Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space?

[miller31time]

Well, that's my point though, at Etan's salary wouldn't you rather have Gortat with his legit size than Etan?

My point is no to either. One of the biggest mistakes that franchises make is to fill their team with backup role players with long-term MLE sized contracts.

Bingo.

Whether he's Etan Thomas incarnate of a Jeff Foster clone, I don't want him on this team. I'm sick of handing out these MLE deals left and right. Rebuilding teams don't rebuild through mediocre role players on longterm contracts.

[nate33]

Whether he's Etan Thomas incarnate of a Jeff Foster clone, I don't want him on this team. I'm sick of handing out these MLE deals left and right. Rebuilding teams don't rebuild through mediocre role players on longterm contracts.

I agree in that I wouldn't go sign Gortat to an MLE deal if he was a free agent this summer. But to be fair, we wouldn't be handing out this deal willy-nilly. The assumption is that Orlando is forcing us to eat Gortat's contract as the price for taking on Arenas'. In that context, I wouldn't mind much if Gortat indeed turned out to be a Jeff Foster clone.

Basically, the Gortat part of the deal is entirely secondary. I figure he's close enough to being worth his contract that I wouldn't sweat the details. The real issue is whether or not we should swap Arenas for Carter.

[nate33]

How good is his "flex and glare" move?

Not bad.

At least's holding the ball while flexing. Etan flexes at his opponent while his opponent shoots an incontested 15-foot jumper.

[Induveca]

I'm really disappointed with a large amount of people on this board these days.

I simply can't fathom why anyone would want to trade Gilbert Arenas, who admittedly has had injuries and stupidity defeat him over the past 3 seasons, but when he has been healthy, regardless of his immaturity he has been dominant. With just 30 or so games last year, the guy was putting up all star offensive numbers. He had a game with 45 points and 13 assists, and he was VERY RUSTY.

That kind of talent only comes along once every 10 years (MAYBE) for any NBA squad. The fact we have the ability to land the #1 pick, and have a player the caliber of Arenas on the squad, why the hell would you not want the team to see how it works out first?

To me, this is the equivalent of the Spurs in the mid 90s dumping David Robinson as soon as they drafted Ducan purely because Robinson had been injured the previous season (would have been idiotic, but there were some rumors of him being traded due to Duncan's imminent arrival back then). And please don't give me the gun incident as the reason to get rid of him. If this was Wade, Lebron James, Kobe or otherwise.......none of their squads would be foolish enough to trade them for VINCE CARTER AND GORTAT.

Be logical people, anyone with a brain never sells low when there is an obvious rise in value just around the corner. It makes business and basketball sense to see how Arenas/Wall/Blatche blend together on the court. To bring in Vince Carter and watch him sulk for a year while Arenas and Dwight Howard go deep into the playoffs is incompetency to the highest degree. If this year of free agents has taught anyone anything, the teams who lose out will do their best to make room for Carmelo Anthony next year if they lose out this year. More than a few teams will get a few one yeear players and leave a max slot available for next season. Stop piling on and falling for the foolish media hype. Arenas made a stupid mistake, very stupid mistake, but he is too talented to lose for nothing...........which is exactly what would happen.

I also strongly feel at this point these boards are used regularly by NBA front offices to see what the fans are thinking. I'm sure the collective knowledge of the fans on here is also quite helpful when looking for trades and otherwise. Backing this trade and giving them more ideas on how to execute it is also very irresponsible of the fans here. Webber for Richmond all over again. I don't want to watch Arenas have 4 prime years making noise in the playoffs in Orlando. It would make us all feel like fools.

[DCZards]

How good is his "flex and glare" move?

Not bad.

At least's holding the ball while flexing. Etan flexes at his opponent while his opponent shoots an incontested 15-foot jumper.

He may be holding the ball and flexing...but he's also giving the other team (the Zards in this case) a change to get back on D. Seems to me Gortat should be looking for an outlet pass rather than flexing and glaring.

[miller31time]

Whether he's Etan Thomas incarnate of a Jeff Foster clone, I don't want him on this team. I'm sick of handing out these MLE deals left and right. Rebuilding teams don't rebuild through mediocre role players on longterm contracts.

