Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space?

[verbal8]

Databasebasketball.com compares players with similarity scores.
http://www.databasebasketball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=ARENAGI01

The 5th closest with Arenas is Wade. 4th is Steven Jackson. I think putting him between these two players would be a pretty accurate comparison.

The top 3 are Redd, Mashburn and Anthony. I don't really see these as much. A healthy Redd and Arenas might be the same level of player, but Redd is a great shooter who gets some rebounds and a few assists(more like Ray Allen). Anthony and Mashburn are forwards, although I guess point forwards could have similarities to a combo guard.

[tontoz]

Forgive me if I don't use the two seasons when Arenas played on one leg as a barometer for his future production.

Last season, if you ignore the first 15 games when he was shaking off two years of rust, Arenas was posting 25, 8 and 5 with a TS% around 54%. His TS% was a touch lower than his peak level of 57%, but other than that, he was the old Arenas. With another 10 months of rest and rehab for his knee, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect pretty close to his peak production.

You said the last 5 years. Arenas hardly played the last 3 years so that was a nonsensical time frame.

However the most important point is being missed. This team isn't going to be built around Arenas. It is going to be built around Wall. Arenas is ball dominant, has a bad contract, plays the same position and is 9 years older. That combination isn't going to work.

The center spot is the toughest spot to fill. If Blatche is the long term answer at the 4 then the Wizards need a tough rebounder/defender next to him. Gortat is the perfect fit. That would give the Wizards a (hopefully) franchise pg along with twin towers at the 4/5. That would put them way ahead of where OKC was when they drafted Durant.

[WizStorm]

Talking about overrating someone ... we're talking about Marcin Gortat here, correct? I'm sorry but having him listed as part of a "twin towers" is downright laughable (as is including Blatche in that). Gortat is not the answer for anything nor is he anything close to being part of a long term solution. He's just a nice role player to have (preferably off the bench) that is now being overpaid for his contributions.

[Zonkerbl]

What do you mean when you say Arenas is ball dominant? Last year Flip tried to force Arenas to dominate the ball as a traditional point guard, that's the only time EVER in his career he has been "ball dominant." In the Princeton he didn't handle the ball at all really, he just brought it over half court and started the weave and heave.

History says Arenas turns other guards and small forwards on his team into all stars -- Larry Hughes, Caron Butler -- and gets lousy players inflated contracts -- Larry Hughes, Jared Jeffries. It's no mystery to me that players that leave the wiz after playing next to Arenas commence to massive suckage.

It's natural for ignorant people to pile on to the latest media whipping boy, so I understand why people are coming up with this "ball dominant" nonsense, but that's all it is, nonsense.

Not that I'm fully defending Arenas -- his childish attitude about defense (every time they would get on him to play defense, he would stop playing offense and say "I'm spending so much mental energy on defense I can't play offense" -- give me a break!!!!), his lack of leadership, and his "looseness" (pooping in Blatche's shoes? Yeah, that's professional, that's setting a good example) are big strikes against him. But he's not a ball hog.

[Silvie Lysandra]

You utterly disregard the fact that we drafted 3 big men, one of which is a true center, one of which is a 6'9 250 pound mauler with great athleticism, to add to our 7'1 prospect with Dwight Howard level measurables who has immense upside.

You also seem to think Arenas is some kind of Iverson like presence in which he has to have the ball in his hand to be successful when in reality, he does quite well when he's not the primary ballhandler. You also seem to just assume Arenas can't play SG.

You will forgive me if trading him for a 2nd string C and a washed up SG doesn't strike me as the best *basketball* move.

[tontoz]

Talking about overrating someone ... we're talking about Marcin Gortat here, correct? I'm sorry but having him listed as part of a "twin towers" is downright laughable (as is including Blatche in that). Gortat is not the answer for anything nor is he anything close to being part of a long term solution. He's just a nice role player to have (preferably off the bench) that is now being overpaid for his contributions.

He is only an NBA role player because he plays behind the best center in the league who rarely misses a game.

[tontoz]

You utterly disregard the fact that we drafted 3 big men, one of which is a true center, one of which is a 6'9 250 pound mauler with great athleticism, to add to our 7'1 prospect with Dwight Howard level measurables who has immense upside.

You also seem to think Arenas is some kind of Iverson like presence in which he has to have the ball in his hand to be successful when in reality, he does quite well when he's not the primary ballhandler. You also seem to just assume Arenas can't play SG.

You will forgive me if trading him for a 2nd string C and a washed up SG doesn't strike me as the best *basketball* move.

When has Arenas started the year at the 2? I am not assuming anything. I am just stating the fact that Arenas has been a ball dominant player for years.

Arenas is 9 years older than Wall. You do realize that right?

Are you seriously comparing a second round pick to Dwight Howard?

