a better Celtics.

Jordan has a big 28/6/6 .60 TS%, 26 PER, 2nd overall in WS season right off the bat. Too young to put him over Moses for me and it didn't translate to wins

[sp6r=underrated]

Semi

Why would anyone give Bird a pass for his injury?

He injured his finger in a bar fight.

[semi-sentient]

^^^ I think, although I'm not certain, that he was having some back issues as well.

[ElGee]

Elbow bursitis caused him to miss game 3 (loss) of the Cleveland series. I'll try to post some articles from this year in a minute.

[TrueLAfan]

1. Bird. This year is close between Bird and Magic. Bird had the better regular season. Magic had the better playoff run. But...actually, Bird was tearing things up in the playoffs until the Finals. And, even then, his 24-9-5 isn't exactly chopped liver. He had too much oomph from the RS to drop him to #2. Which means...
2. Magic. Magic averaged 18.3-6.2-13.6 during the season. On less than 12 shots a game. And he was just as great in the playoffs and finals. But the guy who stepped on the Celtics' throats in the Finals was the Cap. So Magic stays at #2 while I elevate the other guy, who happens to be...
3. Kareem. Do I honestly think Kareem was the third best player in the league? During the regular season—no. He was, probably, around the 4th or 5th best. But that's one of the reasons why we're doing this. Going into the finals against Boston, Kareem was only playing 30 minutes a game in the playoffs—but they were a damn impressive 30 minutes!

30.5 mpg, 20.2 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 3.5 apg, 2.3 bpg

Then there was the Memorial Day Massacre...and in the last five games of the finals, Kareem at 37, in his 16th year, was the Kareem of the late 70s and very early 80s. He put up 28.4 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 6.0 apg, and shut down Robert Parish. Way to go, Big Fella.
4. MJ. So close between MJ and Moncrief. It sounds funny to say this now, but people weren't as impressed with MJ's rookie year as you might think. In later years, the story has grown about how awful the surrounding team was...except Lumber Corzine, David Greenwood, and Steve Johsnon were an effective, if foul-happy, frontcourt. Woolridge and Dailey could play a little too. Jordan was still great, but—no. He wasn't really clsoe to the top 2...and Kareem had a better playoff run. MJ had a rare mediocre postseason series against the Bucks; Moncrief was just everywhere in that series. So I have to say, for #5, I've got...
5. Moncrief. You know, I was going to put Moses here. I was. But Moses played poorly in a lot of the playoffs—when the Celtics took away some of his rebounding and pushed him away from the hoop, he had no way to help his team. He was slowing down and his D was markedly worse, and as great as he was, he didn't help his team as much as Sidney. And Moncrief did all the little things this year. Terry Cummings, statistically, was as good as Moncrief. But the Sixers swept the Bucks because of Barkley (not Moses), and Cummings was helpless in guarding him.

HM Moses (who was so miserable on D against the Celtics I can't accurately describe it), Cummings, King

[semi-sentient]

Bird is a pretty clear #1 for me. Dominated the MVP vote (got all but 1 1st place vote), put up a 29/11/7, led the league in PER and WS, Celtics make the Finals and lose narrowly behind his work.

Lost narrowly? Behind Bird? They lost because Bird -- the MVP version -- failed to show up.

The Celtics lost twice on their floor (they had HCA, mind you) and lost by 11 in the closeout game at the Garden. It was McHale, not Bird, that came to play in a losing effort, and if not for Johnson hitting a game-winning shot at the buzzer in Game 4 the Lakers might have very well ended it in 5 games (to Bird's credit, he was double-teamed and that left DJ open for the shot). Even in the game 1 blowout, it was Ainge, Wedman, and McHale that deserve the bulk of the credit for going nuts in the first 3 quarters. I don't think Bird should be boosted in any way for what he did in the Finals. If anything, that series (and his playoffs as a whole) should be a negative after having such a great regular season.

I think Kareem is being overrated a bit as well. He was great in the Finals, but so was Magic.

Magic, BTW, had two triple-doubles (20pts/11reb/12ast in game 4 and 14pts/10reb/14ast in game 6), not to mention his 17pts/9reb/16ast effort in game 3 and 26pts/17ast effort in game 5. He also broke the record (his own record, that is) for assists in an NBA Finals with 14.0. Yeah, Kareem was fantastic and took home the Finals MVP award, but it could have just as easily gone to Magic. Kareem did, after all, play poorly in games 1 (fouled out, played 22 minutes) and 4 (only 6 rebounds, with Lakers getting out-rebounded by 10) -- the two games that the Lakers lost.

