Yi to the Wizards for Ross

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Honestly, I might find out after me and Mrs CCJ version 2.0 part ways. I think I'm tired of sisters, man...

I'm probably going Filipino or Japanese next time out.

Angry asian chick sounds HOT to me, JWiz!

Cussin' you out with their cute little accent. Going all crazy throwing ish around the house.

sigh...yeah, that was super cute and sexy...the first time.

Angry Japanese girls just become passive aggressive and extra polite. Not so hot. I try not to make my girlfriend angry.

Man, I hate that. Thanks for the warning...

I'd much rather have a woman get the hate out of her system than to smile or to remain silent only to figure out ways to really stick it to you. Their hatred builds. EVERYTHING is your fault. And they do their best to ruin every aspect of your life. And one day you come home and there's a note on the pillow .... and she's run off with a man to Niagara Falls ....

Slowly, I turn ...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yJBhzMWJCc[/youtube]

[montestewart]

If EG had simply gotten a second round pick in the deal, I think a lot of the sturm und drang could have been averted. Maybe the light will turn on for Yi, but I'm not holding my breath.

This gets right to the larger point. Yi sucks, but his shot sometimes goes in, he's 7 feet tall, and he may be younger than Ross. Ross was part of a logjam, where Yi plays positions of need. I can see the greater upside, but that's beside the point.

New Jersey, Chicago, Miami, New York, they're trying to clear as much cap room as possible so they can sign two or three future HOFers and steamroll to the championship. Helping any of them achieve their goal must cost them. If you want to buy a championship, you really should be forced to pay. Yi has a greater upside, plays a position of need, and the Wizards get a little money to offset the greater salary. THAT'S NOT ENOUGH! A 2nd, two protected 2nds, a heavily protected 1st, something, or else the Wizards look like a proverbial also ran that doesn't expect to compete and barely tries, even when the #1 pick falls their way.

This isn't about winning next year or a year later; it's about having a good plan for winning that will work. It's pointless to have a five-year plan that requires knowing exactly what players will be available in five years and how good they will be. The point is to have a flexible plan, that will develop on the fly, to have cap space, trading assets, and stockpiled picks. I'm not seeing a very good, sensible plan for that yet. What I'm seeing is a team that was scooped or bamboozled by (among others) Memphis, San Antonio, Minnesota, possibly Chicago, and now New Jersey; I think it was luck as much as savvy that allowed the Wizards to dodge bullets on the Dallas and Cleveland trades.

I'll give EG credit for getting the cap space he got, and am trying to be open minded about he and Leonsis working together as a new dynamic, but it's hard, and I do not really have confidence in the new team/regime yet. The Wizards are still looking like the deer in the headlights, the sucker at the table, the perpetual mark, the extended metaphor that just won't end (did I get that right?), and if there is a brilliance behind all these moves, I may have to wait years to see it.

A least they didn't blow the #1 pick again.

[badinage]

Something else that hasn't been considered: In Milwaukee and in Joisey, Yi was counted upon to be something significant.

In Milwaukee, he was the tantalizing #6 pick in the draft and regarded as a major piece of the puzzle.

In New Jersey, the bloom was only very slightly off when Thorn acquired him for Jefferson. He was again counted upon.

Here, it's clear: he'll be a reserve; no one is thinking of him as a significant piece of the puzzle.

As a 2nd option (Mil), you're really fooling yourself. As a 3rd option (Joisey), you're really reaching. But as an 8th man? Hell, what's not to like? Going against reserves, I'd be willing to bet you see a better overall player. He's not "efficient," no (hate that cliche), but neither are most guys without a defined niche. He has talent. He's not a scrub. He's worth taking a flyer on.

I looked at his stats from last year, and there were a number of impressive scoring games -- particularly after he came back from his injury. Mind you, he's going to be a reserve. It's hard to find scoring in reserve. I think he can be that for us.

There's been an awful lot of hand-wringing over Ernie G., but this is consistent with what Leonsis talked about doing. This acquisition reflects his vision. He wants to collect a lot of cheap talent. He wants to create a young, upwardly mobile culture. This is exactly what he did with the Caps, except that in hockey it's a lot easier to acquire picks year after year.

