Renouncing and Sign + Trading

[bgwizarfan]

So I know you can sign and trade a player once he is renounced and that you can't use the MLE, BAE, or DPE to do it, but I have a couple questions here.

First, can you use Larry Bird Rights to sign and trade a renounced player, even if you are under the cap? For instance, if the Bulls sign Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh and have $2 million left in cap room, would they be able to sign and trade Brad Miller with a starting salary of $6.6 million (even though that would take them over the cap)?

And then secondly, if the 1st part is allowed, would they be able to then trade Miller and accept a piece back in return that fit the 125% +100K rule? Let's say the Bulls sign and trade Miller's $6.6 million to the Orlando Magic for Brandon Bass ($4 million) and Ryan Anderson ($1.41 million). Would this be allowed? Or since the Bulls only have $2 million in space left, would they not be able to sign and trade miller in the 1st place or would they not be able to accept Bass' $4 million since it exceeds the $2 million in cap.

To me it's just interesting how a team could potentially have cap room, and then the right to sign and trade it's own free agent that they already renounced. If this is legal, it's almost like creaitng more cap room. Thanks in advance for the response.

[Three34]

First, can you use Larry Bird Rights to sign and trade a renounced player, even if you are under the cap? For instance, if the Bulls sign Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh and have $2 million left in cap room, would they be able to sign and trade Brad Miller with a starting salary of $6.6 million (even though that would take them over the cap)?

No. If they renounce him, there's no more Bird rights.

[bgwizarfan]

First, can you use Larry Bird Rights to sign and trade a renounced player, even if you are under the cap? For instance, if the Bulls sign Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh and have $2 million left in cap room, would they be able to sign and trade Brad Miller with a starting salary of $6.6 million (even though that would take them over the cap)?

No. If they renounce him, there's no more Bird rights.

This is from Larry's FAQ: After renouncing a player, a team can still trade the player in a sign-and-trade agreement (see question number 78). A sign-and-trade deal can be made even with players who have been renounced, but cannot be made when the player is signed using the Mid-Level, Bi-Annual or Disabled Player exceptions. Sign-and-trade contracts must be for three years or longer, but only the first season of the contract must be guaranteed.

So if you can't use MLE, BAE, DPE or any Bird Rights, then how can a team still sign and trade a player unless it involves usuing cap room?

[FGump]

To me it's just interesting how a team could potentially have cap room, and then the right to sign and trade it's own free agent that they already renounced. If this is legal, it's almost like creaitng more cap room. Thanks in advance for the response.

What you described may be an "interesting" scenario for you to chat about but it's not allowed. Is it still interesting?

[FGump]

So if you can't use MLE, BAE, DPE or any Bird Rights, then how can a team still sign and trade a player unless it involves usuing cap room?

The primary way would be to use cap room, but if you are simply intent on doing a snt on a renounced player without cap room, you could also use a minimum salary exception.

[Three34]

First, can you use Larry Bird Rights to sign and trade a renounced player, even if you are under the cap? For instance, if the Bulls sign Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh and have $2 million left in cap room, would they be able to sign and trade Brad Miller with a starting salary of $6.6 million (even though that would take them over the cap)?

No. If they renounce him, there's no more Bird rights.

This is from Larry's FAQ: After renouncing a player, a team can still trade the player in a sign-and-trade agreement (see question number 78). A sign-and-trade deal can be made even with players who have been renounced, but cannot be made when the player is signed using the Mid-Level, Bi-Annual or Disabled Player exceptions. Sign-and-trade contracts must be for three years or longer, but only the first season of the contract must be guaranteed.

So if you can't use MLE, BAE, DPE or any Bird Rights, then how can a team still sign and trade a player unless it involves usuing cap room?

In your scenario, you can sign and trade Brad Miller for $2 million. That's the cap space you have left. If there wasn't any left, you could sign and trade for the minimum. But that's it.

[bgwizarfan]

got it.. so in reality it works the same as re-signing a renounced player. only cap room or the minimum salary works.

and yes fgump...it is still interesting.

[M4P]

Hey Sham, quick question: Can you trade the right to swap picks? Ex. Houston has the right to swap picks with NY in 2011. Can they trade that right?

[tekkon]

I also have a question about signing and trading, regarding this article: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miam ... 0538.story

In it, I quote:

Should the Heat be able to pull off the maneuver, it would give Heat President Pat Riley unlimited resources to re-sign remaining current Heat free agents such as Udonis Haslem, Dorell Wright and Quentin Richardson -- whichever are not included in such a sign-and-trade -- without having to make those agreements work within the confines of the NBA's "soft" salary cap.

No matter the approach, James is locked into a Heat future.

