Retro POY '83-84 (Voting Complete)

[Gongxi]

I don't know if I'm feeling King. Certainly Magic and Bird, and if we're gonna compare apples to apples, how was he better than Dantley that year? One playoff series?

Timeout - King scoring in the regular season was 26.3 points per game on 62% TS in 34.6 minutes. You were the one touting Shaq's amazing ability to average 26-11 (.584 TS%) in the same amount of mpg as a good thing. Only in this case, that's closer to his contemporaries in mpg and I'm guessing Hubie Brown's affinity for depth in the rotation played a part in King's slightly few minutes.

With half as many rebounds, even fewer assists than that center, and worse D. It's not that King's season isn't great- if he's not top 5 he's very close- I'm just not understanding how one (King) is so good he's being voted on at #2 where Dantley has yet to get a mention, especially considering...

Notables per 75 possessions:

Code: Select all

Player   Pts  Reb  Ast  Relative TS%
Dantley  27.8  5.2  3.4  +10.9%
King     27.6  5.4  2.2  +7.6%
English  24.6  5.3  4.7  +2.7%
Bird     22.8  9.5  6.2  +0.9%
Moses    22.3  13.2 1.4  +2.3%
Isiah    20.1  3.8  10.5 -2.3%
Moncrief 20.0  6.4  4.3  +4.8%
Magic    16.0  6.6  11.9 +8.5%

That.

I'm not sure how you balance performance in a certain context, but I think it was easier for Dantley to score in Utah in his system and with his teammates than King in New York (I have little exposure to the 84 Jazz so someone else can weigh on this for further explanation).

Knicks ORtg finished at 107. Jazz at 109. King was doing a lot while heavily focused on by defenses -- he just couldn't be stopped. He was very good against the Celtics as well. King was an offensive machine and his playoffs were an extension of his regular season, not an aberration.

I'm not sure if that disparity is enough to explain it. It catapults King over Dantley to the point that King is #2 and Dantley is off the list?

Anyway, I'm seeing 8 guys for 5 spots and this is going to be tough:

Bird, Dantley, Dr. J, Isiah, KAJ, King, Magic, and Moses.

[LAKERS_1981]

You know guys you are picking Carmelo(king) over Magic. That is just not right.
You are talking about Man how played 12 postseason game and one that played 23 postseson game (and 7 against the great Boston team).

But hey dont have a vote.

p.s keep up the good work. This is fun read.(i dont always agree but that is just a good thing).

[semi-sentient]

I'm going to have to give more thought to Dantley/King. Numbers wise, they are pretty even. It's difficult to justify King at 2nd and Dantley out of the top 5 based on their numbers (RS / PS), so perhaps I simply overlooked him.

RE: Magic

When I did my write up, Magic's performance in the Finals was weighing heavily. I don't know if it's fair to punish him that much for costing the Lakers a pivotal game (knocking him below King), but it's something that has to weigh in regardless. I don't think that King was better than Magic or more impactful as a player, but he was very good that year and with Magic having a couple of late game meltdowns in the Finals it suddenly becomes very interesting between the two. King's team did push the Celtics to 7 games (more analysis needed though), and his team also upset the Pistons so that counts for something.

Those aren't my final rankings though and things are always subject to change, so we'll see what happens.

[JordansBulls]

Dantley and King both deserve to be on that top 5 list this season.

[shawngoat23]

1. Larry Bird - Easy choice
2. Bernard King - Terrific regular season, trumping Isiah in one of the classic duels despite injury and illness makes him an easy #2 in a weak year
3. Magic Johnson - Surprising to see him at #3, but Lakers were not their typical dominant team (54 wins) and he was characteristically "Tragic" in the Finals.
4. Adrian Dantley - Statistically as good as ever. I get the impression from older posters Dantley wasn't quite as good as his stats would suggest, but to his credit, he did lead the league in PER, WS, and WS/48 while taking his team to the #2 seed and the second round in a weak Western Conference. (Seems like a solid but not spectacular supporting cast on paper.)
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Solid year for the Captain, but nothing special. Seems good enough for 5th place this year.

HM: Isiah Thomas - I initially had him #5, out of deference to the MVP voters and as a nod to his spectacular playoff performance in another losing effort (seems to be the story of his career until 1989).
Other HMs: Sidney Moncrief, Julius Erving, Moses Malone. I can't give it to a 76er this year though. What a lame way to come off the championship defense of one of the greatest teams of all time. Getting shown up by Micheal Ray Richardson?!

[LAKERS_1981]

I'm going to have to give more thought to Dantley/King. Numbers wise, they are pretty even. It's difficult to justify King at 2nd and Dantley out of the top 5 based on their numbers (RS / PS), so perhaps I simply overlooked him.

RE: Magic

When I did my write up, Magic's performance in the Finals was weighing heavily. I don't know if it's fair to punish him that much for costing the Lakers a pivotal game (knocking him below King), but it's something that has to weigh in regardless. I don't think that King was better than Magic or more impactful as a player, but he was very good that year and with Magic having a couple of late game meltdowns in the Finals it suddenly becomes very interesting between the two. King's team did push the Celtics to 7 games (more analysis needed though), and his team also upset the Pistons so that counts for something.