Now, we can debate whether that's the way to go. Personally, I'm not so sure; I think there is no single, clearcut path to success in the NBA, unlike in football and baseball, where building through the draft is imperative (especially in football, with its salary cap). I think, in the main, you'll find that NBA teams are built through a variety of moves: drafting, trading, free agency. Owners need to be creative AND flexible AND aggressive.

But this is the kind of move you make if you're a team without a core but with some pieces (as opposed to a team with a core that's looking to add to the core and take the next jump, like Memphis or OKC or Portland). You add more players, in the hope that they evolve into pieces.

One more thing: this notion that Ernie didn't ask for picks. Just because you don't GET picks doesn't mean you didn't TRY for picks. What makes everyone so sure he didn't?

One function of boards like this is that people come on and make compelling arguments for things that are based on mere projection and speculation, and other people back them up and take those arguments to be gospel, and after a while a kind of group think prevails whereby that argument based on mere projection and speculation becomes truth. That's what's happened with all this BOYD talk. People have convinced themselves of what the market is.

Same thing happened with the draft. Folks convinced themselves that Booker was a reach, because the mocks all had Booker as a second-rounder -- and subsequently bashed Grunfeld for "overpaying." I heard this over and over again; it became the cliche of the post-mortems of draft day: "I like Booker, I just don't like what we paid for him." But the mocks are not reality. The reality is the reality. Mocks are projections made by outside observers. They're semi-educated guesses.

To return to Yi: A lot of people on here have convinced themselves -- over time and through repeated exposure to certain projections and speculations -- that we ought to have gotten No. 1 picks for taking scrubs off other teams' hands.

But that bespeaks a certain out-of-it entitlement. I just don't think that's the reality of the current market.

Would I have liked to have gotten the 11th pick for taking Peja Stojakovic off New Orleans's hands? Probably; I'm not convinced Xavier Henry is worth it, as some on here seem to think, and Cole Aldrich seems like a plodder; I'd much rather take my shot with Seraphin at 17, which is likely why Grunfeld zeroed in on that slot and not aimed lower. But the point is, that N.O. deal was a made-up deal to begin with. It was a creation of the boards, and we all ran with it for weeks and weeks -- convincing ourselves that this was the trade that Grunfeld had in his hands to make.

The market is as the market DOES.

Getting a big, tough-nosed, smart guard who's still young and a promising bull of a PF and a talented, still improving 8th man who can fill it up without sacrificing SIGNIFICANT cap space and without losing a decent player is not bad at all. And particularly if you consider that these moves are not being made with an eye toward next year, but an eye toward three years from now.

Final thought: there's a very cool thing about this deal that nobody has discussed, and it's not the China tie-in, and it's not the rebranding of the Wizards name, etc.

It's that we once more have a "Big E."

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

The other Big E had game.

Actually, Ernie's done so much I'm overwhelmed by it all. After years and years and years of very little trade activity, it's like he went berserk.

I have NO IDEA what kind of team the Wizards will have. Lots of very strange moves. Lots of "eclectic" players. That's just a euphimism for strange.

And we don't really know what the plan is regarding the Wizards' most eclectic player, Gilbert Arenas.

If nothing else, everybody should be curious.

[LyricalRico]

^^^

Just a stinking 2nd round pick with it, that's all. The Nets were the ones wanting the cap space and it's not like Yi's been tearing up the Association.

I think somebody mentioned this before but my guess is it probably came down to the pick or the cash and Ted took the cash. So in other words, it's like we made two trades at the same time:

Ross+TPE for Yi+2nd

and

2nd round pick for $3M cash

If that had been the scenario, would folks feel any different?

[sashae]

Oh sure, I'm a total mark for this sort of thing -- Ernie has been largely staid for years, not selling when he should have been to keep Abe happy, and then making awfully shortsighted deals when he hasn't been patient.