I agree in that I wouldn't go sign Gortat to an MLE deal if he was a free agent this summer. But to be fair, we wouldn't be handing out this deal willy-nilly. The assumption is that Orlando is forcing us to eat Gortat's contract as the price for taking on Arenas'. In that context, I wouldn't mind much if Gortat indeed turned out to be a Jeff Foster clone.

Basically, the Gortat part of the deal is entirely secondary. I figure he's close enough to being worth his contract that I wouldn't sweat the details. The real issue is whether or not we should swap Arenas for Carter.

If this trade were to happen now, the Wizards would likely have to take on a large, long-term contract (such as Gortat's) for the Magic to bite on an Arenas trade.

But if we do as I would hope and hang on to Arenas until he rebuilds his trade value (which he would undoubtedly do), then maybe the Magic (or another team) would take him on without having to get extra incentive.

Hell, by keeping our options open, maybe Arenas and Wall have this incredible unforeseen chemistry and we'd choose not to trade him at all.

[Bickerstaff]

Severn is giving EG way too much credit. The man has already come out and said he thinks Yi is part of our future, this was either just a bad basketball move acquiring Yi, or a good marketing one. One way or another, he ain't going nowhere as part of another package.

Probably, but it's not like a GM's gonna come out and say, "We traded for him in the hope that we can flip him for something better later." You at least have to pretend he's part of the future.

[nate33]

To me, this is the equivalent of the Spurs in the mid 90s dumping David Robinson as soon as they drafted Ducan purely because Robinson had been injured the previous season (would have been idiotic, but there were some rumors of him being traded due to Duncan's imminent arrival back then).

First of all, Gilbert Arenas is no David Robinson. And more importantly, the Spurs were a championship contender the year before Robinson was hurt and had every reason to believe they would be a championship contender when he came back. By contrast, the Wizards were a middling 43 win team when Arenas got hurt and have since jettisoned the three next-best players on his team.

I won't rehash all of my wonderfully logical and coherent arguments for making the deal. I'll just say that Arenas pushed the limits of being overpaid even when he was at his peak playing for a team that was built around him. Now, he costs even more, he has probably lost a step, and he plays on a team that has two quality starters at his natural position. It's hard to argue he is still worth his contract, at least to a team in our situation.

[Induveca]

To me, this is the equivalent of the Spurs in the mid 90s dumping David Robinson as soon as they drafted Ducan purely because Robinson had been injured the previous season (would have been idiotic, but there were some rumors of him being traded due to Duncan's imminent arrival back then).

First of all, Gilbert Arenas is no David Robinson. And more importantly, the Spurs were a championship contender the year before Robinson was hurt and had every reason to believe they would be a championship contender when he came back. By contract, the Wizards were a middling 43 win team when Arenas got hurt and have since jettisoned the three next-best players on his team.

I won't rehash all of my wonderfully logical and coherent arguments for making the deal. I'll just say that Arenas pushed the limits of being overpaid even when he was at his peak playing for a team that was built around him. Now, he costs even more, he has probably lost a step, and he plays on a team that has two quality starters at his natural position. It's hard to argue he is still worth his contract, at least to a team in our situation.

David Robinson had won NOTHING before he got Duncan. Neither has Arenas. Without Duncan, Robinson wins zero titles in his career. Will Wall and Arenas result in multiple titles? Nope, but they could gel and get a Run TMC vibe going a la Tim Hardaway/Mitch Richmond in the early 90s. If Blatche suddenly becomes a monster, and we luck out with Seraphin coming over and becoming the second coming of Barkley.....you never know maybe we make some noise in a year. Arenas also has enough tricks up his sleeve to pass on to Wall and vice versa. If they blend well, they could really feed off each other a la Hughes/Arenas at a whole other level. Vince Carter will only create a sullen mood and teach Wall the exact opposite of what it is to want to win. Arenas has something to prove, and I think anyone who has been a fan of this squad for 5+ years will realize Arenas is a special player, and not a fool, he'll be on his best behavior and do his best to redeem himself. Far from a bad influence.