Those aren't my final rankings though and things are always subject to change, so we'll see what happens.

Magic was better player then King in 1984 and that is why he should rank higher. King was a great scorer but Magic was doing so many things on the court. Leadership and court vison was great.
Yes Magic did make some bad playe in the 1984 series(but they would not be there if he was not on that team). But i think it was James Worthy that gave away that series. If he just keep that ball in game 2 we would be talking about Magic as number 1 in 1984. (Lakers would win if they win the first 2 in Boston).
So this is all Worthy.

[semi-sentient]

Yeah, Worthy deserves some blame as well, but he was a 2nd year player and not nearly as seasoned as MJ. There was all kinds of choking going on in that series though... lol. I don't remember which particular game it was, but at one point one of the Celtics players was taunting Worthy by putting his/her hands around his/her neck and choking themselves while Worthy was bricking free throws. They were all up in the Lakers heads that series.

Also, regarding Magic, being the better player doesn't necessarily mean he should be ranked higher. How you perform when it matters most (in this case it's the Finals for Magic) does impact the rankings. No, they wouldn't have been there without Magic, but the Knicks wouldn't have gotten past the Pistons (or possibly even made the playoffs) without King. As far as I can tell, King performed, but without any game analysis it's really hard to say. I'm looking forward to hearing how the Knicks were able to force the Celtics to 7 games.

This same reasoning is what's going to hurt LeBron in the 09-10 thread, more than likely. I don't know how far he'll fall (most likely just down the #2 behind Wade), but his meltdown against the Celtics is going to hurt.

[Doctor MJ]

I don't know if I'm feeling King. Certainly Magic and Bird, and if we're gonna compare apples to apples, how was he better than Dantley that year? One playoff series?

Well I think a big factor here is how you look at Dantley. If you go just by box score stats, he's one of the greats of all time, but he wasn't ever given that much respect. Why? Well, yeah lack of team success, which can always be said to have just had a horrible supporting cast, but Dantley's lack of correlation with success is kind of amazing.

'78-79 to '79-80, Dantley leaves the Lakers and goes to the Jazz. Lakers get much better, the Jazz see no appreciable change.

'85-86 to '86-87, Dantley leaves the Jazz and goes to the Pistons, Jazz actually get a little better, Pistons also get a little better but not on offense.

'88-89, Dantley leaves the Pistons and goes to the Mavs, Pistons turn into back-to-back champions, Mavs get significantly worse and their offense goes from elite to mediocre.

Now, in all of these cases you can say "but what about Magic making the Lakers better", "but what about Malone...", etc. The point isn't that he can't have any positive impact, it's that if he were as good as his stats indicate, he should have at least had comparable impact to these guys.

[Sedale Threatt]

Good post, but Dantley's lack of recognition really is startling. English too, for that matter. Not necessarily here -- I don't see either of them as Top 5 players. But their peaks really were outstanding. A shame they don't get more respect. With King, you can understand because of the injuries. But both of those guys put up outstanding numbers for a pretty good stretch. Compare that to Durant, who is apparently a lock for the Hall of Fame after one great season.

[Sedale Threatt]

The sick thing about the Finals this year, without the mistakes L.A. might have swept the Celtics. I know you can't take those away, and that screwups are part of the game, and that hypothetical reconstructions are generally crap.

Just not sure if there's ever been a comparable series in recent memory. L.A. was one bad pass away from taking a 2-0 lead, then killed Boston in Game 3, then did everything they could to give away a winnable Game 4. Instead, they go down in seven games.

[ronnymac2]

I'm going to have to give more thought to Dantley/King. Numbers wise, they are pretty even. It's difficult to justify King at 2nd and Dantley out of the top 5 based on their numbers (RS / PS), so perhaps I simply overlooked him.

RE: Magic

When I did my write up, Magic's performance in the Finals was weighing heavily. I don't know if it's fair to punish him that much for costing the Lakers a pivotal game (knocking him below King), but it's something that has to weigh in regardless. I don't think that King was better than Magic or more impactful as a player, but he was very good that year and with Magic having a couple of late game meltdowns in the Finals it suddenly becomes very interesting between the two. King's team did push the Celtics to 7 games (more analysis needed though), and his team also upset the Pistons so that counts for something.

Those aren't my final rankings though and things are always subject to change, so we'll see what happens.

Just some info.- King struggled mightily in games 1 and 2 of the Boston series. I believe he had epic performances in games 3 and 4. I'm not sure about game 5, and I'm pretty sure he was very good in game 6.

In game 7, in the youtube video I posted on the first page, it shows that King was really struggling with his shot and was being outplayed by Bird through 3 quarters IIRC. King was 4-11 or something like that.

