Retro POY '84-85 (Voting Complete)

[ronnymac2]

My contenders will be Isiah, Magic, Bird, KAJ, Moncrief, King, English, and Moses.

Jordan and Olajuwon had all-time rookie seasons, but.....I gave Shaq, Duncan, and Robinson the treatment in their historic rookie seasons. I most likely will not have either Dream or Air in my top five.

[Manuel Calavera]

My contenders will be Isiah, Magic, Bird, KAJ, Moncrief, King, English, and Moses.

Jordan and Olajuwon had all-time rookie seasons, but.....I gave Shaq, Duncan, and Robinson the treatment in their historic rookie seasons. I most likely will not have either Dream or Air in my top five.

You're going to give Wilt his due though...or else.

[semi-sentient]

Follow this link to find all the games for the 1985 NBA Finals: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... s+lal&aq=f

[ronnymac2]

My contenders will be Isiah, Magic, Bird, KAJ, Moncrief, King, English, and Moses.

Jordan and Olajuwon had all-time rookie seasons, but.....I gave Shaq, Duncan, and Robinson the treatment in their historic rookie seasons. I most likely will not have either Dream or Air in my top five.

You're going to give Wilt his due though...or else.

Good chance. You really need to do something spectacular your rookie season. Like, extraordinary type of stuff. I haven't looked at Wilt's rookie season, but there is a good chance his numbers will be so mind-boggling compared to anybody else that I'll include him. I believe he put up 37/27....which is pretty good.

I do have a book that chronicled WIlt and Russell, so if I can find it, I could re-read the parts about their rookie seasons. That'd help.

Semi- TjHunt's collection is likely the material behind this project so far. Haha He's got everything.

[JordansBulls]

My contenders will be Isiah, Magic, Bird, KAJ, Moncrief, King, English, and Moses.

Jordan and Olajuwon had all-time rookie seasons, but.....I gave Shaq, Duncan, and Robinson the treatment in their historic rookie seasons. I most likely will not have either Dream or Air in my top five.

Don't see how you won't consider MJ, he became the first player to lead a team in Points, Rebounds, Assists and steals in the same season and was only 2nd to Bird in Total Win Shares for the Season and PER. Basically meaning Bird was the only player who out produced him production wise on the season.
I'd say that gives him top 5 quite easily.

[Manuel Calavera]

My contenders will be Isiah, Magic, Bird, KAJ, Moncrief, King, English, and Moses.

Jordan and Olajuwon had all-time rookie seasons, but.....I gave Shaq, Duncan, and Robinson the treatment in their historic rookie seasons. I most likely will not have either Dream or Air in my top five.

Don't see how you won't consider MJ, he became the first player to lead a team in Points, Rebounds, Assists and steals in the same season and was only 2nd to Bird in Total Win Shares for the Season and PER. Basically meaning Bird was the only player who out produced him production wise on the season.
I'd say that gives him top 5 quite easily.

He'd be top 5 if there weren't 5 players more deserving. And there are.

[JordansBulls]

My contenders will be Isiah, Magic, Bird, KAJ, Moncrief, King, English, and Moses.

Jordan and Olajuwon had all-time rookie seasons, but.....I gave Shaq, Duncan, and Robinson the treatment in their historic rookie seasons. I most likely will not have either Dream or Air in my top five.

Don't see how you won't consider MJ, he became the first player to lead a team in Points, Rebounds, Assists and steals in the same season and was only 2nd to Bird in Total Win Shares for the Season and PER. Basically meaning Bird was the only player who out produced him production wise on the season.
I'd say that gives him top 5 quite easily.

He'd be top 5 if there weren't 5 players more deserving. And there are.

Like who? Moncrief definitely wasn't better. Kareem is borderline.

Those guys didn't even lead their own teams in both PER and WS and the next guy in line had just as much production as them.
Cummings was probably just as good as Moncrief if not better.

Magic was definitely better than Kareem as well, he led in both PER and WS.

