Retro POY '82-83 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 best player seasons of '82-83. Some pointers:

-Change in schedule. We will now operate by splitting the week into thirds: Mon-Wed, Wed-Fri, Fri-Mon. I will label each thread with it's deadline.

-The voting panel is not officially closed. However, if you'd like to be a part of it, contact me - more dedicated, knowledgeable voters will always be wanted.

-This includes both regular and post-season. You should be weighing both in to some degree, and should not be ranking one star over another just because of how far each got in the playoffs.

-Vote sincerely. Do not move a player down in your voting to give another player an advantage. I would encourage every voter to give some explanations while they do their voting - but particularly if you have a top 5 that deviates strongly with the norm and you haven't expressed your thoughts on it earlier in the thread. If I'm not satisfied, I may ask you for more of an explanation - and it may come to actually booting people out of the project.

Some things to start us off:

Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1983.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1983.html
Award Voting http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... _1983.html

Topics
-Moses & Julius lead possibly GOAT team
-Celtics upset in sweep
-ABA's last hurrah: Moses, Julius, Gervin, Gilmore, Issel

[JordansBulls]

1. Moses Malone - Won League MVP and Finals MVP, 1st in WS Per 48 minutes in the season and playoffs, 1st in Win Shares in the season and playoffs and 1st in PER in the season and playoffs.

2. Sidney Moncrief - Finished 4th in MVP Voting, Finished 3rd in Win Shares on the Season, and 2nd in Win Shares Per 48 minutes on the season, 1st Team All NBA, 1st Team All Defense

3. Larry Bird - Finished 2nd in MVP Voting, Finished 2nd in Season WS and 3rd in WS Shares PER 48 minutes and 3rd in Season PER, 1st Team All NBA

4. Magic Johnson - Finished 3rd in MVP Voting, Finished 4th in Season and playoff Win Shares, 1st Team All NBA

5. Julius Erving - Finished 5th in MVP voting, 5th in PER and 4th in WS Per 48 minutes on the season. 1st Team All NBA

[Dr Positivity]

Pretty sure I'm putting Moses, Bird, Magic, Moncrief top 4 in that order. Last spot contenders include Gervin, Erving, Kareem, English. Leaning towards Kareem but he only played 32 minutes a game and I can't shake Moses assplanting him in the Finals.

[ronnymac2]

^^^Moses didn't assplant him in the finals. At least I don't think. Depends on what "assplant" means to the individual poster.

He just physically dominated Jabbar on the glass. Jabbar was able to get clean shots off on Moses- just about anytime he wanted.

[JordansBulls]

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1983.htm#

Didn't realize Magic only shot 40% in the finals that year.

[semi-sentient]

1982-83 Candidates

Regular Season

Code: Select all

Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Moses    78  37.5  24.5  .578  15.3   1.3  1.1  2.0  3.4  15.1  25.1
Magic    79  36.8  16.8  .603   8.6  10.5  2.2  0.6  3.8  12.5  23.0
Bird     79  37.7  23.6  .561  11.0   5.8  1.9  0.9  3.0  14.0  24.1
Moncrief 76  35.7  22.5  .602   5.8   3.9  1.5  0.3  2.6  13.2  22.6
English  82  36.4  28.4  .561   7.3   4.8  1.4  1.5  3.2  10.3  24.1
Erving   72  33.6  21.4  .566   6.8   3.7  1.6  1.8  2.7  10.9  23.1
Kareem   79  32.3  21.8  .619   7.5   2.5  0.8  2.2  2.5  10.9  23.6

Post Season

Code: Select all

Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Moses    13  40.3  26.0  .587  15.8   1.5  1.5  1.9  3.1  2.8   25.7
Magic    15  42.9  17.9  .555   8.5  12.8  2.3  0.8  4.3  2.1   20.6
Bird      6  40.0  20.5  .478  12.5   6.8  2.2  0.5  3.2  0.7   20.3
Moncrief  9  41.9  18.9  .503   6.7   3.7  2.0  0.3  3.0  0.9   15.4
English   7  38.6  25.9  .522   6.3   6.0  0.6  1.0  3.0  0.5   18.4
Erving   13  37.9  18.4  .496   7.6   3.4  1.1  2.0  3.0  1.2   16.0
Kareem   15  39.9  27.1  .608   7.7   2.8  1.1  3.7  3.3  2.1   22.8