I'm all for your arguments, and understand them, but I find it quite foolish to trade away an amazing talent for nothing, when you know the value of said talent will improve exponentially in 6 months. If you had a stock you knew would rise by 75% in 6 months would you sell it on the market purely because you had similar stock and wanted to diversify your portfolio even at a loss? No, of course not you would ride out the market, see the gains then diversify APPROPRIATELY AND WISELY.

Stupid move to trade him now. It would be an epic failure on part of the Wizards, and I will lose some faith in Leonsis if it happens. Although I doubt it, we actually have a good businessman as an owner for once. He would have kept Webber.

[Hoopalotta]

Sooo... the punchline of that article is he's a backup center making $7 million a year. And this is a bad thing... how?

Exactly my reaction as well; not a bargain or what I feel we need on our books, but hardly a travesty of a contract by NBA standards.

There's contenders that he could help quite a bit who shouldn't bat an eye at that contract.

[nate33]

I find it quite foolish to trade away an amazing talent for nothing, when you know the value of said talent will improve exponentially in 6 months. If you had a stock you knew would rise by 75% in 6 months would you sell it on the market purely because you had similar stock and wanted to diversify your portfolio even at a loss? No, of course not you would ride out the market, see the gains then diversify APPROPRIATELY AND WISELY.

I'm sympathetic to this argument. The potential does exist that Arenas upgrades his value if he plays for a few months at a high level alongside Wall. I just wonder how much his trade value really improves. I figure anybody who takes him now is already gambling that he will return to something near his peak performance.

My big concern is that this argument works both ways. Arenas could also get hurt, or simply not play that well as the SG. Then his value falls through the floor. I'm also convinced that we are in the midst of a perfect storm of spending profligacy due to the free agency frenzy. This may be a once in a lifetime opportunity to sell Arenas while so many teams are buying. When the summer is over, cap room will be gone and teams will be focusing on trimming payroll in preparation for the new CBA.

[DCZards]

I simply can't fathom why anyone would want to trade Gilbert Arenas, who admittedly has had injuries and stupidity defeat him over the past 3 seasons, but when he has been healthy, regardless of his immaturity he has been dominant. With just 30 or so games last year, the guy was putting up all star offensive numbers. He had a game with 45 points and 13 assists, and he was VERY RUSTY.

That kind of talent only comes along once every 10 years (MAYBE) for any NBA squad. The fact we have the ability to land the #1 pick, and have a player the caliber of Arenas on the squad, why the hell would you not want the team to see how it works out first?

We have a great player on hte squad now, stop piling on and falling for the foolish media hype. Arenas made a stupid mistake, very stupid mistake, but he is too damn talented to lose for nothing...........which is exactly what would happen.

Spot on, induveca. The sentiment for many (not all) on this board seems to be that you trade GA because he's either too old (he's only 28); he can't play with Wall (that remains to be seen); he costs too much (talk about knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing); or could get reinjured (that's always a chance you take).

These are all understandable and reasonable concerns. But not, imo, good enough reasons to dump a talent like Gil for Carter/Gortat, cap room or the first good-looking babe that comes along. Teams are falling all over themselves trying to sign two superstars to their roster and the Wizards may already have two in Wall and Arenas...and some of us can't wait to unload the one who is already a proven star.

Yes, I admit to being guilty of having an emotional attachment to GA. I still think he's a good guy despite his stupidity. And I want to see GA make his comeback right here on Fun Street and shut all the haters up. I think Agent Zero comes back with a vengeance. A Wall-Arenas backcourt could be special. Gil recognizes that and I fully expect him to go along with Flip's program.

So, hey, let's a give it a try and not make a stupid trade.

And, if we're moving GA, let's get more than an aging SG (Carter) and a backup center (Gortat).

[tontoz]

To me, this is the equivalent of the Spurs in the mid 90s dumping David Robinson as soon as they drafted Ducan purely because Robinson had been injured the previous season (would have been idiotic, but there were some rumors of him being traded due to Duncan's imminent arrival back then).

First of all, Gilbert Arenas is no David Robinson. And more importantly, the Spurs were a championship contender the year before Robinson was hurt and had every reason to believe they would be a championship contender when he came back. By contract, the Wizards were a middling 43 win team when Arenas got hurt and have since jettisoned the three next-best players on his team.