Im saying Bird and Magic should be 1 and 2 regardless, but after that Jordan should definitely be in the top 5.

[Mean_Streets]

1. Larry Bird
2. Magic Johnson
3. Isiah Thomas
4. Michael Jordan
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

[ElGee]

1. Larry Bird
2. Magic Johnson
3. Isiah Thomas
4. Michael Jordan
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Why Isiah at No. 3?

[Warspite]

Isiah not getting any love and its pretty sad. 21ppg and 13apg just isnt what it used to be.

[semi-sentient]

His .529 TS% is also pretty sad. Comparing him to all the other candidates, that really sticks out like a sore thumb. I have him as a candidate, but I can't make a case for him above any of the guys in my top 5.

[lorak]

1. Bird
2. Magic
3. Jordan
4. Moses
5. Moncrief

[Dr Positivity]

Alright I'm changing my vote to:

1. Bird
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Moses
5. Jordan

[ElGee]

Hoping to find some time to re-watch some of the Finals and the Lakers-Blazers. Here's what I've been able to see from available stuff out there on other games/series:

Celtics-Sixers Game 5 second half:

Moses averaged 19-13 on 42% shooting in first 4 games. Think he had 13-16 or something like that in G5, still struggling. Parish and co. are giving him a hard time. TrueLA had a nice breakdown of Malone's limitations.

Moses is fouled by McHale underneath for 2 Fts. Bird banks a catch and shoot off glass from the top. Moses is blocked by McHale next trip. Bird posts and misses a fade on Jones. Moses grabs on offensive board after Toney is swarmed and missed. Moses is fouled for another 2 then. Bird hits a J at the other end to take the lead – 17 in the game for him at that point. Next trip Bird makes a nice quick pass under to McHale's who is fouled. Moses misses in lane against a double w 2:30 left, Celtics up 2. Bird misses a lefty runner against clock and McHale grabs the board over Moses and is fouled. Bird misses a fade w/33 left and Ainge keeps it alive. Bird misses a runner, then strips Erving for the win.

Celtics-Pistons Game 5 second half:

Bird headfakes the crap out of Tripucka, then airballs from 3 feet! Isiah grabs an assist shuffling to Tripucka off a curl who hits the J. Other end Bird with another crazy upfake and then passes around his man in the air to a cutting Ainge who misses an open DJ (for layup). Pace of the game lightning fast. Isiah hits 2nd J of the quarter over Ainge from 18. Bird with an assist, making quick extra pass to open DJ for J. Isiah misses 22 foot J over McHale on iso. Bird with great O-Reb putback abusing Tribucka underneath with positioning, strength and size. Bird misses J on screen, gets own rebound and misses running scoop. Bird was 7-12 in first half with 3 rebounds. Isiah at other end drives on Ainge, gets bumped by help (Carr) and scores+1. 7 of 14 in 3rd for Isiah so far. McHale draws a foul off ball. Bird with a spin and scoop against help on other side +1. Broadcasters comment on how Bird is slow and can't jump but still finds a way. Bird with 5 boards in 3rd. Isiah challenges McHale on drive now and misses runner. Bird misses a short turnaround over Benson. McHale misses over Isiah on a switch – payback! Isiah goes screen and roll w Laimbeer and drives on McHale on switch but misses at rim. Bird missed a jumper at end of clock on covered catch and shoot. Bird with a little backdoor off a screen for a layup.