[nate33]

Forgive me if I don't use the two seasons when Arenas played on one leg as a barometer for his future production.

Last season, if you ignore the first 15 games when he was shaking off two years of rust, Arenas was posting 25, 8 and 5 with a TS% around 54%. His TS% was a touch lower than his peak level of 57%, but other than that, he was the old Arenas. With another 10 months of rest and rehab for his knee, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect pretty close to his peak production.

You said the last 5 years. Arenas hardly played the last 3 years so that was a nonsensical time frame.

However the most important point is being missed. This team isn't going to be built around Arenas. It is going to be built around Wall. Arenas is ball dominant, has a bad contract, plays the same position and is 9 years older. That combination isn't going to work.

The center spot is the toughest spot to fill. If Blatche is the long term answer at the 4 then the Wizards need a tough rebounder/defender next to him. Gortat is the perfect fit. That would give the Wizards a (hopefully) franchise pg along with twin towers at the 4/5. That would put them way ahead of where OKC was when they drafted Durant.

Sorry, It appears that I've enjoyed our debate so much that I never looked back and noticed your original point. When you said "Arenas is nothing special", I felt the need to defend him.

Your original point was that the Wizards should trade Arenas for Gortat plus filler. I don't really disagree. Indeed, I spent the first 10 pages of this thread arguing in favor of an Arenas for Vince trade. I don't know if the inclusion of Gortat is a positive or a negative incentive (It depends on how good Seraphin is), but I would definitely swap Arenas for Vince.

[tontoz]

Forgive me if I don't use the two seasons when Arenas played on one leg as a barometer for his future production.

Last season, if you ignore the first 15 games when he was shaking off two years of rust, Arenas was posting 25, 8 and 5 with a TS% around 54%. His TS% was a touch lower than his peak level of 57%, but other than that, he was the old Arenas. With another 10 months of rest and rehab for his knee, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect pretty close to his peak production.

You said the last 5 years. Arenas hardly played the last 3 years so that was a nonsensical time frame.

However the most important point is being missed. This team isn't going to be built around Arenas. It is going to be built around Wall. Arenas is ball dominant, has a bad contract, plays the same position and is 9 years older. That combination isn't going to work.

The center spot is the toughest spot to fill. If Blatche is the long term answer at the 4 then the Wizards need a tough rebounder/defender next to him. Gortat is the perfect fit. That would give the Wizards a (hopefully) franchise pg along with twin towers at the 4/5. That would put them way ahead of where OKC was when they drafted Durant.

Sorry, It appears that I've enjoyed our debate so much that I never looked back and noticed your original point. When you said "Arenas is nothing special", I felt the need to defend him.

Your original point was that the Wizards should trade Arenas for Gortat plus filler. I don't really disagree. Indeed, I spent the first 10 pages of this thread arguing in favor of an Arenas for Vince trade. I don't know if the inclusion of Gortat is a positive or a negative incentive (It depends on how good Seraphin is), but I would definitely swap Arenas for Vince.

i came into the thread late so i was unaware of your previous posts.

I would be reluctant to trade Arenas strictly for an expirer. However getting a defensive rebounding center in the deal makes it an easy call for me.

What center would get big minutes playing behind howard? Some people are only looking at the minutes Gortat plays and assuming that is an indicator of his ability. That is ridiculous.

[WizStorm]

Here's a good summary on Gortat's game from last offseason when he signed the over sheet with the Mavs and thought the Magic weren't going to be stupid enough to match:
http://www.sharapovasthigh.com/2009/07/ ... llion.html

Dallas Mavericks sign C Marcin Gortat to a 5-Year, $34 Million offer sheet

Okay, seriously? Marcin Gortat and 34 million dollars in the same sentence? There is little to no doubt in my mind that this will be a horrible deal for Dallas, just like the aforementioned DeSagana Diop one was. And it's a done deal, no doubt about it. The Orlando Magic are not going to match that offer when they have a guy named Dwight Howard at center.

The "Polish Hammer" is a backup center. The 25-year-old is in the league simply due to his 6'11", 240 frame. He has a poor offensive game around the basket, most of his points are going to come on offensive rebounds and dunks. He's under a career 60% free throw shooter as well.

Mark Cuban continues to try and find a center, and overpays in free-agency for big bodies, rather than pulling the trigger on deals for actually good big men such as Pau Gasol and Shaquille O'Neal over the last few years.

Can Marcin Gortat be a useful player and reel in some double-doubles? Sure, but he shouldn't be getting anywhere close to this contract. And do you really want this dude starting in playoff games at center?

[Zonkerbl]

Sooo... the punchline of that article is he's a backup center making $7 million a year. And this is a bad thing... how? Assuming McGee improves to starter quality, everybody's got McGee penciled in as the starting C anyway, I can see Gortat being a solid C off the bench. How much was Etan getting?