[JordansBulls]

1. Bird
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Moses
5. Jordan

Bird is a pretty clear #1 for me. Dominated the MVP vote (got all but 1 1st place vote), put up a 29/11/7, led the league in PER and WS, Celtics make the Finals and lose narrowly behind his work.

Controversial decision but I'm putting Kareem over Magic this year. Everything to me indicates Magic has a slight edge in the Reg. season - MVP shares, PER/WS, etc. Kareem was the Finals MVP. I'm valuing that slightly over Magic's (apparent) small regular season advantage, though I'd be interested in arguments from people there at the time.

Moses put up a 25/13 on a 58 win team, finished 3rd in MVP voting and was 1st team All-NBA over Kareem, his playoff stats don't look great but Philly did alright making it to the ECF and losing to a better Celtics.

Jordan has a big 28/6/6 .60 TS%, 26 PER, 2nd overall in WS season right off the bat. Too young to put him over Moses for me and it didn't translate to wins

I think Magic and Bird have to be #1 and #2 this year. There is no way you can tell me Kareem was better than Magic this season.

[TrueLAfan]

Gotta add this...going into the playoffs, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar had played over 48000 regular season minutes. Add in Playoff minutes, and he's over 55000 minutes. To have the kind of post-season play Kareem had after that much time on the court is kind of mind-boggling. Hakeem was a shell of his former self in his final year with Toronto, especially in the playoffs. Hakeem finished his career with 50000 total minutes. Shaq can't dominate a series, much less a game, like he used to. Shaq is under 50000 career minutes. Think of how KG looked in the Finals this year. KG has about 10000 less minutes on him than Kareem had in the 1985 Finals. Even discounting his age and how much he'd played, Kareem's finals were terrific. Adding that in makes it something truly special.

I think Kareem is being overrated a bit as well. He was great in the Finals, but so was Magic.

Magic, BTW, had two triple-doubles (20pts/11reb/12ast in game 4 and 14pts/10reb/14ast in game 6), not to mention his 17pts/9reb/16ast effort in game 3 and 26pts/17ast effort in game 5. He also broke the record (his own record, that is) for assists in an NBA Finals with 14.0. Yeah, Kareem was fantastic and took home the Finals MVP award, but it could have just as easily gone to Magic. Kareem did, after all, play poorly in games 1 (fouled out, played 22 minutes) and 4 (only 6 rebounds, with Lakers getting out-rebounded by 10) -- the two games that the Lakers lost.

You're actually kind of making the case for Kareem...noting that when Kareem played poorly, the Lakers couldn't win. (And, to be honest, Kareem's Game 4 was still good--he only had 6 boards, but he had 21 points on 12 shots, and held Parish to 10 points on 4-10 shooting.) On the other hand, when Kareem played great, he carried the team--and that's what stars do. Magic was great, but I don't really remember anyone saying "Y'know, this Finals MVP could be Magic!" When you were watching, Kareem played like a man possessed. I can't put Cap over Magic overall, because I thought Magic had the better regular season. But in the finals, I think there was a very, very strong consensus that Kareem led the team and was the best player on the court.

[ElGee]

April 22-28 roundup:

PRO BASKETBALL—"It was devastating," said Portland forward Clyde Drexler after fast-breaking Los Angeles thrashed the Trail Blazers 125-101 in the opening round of their Western Conference semifinal series. Earlier in the week the Lakers swept Phoenix from the playoffs, while Portland eliminated Dallas 3-1. Blazer forward Mychal Thompson said, "Playing the Mavericks is like playing chess. The Lakers are like the 100-yard dash." Also in the West, Houston and Utah split their first four games before the Jazz won the series final 104-97 (page 22). Utah will now face Denver, which also needed five games to oust San Antonio. Back East, Bulls guard Michael Jordan has been sporting some fancy footwear but not the glass slipper Chicago needed; Milwaukee overpowered the Bulls 105-97 on Friday to win their series 3-1. Philadelphia eliminated Washington 3-1 before routing Milwaukee 127-105 in their first East semifinal match. With Boston forward Larry Bird sidelined with an elbow injury, Cleveland won Game 3 105-98—the Cavaliers' first win in their last 17 games against the Celtics. Bird returned for Game 4, scored 34 points, and the Cavs were dead. "I was so sky high, I didn't even think about my elbow," said Bird, who averaged 35 points-per-game against the Cavaliers. On Sunday the defending champion Celtics beat Detroit 133-99 in the first game in their Eastern semifinal series