4th Quarter – Bird upfakes, does the Kobe/Pierce move to draw a foul and they call it a foul...ON the floor?? Next play Bird runs PnR and hits Parish underneath for a dunk. Textbook. Next trip Bird drives right, pulls up and scores on Benson but they call a foul on floor (again, this would easily be in act today). So Bird just catches inbounds, turns and scores over man. Bird is incredibly aggressive right now. Isiah misses a running left-hander on baseline. Next trip Isiah drives into line on iso and scores over Buckner. Bird off ball, catches baseline, drives and finishes underneath. Isiah rolls in a pullup from 18 at other end. Bird another ridiculous offensive board, quickly snatching it around Curetan. Bird misses deep J off that curl handoff w McHale he loves. Bird drives left into 3 players and scores +1. Next trip Bird draws Isiah' (dubious) fifth foul on drive. Then Bird posts Curetan and scores on a layup on feed. Bird then misses an open catch and shoot. McHale actually passes out of a double – hits Ainge for a jumper. Curetan misses a spinner on Bird as he bothers it. Commentator says “Bird is everywhere.” Bird misses leaner on post up over Tripucka. Bird posts again and scores in lane. Next trip Bird drives around man and scores. 13 of 39 in 4th for Bird. Isiah misses another jumper with McHale on him on switch. Microwave is only one cooking for Detroit. Bird upfakes, spins, draws double but misses floater on run. Bird soolid D on Tripucka post who misses in lane. Next trip Bird iso at top, drops jumper on Roundfields head. Bird another d board, great pass in transition to DJ for open score. Color commentator when he makes pass on break: “oooohhh.” Bird is indeed everywhere - a huge half. Isiah gets by man but Bird there for help D – Thomas misses shot in lane on Bird. 6 Tos for Bird in game btw. Ainge misses an open J setup by Bird off curl. Tripucka fakes Bird at other end and scores. Interesting note at end – Isiah SHOVES Ainge on last foul OB very hard with extended arms. Just a regular foul. Ah, the 80s.

Some things that stand out: McHale is sort of a defensive gumby – he uses his long arms and stays with perimeter plays amazingly well for a 6-11 guy. He did well containing Isiah on switches. McHale actually made the "correct" pass out of double teams a few times -- he'll do that -- but he's not a great passer and his assists numbers are so low because he basically wants to eat his cakes when he gets it and go to work. Hard to blame him given his skills and the makeup of the team.

Bird, as always, so active off ball. When Boston doesn't post McHale, they run so much stuff for Bird off curls and screens and posts and isos. Parish in the post or Ainge off screens seem like tertiary options, at least when Bird is aggressive mode. Bird is always looking for someone to box out. The thing that is impressive on defense is his solid positioning and anticipation on rotations or jumping passes.

Isiah is tricky to judge here because I don't think his offensive system is that great, at least not against Boston. They were trying to run a lot of high PnR action, but no pick and pops with Laimbeer and no hard rolling action off it. Yet Isiah still gets in the lane a lot and he makes difficult shots. He creates a lot of his own offense too, makes solid passes, but can take bad shots. I think that's where the low TS% comes from more than anything. Even in a quick-paced game, there were a few Detroit possessions that just stalled (one was a clock violation).

--

Bucks-Bulls series

There are 4 highlights of the games, each containing a large number of possessions but unfortunately highlights. Here are my impressions:

MJ had 23-4-10 in G1. Squid guarded Jordan a LOT. MJ's doing well with PnR action. On one play, MJ was caught in air awkwardly in semi-transition and turned it over. I don't see this type of play during the rest of MJ's career. Jordan had 21 in the first half in G2 but struggled in the second half. Statline was something around 27-4-11. MJ did attack Squid and get by him or score in the lane in 1 v 1 situations. Jordan was just too quick and explosive.

Squid had some nice finishes in transition. Threw a nice alley-oop pass. Did much better on MJ than any of his teammates. He just had a nice feel for every game in the series, or at least that's how it came across in the cuts.

G3 video claims MJ went 35-8-7 on 13-20 shooting, 4 steals and 3 blocks. Wow (if correct). Squid made a HUGE spinning J late in this game to put Bucks up 1. MJ hit the big one to go up 108-107 Bulls with 22 left. 17 in 2nd half for MJ here. Jordan's numbers through first 3 games: 29.3 - 5.3 - 9.7 45.2% FG.