Awards Recognition / Misc

Code: Select all

Player      MVP     DPOY   All-NBA   All-Defense    Team Record
================================================================
Moses       1       -      1st       1st            65-17
Magic       3       -      1st       ---            58-24
Bird        2       -      1st       2nd            56-26
Moncrief    4       1      1st       1st            51-31
English     6       -      2nd       ---            45-37
Erving      5       -      1st       ---            65-17
Kareem      10      -      2nd       ---            58-24

Early Rankings:

1. Moses Malone - League and Finals MVP, led his team to the best record in the league and a championship, and straight dominated statistically. He put up 26/18 in the NBA Finals against Kareem to put a stamp on a great season, so he's pretty clearly #1.
   
   
2. Magic Johnson - Finished 3rd in MVP voting and led his team to the 2nd best record behind the Sixers and to the NBA Finals, once again running the best offense in the league. The only downside to Magic's season appears to be his inefficient scoring in the Finals.
   
   
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Going into this year I figured Kareem would be in the 4/5 range, but looking at what he did in the playoffs I'm not sure how I can have him any lower. He lost the match-up with Moses in the Finals (convincingly), but his overall numbers are too good to ignore.
   
   
4. Larry Bird - The MVP runner-up and led his team to the 3rd best record in the league. I'll be interested in hearing why the Celtics flamed out against the Bucks, once again losing with HCA. Bird's numbers were not so hot in the playoffs, particularly his TS%, and his scoring dropped off as well.
   
   
5. Sidney Moncrief - Winner of the first ever DPOY award and led his team to a 51-31 record, in addition to an upset seep of the Celtics in the 2nd round. His numbers were rather poor though, but seeing as how English and Erving also fell off considerably I don't think I can give them the not over Mr. Squid.

[sp6r=underrated]

I'm going to re-read some of the previous posts and review the Celtics series with Milwaukee. Bird's overall numbers took a huge hit in the PS this year. His dip this year and next was as bad as what got people to hammer the crap out of Robinson.

Moses is number 1 and KAJ is my number 2 in all likelihood. I'm not sure were I'm going from there.

[Doctor MJ]

I want to chime in briefly on something that's been mentioned: Lakers didn't have to play many tough teams to get to the finals most years. This is a natural counterargument when someone brings up Boston's playoff disappointments.

Here's the thing though: No one argues for Lakers on the basis of their playoff overachievement. The Lakers are just another team. They got upset a couple times, they pulled off the upset a couple times. And Boston's not just a team that got upset a couple times, they have by far the most embarassing record regarding this in all of history. Upset 7 times, and never pulling off an upset.

Now, one of the reasons I like this format we're using is that people are forced to either holistically bash a team for playoff disappointment, or ignore the disappointment. When Boston does well in the post-season, they justifiably get praised. In a year like this one, I think it at the very least needs to be discussed without concerns for how easy or hard the route was for others.

Boston got upset again - this time in a sweep - and Bird's numbers once again took a hit. What do y'all make of it?

[JordansBulls]

I want to chime in briefly on something that's been mentioned: Lakers didn't have to play many tough teams to get to the finals most years. This is a natural counterargument when someone brings up Boston's playoff disappointments.

Here's the thing though: No one argues for Lakers on the basis of their playoff overachievement. The Lakers are just another team. They got upset a couple times, they pulled off the upset a couple times. And Boston's not just a team that got upset a couple times, they have by far the most embarassing record regarding this in all of history. Upset 7 times, and never pulling off an upset.

Now, one of the reasons I like this format we're using is that people are forced to either holistically bash a team for playoff disappointment, or ignore the disappointment. When Boston does well in the post-season, they justifiably get praised. In a year like this one, I think it at the very least needs to be discussed without concerns for how easy or hard the route was for others.

Boston got upset again - this time in a sweep - and Bird's numbers once again took a hit. What do y'all make of it?

Which is why Moncrief is my #2 this year. Not only that but he was all nba 1st team and defense and was 3rd in WS as well. To sweep Boston and do so without HCA was incredible. That hadn't happened with an elite team like Boston in all the years Bird was there.

[An Unbiased Fan]

How in the World did Boston get swept with HCA? Not sure what to do with Bird this year.

