Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space?

[WizStorm]

One more point: if that Arenas for Vince trade goes down, it'll also satisfy your wish for Wall to have an offensive threat to take some of the scoring responsbility off of Wall. Carter isn't chopped liver. He can still go get 18 points a night on this team.

I think it makes pretty good sense to keep Carter for the first half of the year to take some of the scoring responsbility off Wall. As Wall and Blatche continue to build confidence, we then trade Carter for expirings at the Trade Deadline and make way for the new youth era with a talented young core and an absurd amount of cap space.

Again, it's been pretty well documented that Carter is known for sulking and being a malcontent when not on a contender. And VC is certainly not a guy known for working long hours in the gym. He's just about the last veteran i'd want on the team for Wall to learn from.

On the other hand, you have Gil who should be super motivated no matter how the team is performing and will be working his hardest to repair his image and show himself as a consummate professional. Not to mention that Gil is also a fellow gym rat that that can train with Wall into the wee hours of the night.

[Mount Mutombo]

It sounds solid to me. Gilbert isn't doing much and Vince has the potential to do big thinks here in Washington.

[DCZards]

The problem is defense, not offense. I think Arenas and Wall can coexist just fine in a dual-guard offense. Heck, I think they'll be fantastic. I'm worried about defense. I don't want a 6-2 Arenas guarding SG's, and I don't want a 196 pound John Wall guarding SG's. I just don't see a compelling reason to put up with a nightly mismatch and pay $80M for it.

Defense? Isn't that where Hinrich comes in? If Wall or Gil are getting torched by the other team's SG, it should be Hiney to the rescue. Sure, it will means less minutes for Wall or Arenas that game..but who cares, if it helps us to win by playing Hiney.

[fishercob]

You make a decent point about Rip, less so about Carter. But it misses a key point.

Yes, Gil is overpaid. But he still holds the potential to be a top 25 player in the league, maybe top 15. Wall and Blatche being so underpaid (not to mention perhaps McGee, Seraphin, and maybe Booker) allow us to the luxury of overpaying Gil to see if he can realize his potential. If he does.

Rip and Carter don't possess that potential even if they may be better "fits." So unless unloading Arenas increases our chances at landing another stud, he shouldn't be traded. Maybe it increases our chances via the draft lotto, but we know all too well that that is hardly anything to plan on. And whomever trades for Gil right now isn't sending a pick or prospect our way that has legit All-Star potential. Gil has that potential, so we should keep him. Not to mention that we're still going to have plenty of cap room to stockpile additional assets.

[WizStorm]

I would argue that switching Gil to pure PG was playing him out of position. For years, everyone though Gil with a tall PG would be the ideal complement. Now, for some reason all of a sudden Gil is viewed strictly as scoring PG that has to have the ball in hands to succeed. I hardly think that is the case.

The problem is defense, not offense. I think Arenas and Wall can coexist just fine in a dual-guard offense. Heck, I think they'll be fantastic. I'm worried about defense. I don't want a 6-2 Arenas guarding SG's, and I don't want a 196 pound John Wall guarding SG's. I just don't see a compelling reason to put up with a nightly mismatch and pay $80M for it.

Arenas is a good player, but at $20M a year, he's overpaid no matter how you slice. Maybe it would make sense for the right team in the right situation with the right personnel to go ahead and overpay for his services. But that team is clearly not the Washington Wizards. We don't need a 29-year-old star. We don't need another PG. And we don't need to be paying somebody $20M a year for the next 4 years while we're in the midst of a rebuild.

I would be more concerned about defense if the Wizards were actual going to be contenders next season. But let's face it, they aren't. However, nothing is going to pump up confidence in John Wall and rehabilitate Gil's value than some high octane offense and sportscenter highlights. You don't think a GM would see the gawdy offensive numbers and decide to take a chance on Gil? Hell, it certainly worked with Antawn Jamison.

[fishercob]

I would argue that switching Gil to pure PG was playing him out of position. For years, everyone though Gil with a tall PG would be the ideal complement. Now, for some reason all of a sudden Gil is viewed strictly as scoring PG that has to have the ball in hands to succeed. I hardly think that is the case.