I won't rehash all of my wonderfully logical and coherent arguments for making the deal. I'll just say that Arenas pushed the limits of being overpaid even when he was at his peak playing for a team that was built around him. Now, he costs even more, he has probably lost a step, and he plays on a team that has two quality starters at his natural position. It's hard to argue he is still worth his contract, at least to a team in our situation.

David Robinson had won NOTHING before he got Duncan. Neither has Arenas. Without Duncan, Robinson wins zero titles in his career.

David Robinson won three division titles before Duncan got there. They had the best record in the NBA in the 94/95 season. they made it to the WCF, losing to the eventual champion Rockets in 6.

In their worst full season with Robinson (before his injury) they won 47 games. Robinson won the MVP IN 95 and was first team all nba 4 times before Duncan got there.

Your definition of nothing must be different than everyone else's.

[WizStorm]

So, hey, let's a give it a try and not make a stupid trade.

And, if we're moving GA, let's get more than an aging SG (Carter) and a backup center (Gortat).

A straight salary dump is one legit argument for trading Gil (although i'm still against) but to trade Gil for a pair that would still be on the books for at least ~11 million next season and then for 7-8 million in the next 2 season's past that is not a prudent move. I absolutely hate the thought of pairing Wall with Carter with his questionable attitude and work ethic. I can't think of a worse player in the league for John Wall to be around early in his career and show him how to waste his god given talents. And while Gortat might have some value for a championship caliber team, his value completely falls off a cliff for a young rebuilding squad with his limited ceiling and overpriced, long-term contract. His presence would only serve to block efforts to groom a long-term solution for the position.

As much as I hate the thought of just dumping Gil for pure cap space, this type of deal would be far worse.

[nate33]

So, hey, let's a give it a try and not make a stupid trade.

And, if we're moving GA, let's get more than an aging SG (Carter) and a backup center (Gortat).

A straight salary dump is one legit argument for trading Gil (although i'm still against) but to trade Gil for a pair that would still be on the books for at least ~11 million next season and then for 7-8 million in the next 2 season's past is not a prudent move. I absolutely hate the thought of pairing Wall with Carter with his questionable attitude and work ethic. I can't think of a worse player in the league for John Wall to be around early in his career and show him how to waste his god given talents. And while Gortat might have some value for a championship caliber team, his value completely falls off a cliff for a young rebuilding squad with his limited ceiling and overpriced, long-term contract. His presence would only serve to block efforts to groom a long-term solution for the position.

As much as I hate the thought of just dumping Gil for pure cap space, this type of deal would be far worse.

Fair points. I'd try and flip Vince Carter for crappier expiring contracts that don't have the $4M salary hit in 2011/12. Peja + Songaila, maybe? Or Andrei Kirilenko?

Gortat would probably be movable. We could keep him while Seraphin develops and then, sooner or later, somebody will be in need of a competent big man at the trade deadline.

[sfam]

These are all understandable and reasonable concerns. But not, imo, good enough reasons to dump a talent like Gil for Carter/Gortat, cap room or the first good-looking babe that comes along. Teams are falling all over themselves trying to sign two superstars to their roster and the Wizards may already have two in Wall and Arenas...and some of us can't wait to unload the one who is already a proven star.

+1

This is really important to keep in mind. If Wall and Arenas mesh wonderfully, the conversations will be of a very different nature. Like everything else, it comes down to a risk assessment - what level of confidence do we have that Arenas' play will improve next to Wall? To me, if you at least gauge that his stock will improve, the only concern then is the one that Nate asks - what if his stock improves, but not sufficiently enough that we would want to keep him - will there still be cap space available by potential suitors to make a good deal at the trade deadline?

Its hard to say, but I'm also still enamored with my memories of Gil. If Gil and Wall get on as well as I think they can, I really think a lot of the trade talk will disappear. Yes, we have a very young roster, but young teams don't win championships. You need some vets in key roles to make it happen. Gil at 31 (when I think we will really be competing) may still be dynamite enough, especially considering he's taken off three years. We could do worse than having two superstars in Wall and GIl.