April 29-May 5 Roundup:

PRO BASKETBALL—Each of the four conference semifinal matches started out a lopsided 2-0, but at week's end, only one series had been decided. In the East, Philadelphia swept Milwaukee 4-0 with a 121-112 win on Sunday (page 30). In the other Eastern Conference semifinal, Boston blew its 2-0 series lead when Detroit, behind Vinnie Johnson's spectacular 22-point fourth-quarter performance, pulled even Sunday with a 102-99 victory. The Pistons started their comeback with a physical 125-117 win on Thursday. " Detroit was feisty, and that's the name of the game in the playoffs," said Boston coach K.C. Jones. "There's nothing wrong with that." Celtic Larry Bird might not agree, though. In Tuesday's 121-114 Celtic win, Bird was floored and bloodied by a Bill Laimbeer elbow late in the third quarter; afterward, Bird exploded for 19 of his career playoff-high 42 points. "You could see it in his eyes," said Boston's M.L. Carr. "The blood motivated him." Out west, Portland broke the Lakers' six-game playoff winning streak, beating them 115-107 on Sunday, after having lost the first three. Utah dropped to 3-1 against Denver.

May 20-26 roundup:

PRO BASKETBALL—What more could a basketball fan want? East meets West; fast break against impenetrable defense; Magic versus Bird. The NBA's top two regular-season teams have survived the playoffs to reach the finals, Los Angeles for the fourth consecutive time and Boston for the third time in five years. "It's the stars versus the longshoremen," said the Celtics' Kevin McHale. "We have probably one guy who can dunk on our whole team. They've got a whole team who goes in there and flies through the air. We just grind it out." Each team wrapped up its semifinal series in five games. The Celtics edged Philadelphia 102-100 when Larry Bird stole the ball from Sixer Andrew Toney in the game's final five seconds. The Lakers blasted Denver 153-109. Nugget Alex English, the NBA's No. 5 scorer, who averaged 30.3 ppg against Los Angeles, missed the final game with a broken right thumb. And what about the upcoming rematch of last year's final? "The first of June seems to be the time we like to play basketball," said Laker coach Pat Riley. "I'm not scared," retorted Celtic forward Cedric Maxwell, "just more concerned than usual."

Moses blurb:

The Sixers will win because their center feasts on Boston. Injuries dogged Malone last season, but now he's back in MVP form, averaging 25.5 points and 13.1 rebounds. He has been particularly imposing against the Celtics (28.8 and 15.8). Meanwhile, Parish perishes against Philly, scoring six points fewer than his 17.3 season average. On Jan. 30, Malone drew nine fouls from Parish and McHale, went 16 for 16 from the line and finished with 38 points and 24 rebounds. "Moses is healthy this season," Cunningham says. "It's as simple as that

Bird blurb

The Celts will win because they have Bird, who along with Malone is the current MVP favorite. He threw in back-to-back buzzer beaters in late January, one after brushing aside the chalkboard on which Jones was designing a play that would have set up the last shot for Maxwell. It's passé to describe Bird's play—he's averaging a team-leading 27.9 points, 10.4 rebounds a game and a league-leading 45.7% from three-point range—as merely "great"; praise for him now comes in terms of the surreal. "He's so damn good he's making a farce of the game," says San Antonio assistant Scotty Robertson. Add Lil' Davey B. and the Space Kadettes in their recent release Bird Rap: "Larry, Larry Bird (Larry Bird)/His game is so well-rounded it is almost absurd."

Some Celtcs-Pistons stuff: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Writeup after Lakers won title:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Magic bouncing back:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

[Doctor MJ]

Bird is a pretty clear #1 for me. Dominated the MVP vote (got all but 1 1st place vote), put up a 29/11/7, led the league in PER and WS, Celtics make the Finals and lose narrowly behind his work.