The problem is defense, not offense. I think Arenas and Wall can coexist just fine in a dual-guard offense. Heck, I think they'll be fantastic. I'm worried about defense. I don't want a 6-2 Arenas guarding SG's, and I don't want a 196 pound John Wall guarding SG's. I just don't see a compelling reason to put up with a nightly mismatch and pay $80M for it.

Gil's 6'4, 215 with super long arms. Flip said himself on draft night that Gil is better suited to guard 2's than he is quick 1's because of his length (and implied he has trouble staying in front of quicker 1's).

Any team that trades for Arenas is going to have to find a "compelling reason to put up with a nightly mismatch and pay $80M for it." Gil's going to be a slow defensive "1" or a short "2" on any team.

[fishercob]

It sounds solid to me. Gilbert isn't doing much and Vince has the potential to do big thinks here in Washington.

Acquiring Vince would have nothing to do with his potential in DC. It's because he'd provided a financial relief. At 33 and in decline, Vince provides a lot less potential to complement Wall than Arenas does.

[WizarDynasty]

I'd like to add thought that arenas is pretty strong. Arenas is not a mismatch guarding shoot guard out on the perimeter. He is i long enough and quick enough to stop shooting guard dribble penetration and he is a hell of alot stronger than Nick Young. Most shooting guards most shooting guards in the league don't rely heavily on a post game and having booker as a weak side small forward with his shotblocking really covers Gil in the post with over sized shooting guards. I see booker eventually gaining the ability to knock down open threes with regularity.

[nate33]

Remember that Arenas lost a bunch of weight as part of his rehab. He wanted to get lighter so his knee would be stressed less. I don't know if he wants to go put on that weight again.

[fishercob]

Dan Steinberg throws some more water on Gil being on the first bus out of town:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcspor ... _sale.html

The day Ted Leonsis announced he was officially assuming ownership of the Wizards, he said that Gilbert Arenas would be welcomed back into the fold.

"I think it's very important that Gilbert be re-embraced as a person and as a player," the new owner said then.

At the time he said this, Arenas jerseys were still not available at the NBA Store's Web site. If you tried to customize one, the site would reject your request as unavailable, no matter what number you paired the name with. Which seemed a strange way to start re-embracing Gilbert as a person and a player. I asked Leonsis about this when he visited The Post's offices a few days later.

"I was unaware of that," Leonsis said. "He's playing for our team, we'll be selling his jersey."

Then someone else asked about the many likenesses of Gilbert that were removed from Verizon Center during the Purge.

"He's playing on our team, he'll be marketed," Leonsis said.

[RickRoll_inDC]

I've been a huge fan of Gil since the beginning, and I've been on his side throughout this whole fiasco. I didn't want to believe any rumors until I heard something from EG, Flip, or Ted and now I've heard something from all 3.

EG said something about Gilbert playing with the wizards about a month ago, Flip mentioned Wall and Arenas playing together next year, and now Ted says that. He seemed really definitive about what he was saying. Ted wants Gil back and what Ted wants, Ted gets (I hope)

I guess I'm a big advocate for Gil to stay, since in my mind, losing gil is almost as bad as if we signed LeBron.

[Benjammin]

I'm a big Gil fan and I think the media and the Wizards management blew out of proportion his transgressions. I think watching Gil and Wall together will be fascinating. I have liked Vince Carter's game in the past, but he regressed yet again last year. Here comes the "but". The risk with Gil I don't think is his play on the court or even so much his actions off the court. The biggest risk is his injury history. He is owed 80 million over the next four years. Vince is owed 17.5 million in 2010-2011 and has a $4 million buy out for 2011-2012. It would allow the Wiz to reset their cap in 2011 in time for the new collective bargaining agreement.

So my heart says keep Gil and if necessary wait for a better deal, but my head says if they can get out of Gil's deal at the cost of Vince's deal that is a logical move to make. Ultimately I would probably want to roll the dice and see how Gil does and either keep him or hope his value is higher at mid-season, but then again it's not my money.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Magic fan here,wanted to ask you guys if a VC for Arenas trade was to happen,do you think a Arenas/Dwight duo would work,considering Arenas has never played with a dominate big?