[verbal8]

If this trade were to happen now, the Wizards would likely have to take on a large, long-term contract (such as Gortat's) for the Magic to bite on an Arenas trade.

But if we do as I would hope and hang on to Arenas until he rebuilds his trade value (which he would undoubtedly do), then maybe the Magic (or another team) would take him on without having to get extra incentive.

Hell, by keeping our options open, maybe Arenas and Wall have this incredible unforeseen chemistry and we'd choose not to trade him at all.

I am not guaranteeing that they will have chemistry, but I think there is a good possibility that they will work well in the backcourt together. If there were 10 6'8"+ starting shooting guards in the NBA, I would be concerned. However they are not giving up a ton of size against most backcourts.

[BanndNDC]

What if management doesn't want to see if wall/arenas works. Because if it does work (like more than a few of us think) the whole dynamic and timeline changes. Trading arenas now allows them to manage expectations downward for the near future and keeps EG safe for a few years (cant expect them not to compete for the #1 overall).

[cdouglas]

To me, this is the equivalent of the Spurs in the mid 90s dumping David Robinson as soon as they drafted Ducan purely because Robinson had been injured the previous season (would have been idiotic, but there were some rumors of him being traded due to Duncan's imminent arrival back then).

First of all, Gilbert Arenas is no David Robinson. And more importantly, the Spurs were a championship contender the year before Robinson was hurt and had every reason to believe they would be a championship contender when he came back. By contract, the Wizards were a middling 43 win team when Arenas got hurt and have since jettisoned the three next-best players on his team.

I won't rehash all of my wonderfully logical and coherent arguments for making the deal. I'll just say that Arenas pushed the limits of being overpaid even when he was at his peak playing for a team that was built around him. Now, he costs even more, he has probably lost a step, and he plays on a team that has two quality starters at his natural position. It's hard to argue he is still worth his contract, at least to a team in our situation.

David Robinson had won NOTHING before he got Duncan. Neither has Arenas. Without Duncan, Robinson wins zero titles in his career. Will Wall and Arenas result in multiple titles? Nope, but they could gel and get a Run TMC vibe going a la Tim Hardaway/Mitch Richmond in the early 90s. If Blatche suddenly becomes a monster, and we luck out with Seraphin coming over and becoming the second coming of Barkley.....you never know maybe we make some noise in a year. Arenas also has enough tricks up his sleeve to pass on to Wall and vice versa. If they blend well, they could really feed off each other a la Hughes/Arenas at a whole other level. Vince Carter will only create a sullen mood and teach Wall the exact opposite of what it is to want to win. Arenas has something to prove, and I think anyone who has been a fan of this squad for 5+ years will realize Arenas is a special player, and not a fool, he'll be on his best behavior and do his best to redeem himself. Far from a bad influence.

I'm all for your arguments, and understand them, but I find it quite foolish to trade away an amazing talent for nothing, when you know the value of said talent will improve exponentially in 6 months. If you had a stock you knew would rise by 75% in 6 months would you sell it on the market purely because you had similar stock and wanted to diversify your portfolio even at a loss? No, of course not you would ride out the market, see the gains then diversify APPROPRIATELY AND WISELY.

Stupid move to trade him now. It would be an epic failure on part of the Wizards, and I will lose some faith in Leonsis if it happens. Although I doubt it, we actually have a good businessman as an owner for once. He would have kept Webber.

AMEN!! Finally I found someone on this board speaking my language! I WANT TO SEE ARENAS AND WALL PLAY TOGETHER BEFORE ANY TALK OF TRADING HIM... Thank You!!

[fishercob]

What if management doesn't want to see if wall/arenas works. Because if it does work (like more than a few of us think) the whole dynamic and timeline changes. Trading arenas now allows them to manage expectations downward for the near future and keeps EG safe for a few years (cant expect them not to compete for the #1 overall).

I don't think that's how Ted thinks. He's not afraid of accelerated timelines and expectations. I definitely don't think he's interested in making a "deliberately bad" basketball move. If John-Gilbert works, he wants to reap the benefits -- in any of a number of ways.