[ronnymac2]

Question- How did Dantley come in seventh place in MVP voting? He played 79 games. Just a decent supporting cast. Decent, expected record with said cast. He won the scoring title and dominated statistically. Post-season doesn't count.

How did he only come in seventh? Not critiquing him (yet). I genuinely want to know why.

Edit: Also.....All-NBA second team. Find that weird, too.

[semi-sentient]

Thanks... that changes my view a little on King. What was it that made the series go 7 games? Were the Celtics just not that good as a team, particularly when you consider that the Lakers gave away 2 games in the Finals?

[Doctor MJ]

Just some info.- King struggled mightily in games 1 and 2 of the Boston series. I believe he had epic performances in games 3 and 4. I'm not sure about game 5, and I'm pretty sure he was very good in game 6.

In game 7, in the youtube video I posted on the first page, it shows that King was really struggling with his shot and was being outplayed by Bird through 3 quarters IIRC. King was 4-11 or something like that.

Man, wish we could see the box scores from all of these. King went for 35ppg on 62% TS in these playoffs, hard to imagine him having any really major struggles along the way.

[Doctor MJ]

Question- How did Dantley come in seventh place in MVP voting? He played 79 games. Just a decent supporting cast. Decent, expected record with said cast. He won the scoring title and dominated statistically. Post-season doesn't count.

How did he only come in seventh? Not critiquing him (yet). I genuinely want to know why.

Edit: Also.....All-NBA second team. Find that weird, too.

I'd like to see more analysis from people who were sentient at the time too.

As a baseline, Dantley finished in MVP standing basically in the place where you'd expect the "star" of the Jazz to fall if he was considered about as important to his team as other team stars. So he's not ignored, but there is a refusal to treat him like a "they wouldn't win a game without him" guy.

Interesting analysis of Dantley: http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=5288

My conclusion on Dantley in the past has largely been based on 1) knocked for poor defense, 2) knocked for team cancer, 3) impact on team offense is remarkably hard to find. Even with these big question marks I wouldn't "penalize" him, but it makes me not comfortable saying that the contemporaries of the time were crazy for not rating him higher, so my rating of him is largely staying in line with their perception.

[Sedale Threatt]

King's Celtics series:

G1: 26 points, only six in the second half (no box score)
G2: 13, 4 for 13
G3: 24, 11 for 22
G4: 43, 17 for 25
G5: 30, 10 for 19
G6: 44, 16 for 25
G7: 24, 8 for 17

Incidentally, Bird went for 39 points, 12 rebounds and 10 assists in the clincher.

[Sedale Threatt]

A somewhat enlightening piece on Dantley, after his trade in 1989:

Farewell to the Teacher. Farewell to that body, hard and strong, and that face, which always seemed halfway between amusement and anger.

Adrian Dantley came in with a bad reputation, and, ironically, he leaves in exchange for one. Known as selfish, moody and a ball-hog when he arrived in Detroit, he proved critics wrong, leading the Pistons to their best season ever, playing a role, muscling against giants, spinning and whirling and desiring his way to the hoop.

He even sent himself to the hospital once diving for a basketball. Diving? Adrian Dantley? And now, suddenly, he has been traded to Dallas for a guy named Mark Aguirre, who has a reputation for being . . . selfish, moody and a ball-hog.

...

And then there were the personality conflicts. Daly will say of Dantley,
"We got along fine," but they didn't. Daly found AD selfish and greedy and infatuated with money. And Dantley was almost laughable in his private criticism of Bill Laimbeer, a player he does not respect at all. So when Aguirre's name came up, and his personality was questioned, no doubt management said: "Hey, how much worse can it be that what we've got now? The guy's younger. His talent is there. He already likes Isiah. Why not?"

The trade was made.

Farewell to the Teacher. A risk. A shame. Not the trade itself, which could work out fine, who knows? But that the whole thing has to be shrouded in bad feelings. Dantley, visibly upset, his last chance at that precious championship ring probably gone, told reporters Wednesday morning in LA: "This has nothing to do with basketball."

"Does it have to do with personalities?" he was asked.

"No comment," he said.

http://mitchalbom.com/d/node/1139

[ItsMillerTime]

My rankings

1. Bird
2. Bernard King
3. Magic
4. Sidney Moncrief
5. Adrian Dantley

HM: Dr. J, Isiah Thomas, KAJ, Ruland

[Warspite]

The MVP voting has to be in context.

1. The Jazz had no TV contract. Adrian Dantley didnt get on TV untill the 2nd rd of the playoffs.
2. The NBA is still semi regional sport with its HQs in NY. The Ewing hype comes in a large part from the NY media and nobody benefits more than King.

In reality they are very similar players and had simialr yrs with there teams but because one plays in NYC and the other in SLC you get the differant results. Also a factor in for the bad WC and the utter contempt people had for Western conferance teams. In 1984 I heard people debate on how many Ws U of Georgetown could get and many believed they could make the playoffs or if the Lakers could win more than 40 games in the East.

[semi-sentient]

Interesting take.