The main factor in this case is that it's creating a hell of lot of mystery for the team. None of these guys, excepting the one feller we really hope will be a star in Wall, necessarily will be here in a year or two. Flexibility, and a future thus far unknown are a hell of a lot more appealing than the mediocrity we've suffered for decades.

Who knows if this collection will make bouillabaisse or an aquarium full of floaters, but at least it'll be a surprise. I have to admit, the Howard-Thornton-Livingston-Blatche edition of the Wizards was a hell of a lot more compelling than watching Tough Juice brick it for months.

[fishercob]

Something else that hasn't been considered: In Milwaukee and in Joisey, Yi was counted upon to be something significant.

In Milwaukee, he was the tantalizing #6 pick in the draft and regarded as a major piece of the puzzle.

In New Jersey, the bloom was only very slightly off when Thorn acquired him for Jefferson. He was again counted upon.

Here, it's clear: he'll be a reserve; no one is thinking of him as a significant piece of the puzzle.

As a 2nd option (Mil), you're really fooling yourself. As a 3rd option (Joisey), you're really reaching. But as an 8th man? Hell, what's not to like? Going against reserves, I'd be willing to bet you see a better overall player. He's not "efficient," no (hate that cliche), but neither are most guys without a defined niche. He has talent. He's not a scrub. He's worth taking a flyer on.

I looked at his stats from last year, and there were a number of impressive scoring games -- particularly after he came back from his injury. Mind you, he's going to be a reserve. It's hard to find scoring in reserve. I think he can be that for us.

There's been an awful lot of hand-wringing over Ernie G., but this is consistent with what Leonsis talked about doing. This acquisition reflects his vision. He wants to collect a lot of cheap talent. He wants to create a young, upwardly mobile culture. This is exactly what he did with the Caps, except that in hockey it's a lot easier to acquire picks year after year.

Now, we can debate whether that's the way to go. Personally, I'm not so sure; I think there is no single, clearcut path to success in the NBA, unlike in football and baseball, where building through the draft is imperative (especially in football, with its salary cap). I think, in the main, you'll find that NBA teams are built through a variety of moves: drafting, trading, free agency. Owners need to be creative AND flexible AND aggressive.

But this is the kind of move you make if you're a team without a core but with some pieces (as opposed to a team with a core that's looking to add to the core and take the next jump, like Memphis or OKC or Portland). You add more players, in the hope that they evolve into pieces.

One more thing: this notion that Ernie didn't ask for picks. Just because you don't GET picks doesn't mean you didn't TRY for picks. What makes everyone so sure he didn't?

One function of boards like this is that people come on and make compelling arguments for things that are based on mere projection and speculation, and other people back them up and take those arguments to be gospel, and after a while a kind of group think prevails whereby that argument based on mere projection and speculation becomes truth. That's what's happened with all this BOYD talk. People have convinced themselves of what the market is.

Same thing happened with the draft. Folks convinced themselves that Booker was a reach, because the mocks all had Booker as a second-rounder -- and subsequently bashed Grunfeld for "overpaying." I heard this over and over again; it became the cliche of the post-mortems of draft day: "I like Booker, I just don't like what we paid for him." But the mocks are not reality. The reality is the reality. Mocks are projections made by outside observers. They're semi-educated guesses.

To return to Yi: A lot of people on here have convinced themselves -- over time and through repeated exposure to certain projections and speculations -- that we ought to have gotten No. 1 picks for taking scrubs off other teams' hands.

But that bespeaks a certain out-of-it entitlement. I just don't think that's the reality of the current market.

Would I have liked to have gotten the 11th pick for taking Peja Stojakovic off New Orleans's hands? Probably; I'm not convinced Xavier Henry is worth it, as some on here seem to think, and Cole Aldrich seems like a plodder; I'd much rather take my shot with Seraphin at 17, which is likely why Grunfeld zeroed in on that slot and not aimed lower. But the point is, that N.O. deal was a made-up deal to begin with. It was a creation of the boards, and we all ran with it for weeks and weeks -- convincing ourselves that this was the trade that Grunfeld had in his hands to make.

The market is as the market DOES.