Controversial decision but I'm putting Kareem over Magic this year. Everything to me indicates Magic has a slight edge in the Reg. season - MVP shares, PER/WS, etc. Kareem was the Finals MVP. I'm valuing that slightly over Magic's (apparent) small regular season advantage, though I'd be interested in arguments from people there at the time.

A couple things I want to mention:

-While Kareem was the best Laker in the finals, McHale was the best Celtic. Not necessarily crazy to put Kareem over Magic, but it's definitely not the case that this was Kareem & Magic vs Bird and the two stars won.

-As far as Magic vs Kareem, a key fact I think it's important to have a conclusion on is what Magic did in '86-87. When Magic took on a bigger role, and Kareem took on a smaller role, everything got better. Now, it's entirely possible to conclude that that was just due to Magic getting better and Kareem getting worse, but Magic had been a fantastic player for a long time already and when he increased his scoring he did it with a shooting efficiency significantly below what he had did in '84-85. When I consider that along with the fact that Magic had been considered the team's MVP for several years by this point, I definitely have Magic ahead of Kareem here.

[Gongxi]

On the big island through Wednesday night, on my phone, already looked at the season:

1- Larry Bird
2- Magic Johnson
3- Michael Jordan
4- Moses Malone
5- Isiah Thomas

[semi-sentient]

You're actually kind of making the case for Kareem...noting that when Kareem played poorly, the Lakers couldn't win. (And, to be honest, Kareem's Game 4 was still good--he only had 6 boards, but he had 21 points on 12 shots, and held Parish to 10 points on 4-10 shooting.) On the other hand, when Kareem played great, he carried the team--and that's what stars do. Magic was great, but I don't really remember anyone saying "Y'know, this Finals MVP could be Magic!" When you were watching, Kareem played like a man possessed. I can't put Cap over Magic overall, because I thought Magic had the better regular season. But in the finals, I think there was a very, very strong consensus that Kareem led the team and was the best player on the court.

I should have been more specific, but my response was primarily to refute Kareem ahead of Magic overall. I'm fine with Kareem being Finals MVP, but I don't think he out-played Magic to a point where he should be getting ranked higher in terms of POY. I still believe there's a case to be made for Magic due to consistency, but I certainly have no issue with Kareem getting it. He was just as (if not more, like others believe) deserving and had some very dominant performances (30pts/17reb/8ast in game 2, 26pts/14reb/7ast in game 3, 36pts/7reb/7ast in game 5).

[Manuel Calavera]

I don't like the idea of boosting Kareem up because he had played so many minutes already. It's cool that he could and should add to his legacy but it shouldn't impact POY voting.

That said, I have:

1. Bird
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Moncrief
5. Malone

I have a question though, can anyone tell me why Malone's stats dropped in the playoffs?

[semi-sentient]

^^^ I'm wondering the same thing.


Magic Faces The Music

BTW, I pulled this out of the above article (link posted earlier):

"The thing about Magic is that it's hard to tell if he's getting better, because he just does what he wants to do," says Portland guard Jim Paxson. "He can score six points and totally dominate the game, which he's done against us. Or he can decide they need points, and go out and score 39, which he's also done against us. He just reads the flow of the game and decides what he's going to do that night."

This was after Magic trashed the Blazers in 3 consecutive games (19 pts/18 ast, 13 pts/23 ast, 31 pts/13 ast).


This paragraph is very telling about the expectations from Magic:

Johnson's friend Isiah Thomas believes Magic conjures up expectations that even a name like Dr. J does not. "I hope what has happened to him never happens to me," Thomas says. "He's at the point now where he plays great, great basketball every night and it's not even noticed." Thomas considers Johnson's performance in the All-Star Game last February proof of the extra set of standards Johnson has created for himself. "He had almost the same statistics that I had the year before, and I was the MVP of that game," Thomas says. "But because it was Magic, people just kind of said, 'Ho-hum.' " Johnson finished the game with 21 points and 15 assists; Houston's Ralph Sampson, with 24 points and 10 rebounds, was named MVP.

... and how much he sacrificed so that others could get thiers:

Now Magic says that when Abdul-Jabbar retires after the 1985-86 season and the Lakers need his points, there will be more nights like the one of the sixth game in Philadelphia five years ago. "There are going to be a lot of surprised people," he says. "Right now it's important for me to be in control of our team. I enjoy my role, but it's tough because you always want to be known for all the things you can do. That time will come."