Still not a fair swap for Arenas. I want a decent, young starting two in return for him or it's no deal.

[Severn Hoos]

I mentioned it in the Yi thread, but what if the potential Vince-Gil trade is actually Gil + Yi for Vince + Pietrus? Not sure what other "sweeteners" might go in either direction, but I'd be happier with Pietrus than Gortat. He's a strong perimeter defender (which we need) who can hit the 3 (which we need) and his contract expires in 2012, the same time as Hinrich (which we need).

I really think the idea of clearing space for next summer isn't happening. Ted is looking to "keep his powder dry" (their words) for 2012 or later, when Wall is becoming an All-Star and we know better what we have in youngsters like McGee, Seraphin, next year's pick, maybe Young?

I'd still rather keep Gil for the start of the season to see if it can work with Wall, but if not - this would be a great mid-season trade, IMO.


Oh, and one last thought - if there's any team I'd like to trade Gil to, Orlando would be at the top of the list, at least among Eastern Conference squads. Howard and an All-Star Guard might be the only thing standing between the punk (James) and his "Dream Team" (sacrilege to use the same moniker as the Magic-Bird-Jordan-etc. Olympic Team). In fact, I'd be delighted beyond words to see Gil & Dwight knock out whatever combination of rotisserie players LeBron cobbles together. Now that would be sweet.

[WizStorm]

Sooo... the punchline of that article is he's a backup center making $7 million a year. And this is a bad thing... how? Assuming McGee improves to starter quality, everybody's got McGee penciled in as the starting C anyway, I can see Gortat being a solid C off the bench. How much was Etan getting?

I was thinking of the Etan Thomas comparison myself. I seriously don't believe anyone thinks that he was a bargain for his production after we matched his offer sheet from the Bucks.

[nate33]

I don't see Orlando giving up Pietrus in the deal. With Vince gone, he's their only legit swing man defender. He'd probably be a starter.

[Zonkerbl]

Well, that's my point though, at Etan's salary wouldn't you rather have Gortat with his legit size than Etan?

[nate33]

Sooo... the punchline of that article is he's a backup center making $7 million a year. And this is a bad thing... how? Assuming McGee improves to starter quality, everybody's got McGee penciled in as the starting C anyway, I can see Gortat being a solid C off the bench. How much was Etan getting?

I was thinking of the Etan Thomas comparison myself. I seriously don't believe anyone thinks that he was a bargain for his production after we matched his offer sheet from the Bucks.

If Gortat is Etan Thomas, than he is overpaid. If Gortat is Jeff Foster, than he isn't. It's hard to know for sure since he always plays in Dwight's shadow.

How good is his "flex and glare" move?

[tontoz]

Here's a good summary on Gortat's game from last offseason when he signed the over sheet with the Mavs and thought the Magic weren't going to be stupid enough to match:
http://www.sharapovasthigh.com/2009/07/ ... llion.html

Dallas Mavericks sign C Marcin Gortat to a 5-Year, $34 Million offer sheet

Okay, seriously? Marcin Gortat and 34 million dollars in the same sentence? There is little to no doubt in my mind that this will be a horrible deal for Dallas, just like the aforementioned DeSagana Diop one was. And it's a done deal, no doubt about it. The Orlando Magic are not going to match that offer when they have a guy named Dwight Howard at center.

The "Polish Hammer" is a backup center. The 25-year-old is in the league simply due to his 6'11", 240 frame. He has a poor offensive game around the basket, most of his points are going to come on offensive rebounds and dunks. He's under a career 60% free throw shooter as well.

Mark Cuban continues to try and find a center, and overpays in free-agency for big bodies, rather than pulling the trigger on deals for actually good big men such as Pau Gasol and Shaquille O'Neal over the last few years.

Can Marcin Gortat be a useful player and reel in some double-doubles? Sure, but he shouldn't be getting anywhere close to this contract. And do you really want this dude starting in playoff games at center?

You are quoting from a reporter who sees Gortat twice a year and pretending he is some sort of authority. Too funny.

Actually Gortat signed with Houston and obviously Orlando matched. I guess this reporter knows baskeball better than the front offices of two perenially winning teams.

FYI Gortat shot 68% from the line this season. He was 9th in the NBA in rebounds per minute and 10th in blocks per minute.

[AceDegenerate]

Severn is giving EG way too much credit. The man has already come out and said he thinks Yi is part of our future, this was either just a bad basketball move acquiring Yi, or a good marketing one. One way or another, he ain't going nowhere as part of another package.

[WizStorm]

Well, that's my point though, at Etan's salary wouldn't you rather have Gortat with his legit size than Etan?

My point is no to either. One of the biggest mistakes that franchises make is to fill their team with backup role players with long-term MLE sized contracts.

[miller31time]

How good is his "flex and glare" move?