At this point, I see a hyper-athletic Jordan with a solid midrange game. There are flashes of brilliance, such as the spin move where he left Moncrief whiffing at air in G4, or the ridiculous behind the back dribble to split Moncrief and Lister's double team clear away. Dude was drawing fouls at halfcout in these games. He attacks the basic like a maniac in this series, nearly fouling Squid out of game 3 and attempting 20 FT's in game 4. He took 58 FTs in 4 games in this series, well up from his regular season rate. He's also creating a lot of offense for a weak offensive cast, driving and dishing or kicking. The high assists are no fluke, and similarly his RS ast% is easily his highest until 1988.

The stats show a superstar (Jordan led the NBA in points in 1985), as does the Bulls improvement (a similar team goes +4 in SRS and over +6 in ORtg) and concurrently I see someone affecting the game in big ways on tape.

[TMACFORMVP]

Bird and Magic are the clear top 2 IMO - in that order.

After that, you have Moses, Jordan, Kareem, Moncrief, Isiah, and English. King doesn't make the cut because of his horrible team record, similar case with guys like Nique.

I'd take Kareem over Moses. Kareem wasn't as good in the regular season, but it should count for something that he was both the better defender and passer from the low block. That helps fill the gap between the two in the regular season, and Kareem easily pulls ahead in their respective play in the post-season, Moses underachieving with poor defense and inefficient offense, while Kareem was consistent throughout the playoffs, and dominant in the finals (26/10 on 60%).

Jordan is interesting, he's just a rookie, so he clearly wasn't as refined in the other aspects of his game as he would be later in his career, but he was still 28/6/6 and led his team to the playoffs. Granted they were under .500, it was the playoffs regardless, but they lost. In that scenario, we're looking at an inexperienced but spectacular rookie that put up great stats, but eventually lost in the first round. From my previous voting, depending on the strength of the year, that might not warrant a top five selection this year.

Moncrief was one of my favorites. 22/5/5 with elite defense, but got swept in the second round by the Sixers. It's an interesting debate with he and Jordan though. Jordan was statistically better, but Moncrief at this stage was a much better defender. I mean that Bucks team was #1 in opponents points given up and FG%. And the Bucks beat the Bulls (better team I understand, Cummings, Pressey etc.), but counts for SOMETHING. I'd still maybe lean Jordan..

English might make my top 5, he was great in the regular season, 28/6/4 on 52% en route to 52 wins (2nd best record in the West). He was even better in the playoffs, nearly 30/7/4.5 on 54% from the field, and the Nuggets made it to the WCF where they'd lose to the eventual champs, the Lakers.

Isiah did his thing too, a team with virtually no three point shooting, Isiah was able to dish out 14 assists, and score 21 points per game. That Pistons team made a combined 16 threes outside of Isiah for the ENTIRE season. Granted the three wasn't a large part of the game at the time, that's still a pretty staggering stat, because most of the top offensive teams had at least one decent floor spacer (Cooper, Scott for Lakers, or Evans for the Nuggets). It's pretty amazing he was able to pull down 4.5 boards per game as well. In the playoffs, he did 24/5/11 and upped his efficiency, shooting 50% from the floor. Definitely another strong candidate.

Going to refrain from voting - haven't read the thread yet, will do so later, and hopefully formulate a definitive top five.

1 - Larry Bird
2 - Magic Johnson
3 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4 - Moses Malone
5 - Alex English

[penbeast0]

1. Magic
2. Bird
3. Moncrief -- 3rd best team after top 2, scored less than Jordan but more efficienctly with better defense leading a much better team then beat up on Jordan offensively in the playoffs (.687 ts!)
4. Moses -- slipped in playoffs but regular season was just a beast
5. Kareem

[semi-sentient]

Man, Kareem is truly a remarkable player. I had a chance to rewatch game 5 last night and he was fantastic. You'd never know he was 37 by the way he moves up and down the court, and at times explodes to the basket. That sky hook is money, and his mid-range game was on as well.

