Joe Johnson trade with Dallas

[theatlfan]

it is good that Dallas fans think that way, because nobody in the NBA values Dampier

Haywood and Beaubois are the only two tradeable assets the Mavs have.

Marion and Kidd and Butler are old

Terry is a chucker who is just a product of the system

Dampier is another overpaid 7 footer

Dampier is defiantly not worth the cap the Hawks would give up if they took him. John Salmons, Wesley Matthews, and Haywood are alot better than Dampier, so it would just be dumb to take Eric and not sign better talent in Salmons, Matthews, and Haywood.

might as well just let the Mavs be stuck with Dampier and watch Dirk leave and join Lebron and D'Antoni in New York.

Gotta admit I don't understand this post at all. Dampier's contract is not guaranteed - it's almost as good as having pure cap space. DAL can trade his contract and the receiving team can just cut him and receive all the cap space back. All that's missing is getting the TPE.

Haywood is a UFA who is expected to receive around the MLE.

Dampier is Dallas' most versatile and valuable trade chip going into the off-season. The only way Cuban sacrifices that chip is if he is certain his top targets Lebron/Wade etc. have decided to sign elsewhere. At that point I agree Dampier for Johnson trade discussions could and probably would come into play.

Would any team in their right mind go after JJ without having felt out Lebron, Wade, or Bosh? Even Amare, Boozer, and Gay? We realize that JJ is prolly 7th on most people's FA list, but he's also our AS. We would need value to get him - moreso than the cap space that was more valuable last week than it will be 2 weeks from now.

[michaellam_1986]

Fellow ATL fans, I would like to say that JJ is most likely to leave ATL for nothing. Considering his performance in the playoff, it is NOWHERE near the level of LBJ/Wade/CB4. Therefore, I dont think you can obtain anything more than some raw young talents/picks/expirings.

From the Dallas side, we would give only one large expiring contract & picks/cash consideration for JJ. Therefore, it is either DUST/Butler & DAL 2011 pick for JJ.

[zzmav]

Dampier is Dallas' most versatile and valuable trade chip going into the off-season. The only way Cuban sacrifices that chip is if he is certain his top targets Lebron/Wade etc. have decided to sign elsewhere. At that point I agree Dampier for Johnson trade discussions could and probably would come into play.

Would any team in their right mind go after JJ without having felt out Lebron, Wade, or Bosh? Even Amare, Boozer, and Gay? We realize that JJ is prolly 7th on most people's FA list, but he's also our AS. We would need value to get him - moreso than the cap space that was more valuable last week than it will be 2 weeks from now.

Great post, TheAtlFan. I understand Atl would want some value back in return. Hopefully Dallas and Atlanta will be able to work something out.

Just out of curiosity, how receptive would Atlanta fans be to Haywood? He's one of the best defensive 7 foot centers in the league and always does a respectable job against Dwight Howard. It seems like he'd be a great fit in Atl and allow Horford to move to his natural 4 position. A Haywood / Butler trade would supplement Johnson's leaving with a true starting center up front in Haywood and scoring on the wing with Butler along with his pretty large expiring that may open up additional options at the trade deadline for Atl. This would be a little more difficult to work out since it's two S&T's going down in one deal, but essentially it would take signing Haywood to a $10m contract (years would be negotiated by Atl).

[theatlfan]

Fellow ATL fans, I would like to say that JJ is most likely to leave ATL for nothing. Considering his performance in the playoff, it is NOWHERE near the level of LBJ/Wade/CB4. Therefore, I dont think you can obtain anything more than some raw young talents/picks/expirings.

From the Dallas side, we would give only one large expiring contract & picks/cash consideration for JJ. Therefore, it is either DUST/Butler & DAL 2011 pick for JJ.

This is one of the prevailing attitudes that I just don't understand. No, I don't think we'd get "fair value" but what is "fair value"? It's much more than some cap space and a late 1st, that's for sure. I mean why help out DAL by gifting them a player for a contract they're about to burn and JJ in getting an extra $20 mil? For a late 1st? No, I'd simply need more to do that. As far as I'm concerned, JJ can sign elsewhere and leave us with nothing before I'd do that.

Dampier is Dallas' most versatile and valuable trade chip going into the off-season. The only way Cuban sacrifices that chip is if he is certain his top targets Lebron/Wade etc. have decided to sign elsewhere. At that point I agree Dampier for Johnson trade discussions could and probably would come into play.