I think Arenas will be better than last year. I think if he's healthy Gil and Dwight can't help but work.

What I can't tell is if Arenas gets injured again. All bets are off if that happens.

But, assuming he stays healthy, I think Arenas is flat much better than Nelson. Arenas is a fine and willing passer. He will be helped by playing with Dwight, and Dwight will finally have a closer on his team. Yes, it would work.

[Dat2U]

I'm a big Gil fan and I think the media and the Wizards management blew out of proportion his transgressions. I think watching Gil and Wall together will be fascinating. I have liked Vince Carter's game in the past, but he regressed yet again last year. Here comes the "but". The risk with Gil I don't think is his play on the court or even so much his actions off the court. The biggest risk is his injury history. He is owed 80 million over the next four years. Vince is owed 17.5 million in 2010-2011 and has a $4 million buy out for 2011-2012. It would allow the Wiz to reset their cap in 2011 in time for the new collective bargaining agreement.

So my heart says keep Gil and if necessary wait for a better deal, but my head says if they can get out of Gil's deal at the cost of Vince's deal that is a logical move to make. Ultimately I would probably want to roll the dice and see how Gil does and either keep him or hope his value is higher at mid-season, but then again it's not my money.

I pretty much feel the same way. Although I'm pretty certain the VC deal isn't one to do. One thing that might spur me to make a deal sooner than later. Instant cap relief. If team offered to take the majority of Gil's deal with their cap space, that could be very tempting. For me, the Curry deal would be the one I would think seriously about. That trade offers some real nice savings. I'd hate to pull the trigger on it, but it would be like a get out a jail for free card. That's about as painless a trade of Gil can be. But honestly, the curiosity of seeing whether a Wall/Gil combo on the court can work is killing me. The potential for something truly special is there, but I'm coming to the realization that Wizards' management is not going to let that happen.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Wall definitely can stand to improve his advanced ballhandling skills. What better guy to teach him the tricks of the trade than Arenas whose made a career of lulling defenders to sleep & blowing by them with hestitation moves, jab steps, etc? What better guy to teach Wall how to properly use picks & screens to create space?

It's too bad we'll never see it happen.

Yeah, I'd kinda like to see it too. I'm really torn on this. The best scenario would be to give the Arenas/Wall pairing an opportunity, and then trade Arenas if it didn't work out.

I'm just not so confident that it will be easy to trade Arenas if things don't work out. For that reason, I can completely understand why management would pull the trigger on an Arenas trade now.

My 38 years of being a Bullets/Wizards fan says that trading Gil pretty much assures he's near 100% healed. Trading him to Orlando makes it a slam dunk he plays 80 games. Years of watching guys like Rasheed, Ben Wallace (immediately knew Ike Austin was a stiff and Ben would blow up), Rip Hamilton (my first spirited posts on this site had to do with me saying the Wizards didn't know what they were getting rid of for Stackhouse), Chris Webber, and Roger Mason Jr. turn out to be assets on winning teams; I'm conditioned to expect Gil turns back into a near superstar the instant the Wizards dump him.

I've been saying all along I didn't think Wall was as good as advertised. Now, you're acknowledging his turnovers, lack of advance ball handling skills, and only fair jumper. That's what made me think he's not a go to scorer or a pure point. He will excel in transition but I don't think he's a superstar. Very athletic dude, yes. So is Beaubois. So is Westbrook. So is Rose. That Wall goes end to end faster, has far greater hops combined with reach and therefore gets up higher, has longer arms for steals; is all impressive.

My gut feel is there are guys like Tywon Lawson and Darren Collison that can run a team very well--even better than Wall. Much better passers. There are guys like Deron Williams who's a better floor general. Chris Paul is a monster of an athlete moving laterally. He's not as tall as Wall but he's a far superior shooter and passer. Rose is an explosive scorer. Rondo is a dynamic rebounder and a great distributer.

My way of thinking says Wall might not be as great as he's supposed to be. IT WOULD BE BETTER to keep Gil around a while with him. In time, I'm sure Wall will at least be far better than average.

I'm not ready to say he's a superstar for sure.