In addition, such a maneuver would allow the Heat to retain its mid-level salary-cap exception for 2010-11, which it then could utilize to complete its planned signing of Washington Wizards free-agent swingman Mike Miller.

How would this work? Don't they need to renounce those players to make room for LBJ in a sign and trade?

[Three34]

Yes they do. They only way they can do what that article suggests is to sign and trade for both James and Bosh, so that they never actually go under the cap at any point. But good freaking luck trying to do that.

[tekkon]

Thanks for answering. The pretzels are in the mail.

[ranger001]

Yes they do. They only way they can do what that article suggests is to sign and trade for both James and Bosh, so that they never actually go under the cap at any point. But good freaking luck trying to do that.

But if they are technically over the cap how can they sign and trade for both James and Bosh without giving back salary to Toronto and Cleveland? Toronto is not going to take a 13m salary from Miami.

[Three34]

But if they are technically over the cap how can they sign and trade for both James and Bosh without giving back salary to Toronto and Cleveland?

Exactly. Hence, "good freaking luck with that".

It's all possible; its just all very unlikely.

[loserX]

Hey Sham, quick question: Can you trade the right to swap picks? Ex. Houston has the right to swap picks with NY in 2011. Can they trade that right?

I don't think so, if I understand your question...they can trade their pick, and the swap rights along with it.

So if Houston had the #18 pick, and New York had the #12 pick, and Miami had the #30 pick:
- Houston could trade the #18 pick to Miami, and then Miami could swap THAT pick with New York. So Miami would have #12 and #30, while New York got #18.
- Houston could NOT just keep their pick while sending a box of "swap rights" to Miami so that Miami gets #12 and New York gets #30.

Is that what you meant?

[M4P]

Hey Sham, quick question: Can you trade the right to swap picks? Ex. Houston has the right to swap picks with NY in 2011. Can they trade that right?

I don't think so, if I understand your question...they can trade their pick, and the swap rights along with it.

So if Houston had the #18 pick, and New York had the #12 pick, and Miami had the #30 pick:
- Houston could trade the #18 pick to Miami, and then Miami could swap THAT pick with New York. So Miami would have #12 and #30, while New York got #18.
- Houston could NOT just keep their pick while sending a box of "swap rights" to Miami so that Miami gets #12 and New York gets #30.

Is that what you meant?

Yeah basically.

So Houston has to trade their own pick to team X so that team X would have the right to swap picks with the Knicks?

[Three34]

But if they are technically over the cap how can they sign and trade for both James and Bosh without giving back salary to Toronto and Cleveland?

Exactly. Hence, "good freaking luck with that".

It's all possible; its just all very unlikely.

They got all three to take significant paycuts. Now, they have room for Miller and one more.

[FGump]

Using the reported numbers for Wade, Bosh, Lebron, Miami can actually give 25M to Miller (using 4.31 of cap) and still give 4.266 to Haslem ...and with the right sequence of contracts, I'm thinking Haslem may have been able to NOT get renounced, making him eligible for Bird limits - taking his possibles on a 4.266M starting salary to 32.3 (6 yr) or 25.81 (5).

[Jones buyout] 1.544

C - Anthony QO 1.06
PF - Bosh
SF - James
SG - Wade ...total of 3 = 43.168
PG - Chalmers 0.854
Backup - Miller 4.31
Backup - Haslem 4.266
Cap holds for players 8-13 who will each get the minimum = 2.842 (473K x 8)

[Three34]

All three have supposedly signed already, so Haslem must have been renounced.

[FGump]

If they have without signing Haslem first, then (a) yep he had to be renounced, and (b) Haslem can't get as much. Of course, if you're Miami and you can get him anyway for less, it's even better.

[Dunkenstein]

Sources told ESPN.com's Chad Ford that James and Bosh are both scheduled to make $14.5 million next season, while Wade will clock in at $14 million in 2010-11. If this is true, their team salary looks like this:

Big 3 - $43M
Anthony QO - $1.06M
Chalmers - $0.854
7 roster charges - $3.311M

That totals $48.225M, which leaves $9.819. That's not enough for Haslem's $10,650,000 cap hold. So he is no doubt being renounced as the Big 3 sign their contracts.

Reports are that Miller is being offered a 5 year contract in the $30M range. That would mean his contract would start around $5M, leaving about $5.3 for another player (once Miller signs, that frees up another $0.473 as a roster charge falls away). Maybe Haslem would settle for that. Also Derek Fisher is meeting tomorrow with Pat Riley. The Lakers are trying to cut his salary, and I'm sure he'd take most or all of that $5.3M if Haslem wouldn't.