Would any team in their right mind go after JJ without having felt out Lebron, Wade, or Bosh? Even Amare, Boozer, and Gay? We realize that JJ is prolly 7th on most people's FA list, but he's also our AS. We would need value to get him - moreso than the cap space that was more valuable last week than it will be 2 weeks from now.

Great post, TheAtlFan. I understand Atl would want some value back in return. Hopefully Dallas and Atlanta will be able to work something out.

Odd... I meant to say that of course you'd have checked out other FAs, but that doesn't mean we'll just gift him to whoever knocks on his door 1st either. We're not giving the prize for whoever determines that the top 6 FAs are out of your reach.

out of curiosity, how receptive would Atlanta fans be to Haywood? He's one of the best defensive 7 foot centers in the league and always does a respectable job against Dwight Howard. It seems like he'd be a great fit in Atl and allow Horford to move to his natural 4 position. A Haywood / Butler trade would supplement Johnson's leaving with a true starting center up front in Haywood and scoring on the wing with Butler along with his pretty large expiring that may open up additional options at the trade deadline for Atl. This would be a little more difficult to work out since it's two S&T's going down in one deal, but essentially it would take signing Haywood to a $10m contract (years would be negotiated by Atl).

Lots of things going on here:
1) Haywood would be a nice addition and someone we'd prolly look @ in FA.
2) No idea why Haywood would allow us to move anyone on the front court. Haywood just isn't someone that make us rethink our entire front court and start trading pieces. If Haywood adjust to what we're doing really well, then Horford would move over for 1 1/4 per game... or about what Zaza allows him to do now. Haywood would be a nice upgrade on Zaza though.
3) Haywood for $10 mil? You've got to be joking. Not even the trade you have on the table here (JJ for Haywood and Butler) would support that. More realistic, I couldn't see our FO giving Haywood a contract approaching $10 mil.
4) if we did take Haywood, what would y'all do @ C? It seems like a foregone conclusion that Dampier will be traded. So without either Dampier or Haywood, who would take the minutes @ C? Dirk?
5) I'm not against Butler by any means, but I could see us putting $15+ mil in the SF position (we've also got Marvin who'll eat up a little under $7 mil). Also, if we're trading JJ, I'd think we'd want to give Marvin a tryout with a larger role in the O. Yeah, he'll prolly bust and we'll be looking to dump him come next off-season, but it's always been a desire among ATL fans to see what he could do without JJ hogging the shots. I don't think Butler is out of the ? or anything, but I don't think we'd value Butler as much as others would.

[zzmav]

Odd... I meant to say that of course you'd have checked out other FAs, but that doesn't mean we'll just gift him to whoever knocks on his door 1st either. We're not giving the prize for whoever determines that the top 6 FAs are out of your reach.

out of curiosity, how receptive would Atlanta fans be to Haywood? He's one of the best defensive 7 foot centers in the league and always does a respectable job against Dwight Howard. It seems like he'd be a great fit in Atl and allow Horford to move to his natural 4 position. A Haywood / Butler trade would supplement Johnson's leaving with a true starting center up front in Haywood and scoring on the wing with Butler along with his pretty large expiring that may open up additional options at the trade deadline for Atl. This would be a little more difficult to work out since it's two S&T's going down in one deal, but essentially it would take signing Haywood to a $10m contract (years would be negotiated by Atl).

Lots of things going on here:
1) Haywood would be a nice addition and someone we'd prolly look @ in FA.
2) No idea why Haywood would allow us to move anyone on the front court. Haywood just isn't someone that make us rethink our entire front court and start trading pieces. If Haywood adjust to what we're doing really well, then Horford would move over for 1 1/4 per game... or about what Zaza allows him to do now. Haywood would be a nice upgrade on Zaza though.
3) Haywood for $10 mil? You've got to be joking. Not even the trade you have on the table here (JJ for Haywood and Butler) would support that. More realistic, I couldn't see our FO giving Haywood a contract approaching $10 mil.
4) if we did take Haywood, what would y'all do @ C? It seems like a foregone conclusion that Dampier will be traded. So without either Dampier or Haywood, who would take the minutes @ C? Dirk?
5) I'm not against Butler by any means, but I could see us putting $15+ mil in the SF position (we've also got Marvin who'll eat up a little under $7 mil). Also, if we're trading JJ, I'd think we'd want to give Marvin a tryout with a larger role in the O. Yeah, he'll prolly bust and we'll be looking to dump him come next off-season, but it's always been a desire among ATL fans to see what he could do without JJ hogging the shots. I don't think Butler is out of the ? or anything, but I don't think we'd value Butler as much as others would.