Getting a big, tough-nosed, smart guard who's still young and a promising bull of a PF and a talented, still improving 8th man who can fill it up without sacrificing SIGNIFICANT cap space and without losing a decent player is not bad at all. And particularly if you consider that these moves are not being made with an eye toward next year, but an eye toward three years from now.

Final thought: there's a very cool thing about this deal that nobody has discussed, and it's not the China tie-in, and it's not the rebranding of the Wizards name, etc.

It's that we once more have a "Big E."

Best defense of this trade I've seen yet, badinage. I wish you posted more; you're one of my favorites.

[verbal8]

^^^

Just a stinking 2nd round pick with it, that's all. The Nets were the ones wanting the cap space and it's not like Yi's been tearing up the Association.

I think somebody mentioned this before but my guess is it probably came down to the pick or the cash and Ted took the cash. So in other words, it's like we made two trades at the same time:

Ross+TPE for Yi+2nd

and

2nd round pick for $3M cash

If that had been the scenario, would folks feel any different?

I am fine with selling a pick if there is no one there that seems likely to fit in the teams plans. However selling a pick before having any idea where it falls and what your needs are does not seem like a good rebuilding move to me.

[mcgradyming]

I think this deal is ok. If anything, its a nothing for a little something deal. It's not trading the 5th pick for rental players. We should've just traded down that year.

[willbcocks]

I don't know why people are talking about Humphries. Dude is a clown and I'm glad we didn't get him.

Best defense of this trade --> it neuters EG in the FA market. No Childress for us. (knock on wood).

[montestewart]

One of the frustrating things on this board is trying to figure out if there's a need to respond to comments that begin with "Everybody" or attribute positions to "folks." Such comments rarely summarize the position of a unified group, instead they usually selectively lump together disparate aspects of various positions to create a united (and quite fictional) opposing view.

Since this long post followed my own, I'll irrationally leap to the assumption that I must respond.

One more thing: this notion that Ernie didn't ask for picks. Just because you don't GET picks doesn't mean you didn't TRY for picks. What makes everyone so sure he didn't?

No one is sure that he did or didn't, but he strikes me as the kind of person who is not very good in the asking, and I've been watching him for some time.

"How about a future protected 2nd?"
"No way, EG."
"OK."

To return to Yi: A lot of people on here have convinced themselves -- over time and through repeated exposure to certain projections and speculations -- that we ought to have gotten No. 1 picks for taking scrubs off other teams' hands.

But that bespeaks a certain out-of-it entitlement. I just don't think that's the reality of the current market.

....

The market is as the market DOES.

The market is the market, and all players in the market are not created equally. I think EG's been played for a sucker a few times, and if we continually assume that the deal he got must have been the best possible deal available to any player in the market, we're playing ourselves for suckers.

I can't speak for everyone, but many of the objections and concerns voiced on this board about the way the team is proceeding are logical, reasonable, well-supported and well-articulated. Many on this board, maybe almost everyone, is a longtime Bullets/Wizards watcher. Mine is one perspective; time will tell if it's missed the mark, but it is considered. This team, and its ownership and management, has to gain my trust. It hasn't done that yet. Maybe I'm just not very trusting.

I don't think there have been any fatal errors. Yet. But it still feels like the big one's right around the corner.

[montestewart]

^^^

Just a stinking 2nd round pick with it, that's all. The Nets were the ones wanting the cap space and it's not like Yi's been tearing up the Association.

I think somebody mentioned this before but my guess is it probably came down to the pick or the cash and Ted took the cash. So in other words, it's like we made two trades at the same time:

Ross+TPE for Yi+2nd

and

2nd round pick for $3M cash

If that had been the scenario, would folks feel any different?

The plan that gives me confidence in the future of the team has stockpiled picks/assets, not cash in the owner's pocket.

[montestewart]

Best defense of this trade --> it neuters EG in the FA market. No Childress for us. (knock on wood).

I'll buy that, but why have a GM that needs that kind of management. It's like having a coach that plays lousy, undersized players out of position and forces the GM to trade them to make it stop.

[Ed Wood]

Obviously you guys don't remember Yi's dominance in pre-draft workouts against multiple folding chairs. We got a steal.