Worthy tore it up in the low post, and I don't think he missed from mid-range either.

Magic was running and gunning as usual. He would have probably had 25 assists in this game had Rambis and Kareem not missed so many easy buckets in transition.

As ronnymac mentioned earlier, Worthy was the primary defender on Bird. I wonder why all those older articles talk so much about Cooper on Bird, at least for this series? Cooper was great on Bird when Worthy went to the bench, but James was doing a good job on him and was on him almost exclusively. Bird most definitely didn't look like himself though. He looked like he was just going through the motions.

Kupchak sighting. Got an offensive rebound, then hit a fadeaway jumper over Bird.

McHale was awesome. Totally carried the team in the 1st half. He's the guy that made the Celtics so tough, and you can see why as he gets into it with Kareem, Cooper, and Rambis -- in the 1st half alone. Heh. DJ looked great as well.

[Minge]

Follow this link to find all the games for the 1985 NBA Finals:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=1985+bos+lal&aq=f

I think the most interesting aspect of the 1985 Finals were the special reports that CBS aired during Gm 4 and Gm 5 of how both teams scouted opponents; perspective of how that aspect of the game has improved.

Lakers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70uvIOlTGRw (@5:05)
Celtics: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxVZkVBj2rU

Boston 148, Los Angeles 114

1. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 1 part 1/12
2. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 1 part 2/12
3. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 1 part 3/12
4. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 1 part 4/12
5. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 1 part 5/12
6. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 1 part 6/12
7. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 1 part 7/12
8. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 1 part 8/12
9. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 1 part 9/12
10. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 1 part 10/12
11. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 1 part 11/12
12. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 1 part 12/12

Los Angeles 109, Boston 102

1. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 2 part 1/12
2. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 2 part 2/12
3. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 2 part 3/12
4. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 2 part 4/12
5. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 2 part 5/12
6. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 2 part 6/12
7. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 2 part 7/12
8. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 2 part 8/12
9. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 2 part 9/12
10. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 2 part 10/12
11. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 2 part 11/12
12. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 2 part 12/12

Los Angeles 136, Boston 111

1. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 3 part 1/12
2. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 3 part 2/12
3. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 3 part 3/12
4. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 3 part 4/12
5. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 3 part 5/12
6. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 3 part 6/12
7. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 3 part 7/12
8. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 3 part 8/12
9. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 3 part 9/12
10. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 3 part 10/12
11. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 3 part 11/12
12. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 3 part 12/12

Boston 107, Los Angeles 105

1. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 4 part 1/12
2. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 4 part 2/12
3. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 4 part 3/12
4. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 4 part 4/12
5. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 4 part 5/12
6. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 4 part 6/12
7. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 4 part 7/12
8. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 4 part 8/12
9. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 4 part 9/12
10. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 4 part 10/12
11. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 4 part 11/12
12. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 4 part 12/12

Los Angeles 120, Boston 111

1. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 5 part 1/12
2. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 5 part 2/12
3. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 5 part 3/12
4. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 5 part 4/12
5. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 5 part 5/12
6. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 5 part 6/12
7. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 5 part 7/12
8. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 5 part 8/12
9. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 5 part 9/12
10. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 5 part 10/12
11. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 5 part 11/12
12. 1985 NBA Finals: Celtics at Lakers, Gm 5 part 12/12

Los Angeles 111, Boston 100

1. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 6 part 1/12
2. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 6 part 2/12
3. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 6 part 3/12
4. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 6 part 4/12
5. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 6 part 5/12
6. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 6 part 6/12
7. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 6 part 7/12
8. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 6 part 8/12
9. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 6 part 9/12
10. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 6 part 10/12
11. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 6 part 11/12
12. 1985 NBA Finals: Lakers at Celtics, Gm 6 part 12/12

[semi-sentient]

+1

[sp6r=underrated]

Great find Minge on how teams scouted their opponents. + 1 for Riley, negative -1,000,000 for the Celtics in this area