I don't watch many Hawks games but from I have seen it looks like Horford would have the opportunity to be most productive at the 4. Haywood is a clear upgrade over Zaza and would certainly allow you to move your front court around and at the very least would offer a lot of versatility in the looks Atlanta can throw out on the court.

Take a look at what top centers in this league (who aren't on their rookie deals) are getting paid and then tell me I'm joking. Haywood's market value is approximately $8-$10m. That amount over 4 seasons is not unreasonable for a 31year old starting caliber 7 foot center in the NBA.

If Dallas traded Haywood they would fill out the center vacancies via the FA market. Damp has expressed interest in returning after being traded and cut and Shaq is also rumored to be very interested in Dallas. Obviously, if at all possible Dallas would prefer to not lose Haywood but if it meant being able to acquire Johnson while preserving our most valuable trade chips for another big splash then I think they'd heavily consider it.

[Space Jam]

Dirk isn't going to leave Dallas

[dms269]

I want nothing to do with Terry. He was a chucker when he was here and if he comes back I wouldn't expect anything less from him.
Plus do you really need two combo guards with him and Jamal on the team? I just can just see them playing in the same lineup and arguing about who is gonna be the one to bring the ball up so they have first dibs at a shot.

[theatlfan]

I don't watch many Hawks games but from I have seen it looks like Horford would have the opportunity to be most productive at the 4. Haywood is a clear upgrade over Zaza and would certainly allow you to move your front court around and at the very least would offer a lot of versatility in the looks Atlanta can throw out on the court.

Take a look at what top centers in this league (who aren't on their rookie deals) are getting paid and then tell me I'm joking. Haywood's market value is approximately $8-$10m. That amount over 4 seasons is not unreasonable for a 31year old starting caliber 7 foot center in the NBA.

If Dallas traded Haywood they would fill out the center vacancies via the FA market. Damp has expressed interest in returning after being traded and cut and Shaq is also rumored to be very interested in Dallas. Obviously, if at all possible Dallas would prefer to not lose Haywood but if it meant being able to acquire Johnson while preserving our most valuable trade chips for another big splash then I think they'd heavily consider it.

1st, Horford would prolly be better served by playing PF, but us not really having a true C isn't the reason he doesn't have minutes there. The reason he's not getting minutes there is because of Josh Smith and the fact that he's developing into a really good player. Yeah, Smoove does have some maturity issues, but he is a stat stuffer and was the runner-up for DPOY this past year. Smith has proven that he isn't really a SF so his 36 minutes per night will be @ PF which leaves only a 1/4 for others to man the position. I don't see how getting Haywood would make us say "Now that we've got a linchpin C, let's see what we can get for Josh Smith."

2nd, how does looking @ the top Cs in the league give me an idea of what Haywood's market value is? Call me whacky, but I'm not going to compare a 30 yo with a career 8/7 average against a Dwight Howard or a Yao Ming. Personally, I'd put his value right now around where Joel Przybilla when he was entering FA. Przybilla got the full MLE and Haywood should get around that - maybe slightly more if he's got enough bidders. It doesn't really matter though: I just can't see our ownership group giving out a contract starting close to $10 mil to a backup C unless there are other factors involved (i.e., contract declines in value, contract is very short), and I'm not sure if Haywood would agree.

Look, I can understand why you'd want to keep Dampier and some of your other assets, but as I wrote earlier in this thread, I can't see it happening. Our priorities in any JJ deal would be 1) cap relief (not necessarily $15 mil or anything, but cutting $5-6 mil in the deal would give us significant breathing room under the tax threshold), 2) players (we'd still be looking to fill out a roster and we do need depth at every position with a focus on D and offensive efficiency), and 3) prospects (something to be able to say that trading JJ did yield us some futures instead of letting JJ be the villain and letting him walk for nothing). I realize that JJ won't bring us all of these items, but we'd want to maximize as many of those as possible... the deal you offer does bring us 1 (Haywood), but it's really not close.

[parson]

A full 90% of all RealGM trades involve some trick that allows the poster to say, "You're going to lose _____ anyway, so you might as well trade him to us for belly lint."

[parson]

DAL fans, if you'll look at your posts, you'll see you're saying that Dampier HAS to be valuable because he's all you have to trade.

[dms269]

A full 90% of all RealGM trades involve some trick that allows the poster to say, "You're going to lose _____ anyway, so you might as well trade him to us for belly lint."