Antawn Jamison you are already dead.

I don't understand the negativity. I think Yi can play the 3 or stretch 4, and a front line of Blatche/Yi/McGee seems awfully interesting to me.

Interesting maybe in the same sense as in the totally legit real Chinese curse "may you live in interesting times?"

And because we're still somehow not on the same page with the objections being raised about this one: it's not that we (Nate, Fisher, myself, the faceless masses, uh Hoop?) really expected the cap room the team is committing to Hinrich and Yi to have turned into something super neat or to transform the Wizards instantly into contenders and I personally am not really that bothered by the Hinrich trade or trading up to pick Booker because I see that the team picked up something worthwhile in both moves.

My problem here is that I think Yi Jianlian is a very forgettable NBA player and that he is not going to become memorable in a good way any time soon. I see Jersey as having been the team in this trade with a very real need to make a move to free up cap space and so I assume that it aught to have been Jersey that gave up something, anything, that another NBA franchise would like to have in order to achieve that goal.

I agree that the marketing angle to the trade is not insignificant and may have played a large part in why the Wizards were willing to consummate it but one of my general maxims when pretending to be some important NBA type is to never HAVE to make a move, because when you HAVE to make a move whoever you have to dance that dance with is going to **** you, and they are not buying you dinner first. I don't think the Wizards are really losing anything or hurting the franchise here but Jersey showed up to this dance in twelve inch heels and makeup like they needed it in the worst way and we ended up splitting the check.

[Ed Wood]

Also, stop teasing me with the MMA talk guys. You're gonna make me bump the thread if you keep rubbing that spot.

[willbcocks]

Best defense of this trade --> it neuters EG in the FA market. No Childress for us. (knock on wood).

I'll buy that, but why have a GM that needs that kind of management. It's like having a coach that plays lousy, undersized players out of position and forces the GM to trade them to make it stop.

Totally.

The other two positive aspects are:

1) gives us more tanks for Mr. Heinrich to command

2) it's kinda fun on Realgm while EG is screwing with the Lebron hunt

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Also, stop teasing me with the MMA talk guys. You're gonna make me bump the thread if you keep rubbing that spot.

Trivia question: Which of the following is not an an MMA move?

A. Omaplata
B. Gogoplata
C. Googaplata
D. Kimura

Hint, the one that's not MMA is a signature move of WWE's Ray Mysterio.

PS Sorry if I'm kind of distracted away from hoops right now. Ernie's gone mad scientist and I'm just out there today.

[Ed Wood]

Also, stop teasing me with the MMA talk guys. You're gonna make me bump the thread if you keep rubbing that spot.

Trivia question: Which of the following is not an an MMA move?

A. Omaplata
B. Gogoplata
C. Googaplata
D. Kimura

Hint, the one that's not MMA is a signature move of WWE's Ray Mysterio.

PS Sorry if I'm kind of distracted away from hoops right now. Ernie's gone mad scientist and I'm just out there today.

Well C but I'd accept A because everybody knows finishing omaplatas in MMA is for dorks and they're only acceptable to use to sweep.

[Rafael122]

Gogoplata and I believe it's used by the Undertaker.

[DCZards]

One more thing: this notion that Ernie didn't ask for picks. Just because you don't GET picks doesn't mean you didn't TRY for picks. What makes everyone so sure he didn't?

One function of boards like this is that people come on and make compelling arguments for things that are based on mere projection and speculation, and other people back them up and take those arguments to be gospel, and after a while a kind of group think prevails whereby that argument based on mere projection and speculation becomes truth. That's what's happened with all this BOYD talk. People have convinced themselves of what the market is.

Same thing happened with the draft. Folks convinced themselves that Booker was a reach, because the mocks all had Booker as a second-rounder -- and subsequently bashed Grunfeld for "overpaying." I heard this over and over again; it became the cliche of the post-mortems of draft day: "I like Booker, I just don't like what we paid for him." But the mocks are not reality. The reality is the reality. Mocks are projections made by outside observers. They're semi-educated guesses.

What he said.