I'd encourage everyone to read those SI articles. Lots of great information, and some disturbing stuff regarding Kareem vs. Magic in their early years (ego, jealousy, etc.), as well as some juicy info involving Magic's trade demand/Westhead's firing.

[TrueLAfan]

I should have been more specific, but my response was primarily to refute Kareem ahead of Magic overall. I'm fine with Kareem being Finals MVP, but I don't think he out-played Magic to a point where he should be getting ranked higher in terms of POY. I still believe there's a case to be made for Magic due to consistency, but I certainly have no issue with Kareem getting it. He was just as (if not more, like others believe) deserving and had some very dominant performances (30pts/17reb/8ast in game 2, 26pts/14reb/7ast in game 3, 36pts/7reb/7ast in game 5).

I'm with you here. This is the period when Magic had just (slightly) surpassed Kareem as the most valuable player on the Lakers. Kareem gets some extra kick for the postseason, but not enough to put him over Magic overall, IMO.

I don't like the idea of boosting Kareem up because he had played so many minutes already. It's cool that he could and should add to his legacy but it shouldn't impact POY voting.
?

Mmmm.. I was just pointing out the uniqueness of his Finals performance when I said “Even discounting his age and how much he'd played, Kareem's finals were terrific. Adding that in makes it something truly special.” What I meant is that, on a historical scale that supersedes nominal value, what Kareem did should really be considered among the greatest Finals performances in history. It's like Jordan's Flu Game; the numbers don't get better with or without MJ illness, but the context makes the game more special. Same with Kareem's finals. It was more special, not necessarily more valuable.

But that didn't affect how I did my voting. In terms of POY, I agree with you.. Like I said, on its own merit, Kareem's record is terrific. We are talking about a guy who averaged 22-8-3 with a couple of blocks (in only 33.3 minutes per game), shot 60% from the field, and was an outstanding defender during the RS...and then put it into overdrive in the Finals to win a unanimous Finals MVP award. I bump Kareem up a spot or so for the post-season play, especially the Finals. The RS record speaks for itself.

I have a question though, can anyone tell me why Malone's stats dropped in the playoffs?

I'm going to say something that is probably unsupported by anything other than what I saw—but Moses Malone, for a couple of years, was allowed to beat up on everybody. There was a brief period where players started to get more physical again; it coincided with Moses' first couple of years in Philly. It's 100% true that Moses dismantled Kareem and the Lakers in 1983...but he was also allowed to get away with murder. Players started to fight back around 1984 and 1985. In the playoffs, two things happened to Moses.

1) Moses was pushed out of his comfort zone by physical defenders. Moses' offensive game was predicated on getting the ball near the basket. He did not have a reliable jumper. He did not have great (or even medium) range. What he had was relentless determination...and that, combined with the increased physicality of the late 1970s and early 1980s, allowed him to get a lot of offensive rebounds, shots near the basket, and tons of fouls which sent him to the line. When he was pushed away from the hoop—by the type of play that he helped spawn—he lost some of his effectiveness. That's what Parish and McHale did in the 1985 EC finals. It hurt Moses more than it might have hurt another player because, in a sense, Moses was a one-trick pony. He scored the majority of his points at the line and on put backs. When he got boxed out or kept away from the basket, it got harder for him to get rebounds and in-close shots, and his shooting percentages dropped. And he didn't have passing skills to compensate.
2) Charles Barkley. Barkley could rebound as well as Moses—but he also could pass better and had more range. I remember a Sports Illustrated article toward the end of the 1985 season that basically said, “The Sixers are winning because Barkley is stepping up.” But his game clashed with Malone's, and Malone lacked secondary skills to compensate and help the team.

It is going to be interesting to see how people perceive Malone in the next few years. Like I said, in many ways, Moses was a limited player. He did not have a lot of fundamental skills in certain areas; he had real flaws in his game. But Moses was limited like Dwight Howard is limited offensively; you knew his flaws, but you had no way of dealing with his strengths. I always laugh when people say, “Dwight Howard doesn't have any offensive skills—he relies totally on his athleticism!” Yeah, the poor bastard...he can do is score 20 a game on 60% shooting, and go to the line 10 times a game. It's like Nolan Ryan...you knew he was going to throw the heater. Didn't mean you could get a piece of it. I think a lot of how people look at Moses will hinge on how people think of his defense...which we'll probably talk about when we get into his really good years.