That's usually what happens when they know the trade is horrible and are using it to justify the horrible trade.

[D21]

I don't watch many Hawks games but from I have seen it looks like Horford would have the opportunity to be most productive at the 4

You're entering another case here, because if we trade for a "starting center" (Haywood or other), and put Horford at PF, then we need to trade Josh Smith because it's impossible to play him at the 3.
Larry Drew always said he will put him around the basket and anywhere else.

So:
- we trade for a guy like Haywood and keep Horford and Smith, and the new C will play mainly coming from the bench, but with starter minutes:
16' Horford/Smith 16' Haywood/Horford 16' Haywood/Smith and Horford plays half C half PF.
or
- we trade for a real starting C, better than Haywood, and we need to trade Smith or Horford

[vandyman22]

Comments:
1) Why would Cuban send out $3 mil for Dominique Jones if he's not willing to trade Beaubois? Simple: he's perfectly willing.
2) As far as what offers DAL has declined, who cares? It's been Cuban's plan to get into FA all along and his 2 biggest chips are Beaubois and Dampier, so why would he pawn those off to get players he's not as enamored with? Just because Cuban declined an offer of Beaubois for a mid-lotto pick or one for Dampier for Deng doesn't mean that's their worth. It just means that the return wasn't worth it to Cuban to break his plan of entering the FA with these 2 chips.
(BTW, I doubt that CHI would trade Deng now that they've unloaded Hinrich.)
3) I don't think that Dampier can be flipped. After you trade for someone, you can't immediately trade him again - you've got to wait for some length of time. I think it's 60 days and I don't know when Dampier's option has to be triggered, but if it has to be triggered sometime with the 60 day window after 7/8 then it'd have to be a 3-way deal.

As for the SNT for JJ conversation, I'd imagine that what we want would be:
1) Salary Relief: we'd be pretty close to the tax threshold with a JJ SNT. Considering we'd still need to work out something for Chills (SNT with WASH has been rumored) and utilizing the MLE, getting a little breathing room under the tax would be nice.
2) Players: Apparently, our GM thinks we're young enough already and wants vets on the team. I don't necessarily agree with that sentiment, but it is what it is. Our current GM values shooters and scorers. I dunno if that's something he thinks we lack or if it's just a general preference. Either way, it amounts to the same thing here.
3) Prospects: Yes, we'd want to get some prospects out of any deal where we're trading the best player.
4) A C: prospect or player, it doesn't matter, but we need some size.

Some things scratched off the list:
* Haywood: We'd be interested, but I doubt that DAL would include him since he would be the only C that they would have any rights to.
* Bibby: we wouldn't mind shipping him (as much **** as he gets around here, he's still a 40% 3 PT shooter), but I doubt that he'd fit defensively with DAL's current G rotation.

For a JJ SNT to work, I'd imagine we'd be asking for Dampier, Beaubois, and other (lesser) assets. We might try a SNT with Dampier to a team that's against the tax threshold, but we would prefer to take back less $$ than Dampier's contract (aka, toward the bottom end of the 25% lee-way spectrum). I'd imagine DAL will counter with something akin to what we see here. Honestly, I could see us settle for just Dampier and Beaubois (esp. if we find the 3rd team to flip Dampier to), but I couldn't see us settle for a boatload of mediocre players and late 1st round draft picks.

It's been rumored in Dallas that we spend $3 million on Jones in order to keep Beaubois. There were numerous teams competing to get Jones at 25 and Memphis ended up giving it to Dallas.

[zzmav]

I don't watch many Hawks games but from I have seen it looks like Horford would have the opportunity to be most productive at the 4

You're entering another case here, because if we trade for a "starting center" (Haywood or other), and put Horford at PF, then we need to trade Josh Smith because it's impossible to play him at the 3.
Larry Drew always said he will put him around the basket and anywhere else.

So:
- we trade for a guy like Haywood and keep Horford and Smith, and the new C will play mainly coming from the bench, but with starter minutes:
16' Horford/Smith 16' Haywood/Horford 16' Haywood/Smith and Horford plays half C half PF.
or
- we trade for a real starting C, better than Haywood, and we need to trade Smith or Horford

Okay then I see where the issue lies. In that case Haywood may not be a viable option here. We'll see how everyhing pans out come July 1. Dallas has many assets (youth, exprings, talent, picks, cash) to find some kind of working combination and it's clear Johnson is on their radar so perhaps we'll have more to discuss in a week or two.