[willbcocks]

If Wall sucks, that's even more reason to trade Gil--this team will be bereft of talent and have no window for competing while Gil's still young enough. You could go for a snyderesque win now policy with Gil, Wall, and a max free agent next year or the year after, but with a **** Wall, nothing we can do will make our team good enough to get out of the first round of the playoffs. The win-now is strong with you CCJ.

Are there any good 2year plus plans that involve keeping Gil? I have not heard them. The only justifications I've heard are about Gil's ability, which I'm not even sold on because of his defense. Dude was never a max player anyway. If we get the chance to hit reset on that contract before a new CBA comes out, we gotta take it for the long term good of the franchise.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Other than his jumper, Wall's biggest weakness may be his advanced ballhandling skills. Right now his game is based on pure speed and just blowing by people. He lacks a certain craftiness to his game that could really take him to the next level.

I'd bet my house on Arenas being gone. If not by the end of July then by training camp. I have no evidence of this, but I think some folks in the front office feelings are still hurt by the gun incident & the fallout thereafter (see the hit piece by John Mitchell weeks back). My belief is that while Leonsis is ambivalent on dealing Arenas, he's allowing Ernie to make the call. And Ernie & much of the old guard, likely wants Arenas on the first ticket out of town.

I agree, 100%, Dat.

EG and Gil aren't ever gonna be hunky dory. I don't think Gil and Wall will ever be on the court together as Wizards. Gil's gone IMO.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Nate - I don't think anyone would sign Arenas to a 4 year 80 million dollar deal. However, that's not the situation. My belief is that he should finally be healthy two years after his last knee injury and regardless of cap space, I don't truly believe that there's anyone we will realistically be able to acquire that can help us more than a motivated Gilbert Arenas. He may be overpaid, but by how much is really the question?

In my mind the majority of the "all-stars" in this league are overpaid. I'd love to have Wade/James(choke)/Nowitski etc but once you get past them, there's no one on the market who is worth even 75-80% of the full max deal but many of them will get paid like it regardless. Bosh is the only other guy I would normally consider paying but with Blatche signed at 3 mill per year, I have no interest in Bosh for the max.

I'd rather take my chances that either Gil will end up being worth most of his contract or at the very least that he will generate much more in trade value by actually playing for us rather than us dumping him for expirings just to get out of his contract.

Cap space is great but just look at NY as an example of why its fools gold. They are going to end up missing out on the big targets and then they will have to overpay for Joe Johnson/Amare/Boozer just to have something to show for it. I'll take the bird in hand even though I recognize that I'm probably in the minority with that view.

I agree with you on Gil.

Not only that, but I think with Gilbert this team can compete much better, and could well sneak in to the eighth spot. I believe the intensity from the bigs and the skill level from the Gs should make this a pretty good team--with Gil.

I'd rather see the Wizards win games with Gilbert and Wall than have him lose a ton of games early out in his career.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

If Wall sucks, that's even more reason to trade Gil--this team will be bereft of talent and have no window for competing while Gil's still young enough. You could go for a snyderesque win now policy with Gil, Wall, and a max free agent next year or the year after, but with a **** Wall, nothing we can do will make our team good enough to get out of the first round of the playoffs. The win-now is strong with you CCJ.

Are there any good 2year plus plans that involve keeping Gil? I have not heard them. The only justifications I've heard are about Gil's ability, which I'm not even sold on because of his defense. Dude was never a max player anyway. If we get the chance to hit reset on that contract before a new CBA comes out, we gotta take it for the long term good of the franchise.

I'm almost 50. I have seen this team only win one playoff series the past 20+ years.
If EG had done what I wanted, and not resigned Gil when Arenas opted out injured, and not signed Jamison, either; they could have rebuilt 3 years ago. Might have had a player like Durant or Rose on the roster on a rookie deal, too.

I want to win now, damnit! Yep, willb, you're right. I'm getting older and older and this team still sucks. Plus, I'm tired of all the losing. That 19-63 season still bothers me because of the payroll and moves EG made for Pollin (apparently).

[willbcocks]

Even if EG had only gotten the Stephen Curry instead of useless timberwolves thing right, imagine: Wall and Curry teaming up at the guards. That would have been beautiful.