[KING JAMES1978]

Some of the best scoring performances 1984-1985 regular season.
Bernard King-New York vs. New Jersey-25/12/84=60 pts
Larry Bird-Boston vs. Atlanta-12/03/85=60 pts
Purvis Short-Golden State vs. New Jersey-17/11/84=59 pts
Kevin McHale-Boston vs. Detroit-03/03/85=56 pts
Bernard King-New York vs. New Jersey-16/02/85=55 pts
Bernard King-New York vs. Indiana-24/11/84=52 pts
Moses Malone-Philadelphia vs. Detroit-14/11/84=51 pts
Mark Aguirre-Dallas vs. Philadelphia-28/01/85=49 pts
Michael Jordan-Chicago vs. Detroit-12/02/85=49 pts
Purvis Short-Golden State vs. Portland-11/11/84=48 pts
Larry Bird-Boston vs. Atlanta-09/12/84=48 pts
Larry Bird-Boston vs. Portland-27/01/85=48 pts

Some of the best scoring performances 1984-1985 playoffs.
Rolando Blackman-Dallas vs. Portland-18/04/85=43 pts
Larry Bird-Boston vs. Detroit-08/05/85=43 pts
Larry Bird-Boston vs. Detroit-20/04/85=42 pts
Rolando Blackman-Dallas vs. Portland-20/04/85=41 pts
George Gervin-San Antonio vs. Denver-20/04/85=41 pts
Terry Cummings-Milwaukee vs. Philadelphia-30/04/85=41 pts


Bird imo the best player in the game 1984-1985.

[ronnymac2]

I watched a few games of the 85 finals a few days ago. Some observations:

James Worthy was the primary defender on Larry Bird. The Lakers gave Worthy a lot of help- it almost looked like how the Lakers played Kevin Durant this year...maybe not quite as good or quite as much, but similar in terms of really trying to support Worthy and not give Bird a lot of space. Worthy actually does a fantastic job. A lot of people say Cooper defended Bird the best, and the announcers frequently cite that Bird did indeed say this, but Worthy spends much time on him. Like, the majority of the time. And defends him well.

Magic actually guards Bird sometimes, too. It's the best defense I've ever seen from Magic. He boxes out Larry well.

Magic's defense was actually very good imo. Magic was the rover. He was the designated double teamer on post up players like Mchale and Parish. An underrated part of Magic's defense was his ability to defend post-entry passes merely with his height. I saw him create a turnover this way. The smaller guard (actually, I believe it was 6-4 DJ...not so small) had to lob it over his height, making the pass softer and loftier. That's valuable. Especially against a big team like Boston. You don't want to give them direct passes into their finishers.

Bird doesn't look right to me. He looks right in spurts. But he doesn't look like the Bird I've become accustomed to when I watch old games. The Lakers are playing excellent defense, but....I do believe injuries were affecting him in the finals. He isn't the same active Bird. Still active than 90% of the players, but not the same Legend.

And yet, he posted very good numbers. And made sensational plays that only he could even think of. Even with just a good finals performance, he could be my POY this year.

Magic clearly hasn't gotten his post-up lessons from Kareem yet. He's got an underrated jumper though.

Kurt Rambis kicks ass. He's like Udonis Haslem ito effectiveness. I love those players.

Robert Parish is a very good defender. Gives you excellent rebounding, shot-blocking, length inside, and physicality.

Kareem Abdul-jabbar is a wonder to watch on offense.

Throughout the series, and specifically in game 5, Jabbar's defense on Mchale was huge. Mchale would torch anybody else with insane length and post moves- the other Laker defenders had no shot. But when Jabbar was on him, that 7'2 frame was enough to make Mchale need to go to counters- which he had plenty of- that made the Laker double teams more effective. His height and strength slowed Mchale down, and the double teams could defend him. Obviously, Mchale's poor passing made this a good strategy.

James Worthy torches Kevin Mchale. On isolation plays. I mean....anything James wants, he gets.

Michael Cooper was like Derek Fisher. Always hitting big shots off of Magic's and Kareem's passes.

Magic and Kareem had a deadly two-man game that won them the games that I watched in the fourth quarter. Their passing was beautiful. Magic is at the height of his passing abilities in the halfcourt and in transition.