[KING JAMES1978]

Some of the best scoring performances 1982-1983 season
Season:
Adrian Dantley Utah vs. Chicago 04/12/82 =57 pts
Kelly Tripucka Detroit vs. Chicago 29/01/83 = 56 pts
Larry Bird Boston vs. Indiana 30/03/83 =53 pts
Joe Barry Carroll Golden State vs. Utah 05/03/83 = 52 pts
Kiki Vandeweghe Denver vs. Phoenix 01/01/83 =49 pts
Mike Woodson Kansas City vs. Houston 20/02/83 =48 pts
George Gervin San Antonio vs. Phoenix 07/11/82 =47 pts
Reggie Theus Chicago vs. Boston 22/12/82 =46 pts
Isiah Thomas Detroit vs. San Antonio 08/02/83 =46 pts
Alex English Denver vs. L.A.Lakers 21/11/82 =45 pts
George Gervin San Antonio vs. Dallas 27/11/82 =45
George Gervin San Antonio vs. Chicago 26/11/82 =44 pts
Julius Erving Philadelphia vs. Detroit 11/12/82 = 44 pts
Mark Aguirre Dallas vs. Portland 06/02/83 =44 pts
Isiah Thomas Detroit vs. Denver 25/03/83 = 44 pts
Gene Banks San Antonio vs. L.A.Lakers 13/04/83 =44 pts

Playoffs:
Alex English Denver vs. Phoenix 24/04/83 = 42 pts
George Gervin San Antonio vs. Denver 26/04/83 = 42 pts
Bernard King New Jersey vs. New York 20/04/83 = 40 pts

[shawngoat23]

This one is tough. Moses is #1, and that's the only spot set in stone. There are currently 5 guys for me in contention for the last 4 spots.

[penbeast0]

Like everyone else, it's Mr. Fo Fi Fo, then everyone else,

1. Moses
2. Moncrief -- sweeping the Celtics, DPOY, and still an impressive offensive performance (though his shooting efficiency dropped drastically during playoffs which made this tougher)

3. Magic -- Better than Kareem and it should go to a Laker
4. Bird -- Not one of his better years but no one else stepped up and took it away
5. Buck Williams -- Larry Brown did another great coaching job but Buck was the main man for that .600 New Jersey team with pretty mediocre help

[TrueLAfan]

1. Moses. The year where he was the most valuable. As I said, it was also a confluence of events; he had a brilliant coach, a system and players that made the most of his (amazing) strengths while minimizing his weaknesses, and benefited from the rise in physical play play that culminated in about 1983. He had other years that were better statistically, but I don't think he had any other year that was better; he's a clear #1 for me.
2. Bird. If I remember correctly, Bird had a bad elbow in the Milwaukee series...I could be wrong, but that's what I remember. What I know is that Bird got played even--even outpoayed slightly--by the Bucks SF. Normally, this would be bad—except Marques Johnson was one of the 10-15 best players in the league at the time. So I'm not holding Bird's playoff stumble more or less than Magic's Finals series. And I think Bird had the better RS.
3. Erving, Could Moses have won the title without Julius Erving. Oh, hell no. Moses is not a talkative or, in generally, sentimental and reflective guy. Even Mo said he had to win it for the Doc. Numbers can never show how important that kind of leadership and respect is to a team. The 21.4-6.8-3.7 on 52% shooting with 100+ steals and blocks don't hurt either. Even if he only played 34 mpg and missed 10 games, I'm going with Doc here and I'm very sure I've made the right choice.

And I've got 4, 5, and 6 in a virtual dead heat. Here's what I'm thinking now.

4. Magic. I'm still going back and forth between Magic and Kareem here on the Lakers here. And I think they w re back and forth in terms of value at this point. In 1980, Kareem was the better player. In 1985, it was Magic. I've always liked Magic better...but I'm a little suspicious of that now. It's cliché to talk about Kareem getting manhandled by Moses in the finals...but at the time, I remember thinking Kareem had a better Finals than Magic. But Magic played about 350 more minutes during the RS than Kareem.
5. Kareem. Yeah, Kareem had a lousy rebounding Finals against Moses. He also averaged 27 a game on Malone, had his backup C go down in game 2 of the Finals, and had Kurt Rambis momentarily forget how to grab rebounds. I thought Kareem had a better finals than Magic at the time. Now, looking back, looking over some of the games and the boxes...I feel the same way.

HM that is so close: Moncrief. This was the year it became the Squid's team (it had been Marques Johnson's team—and, like I said erlier, Marques was still a hell of a player). But Moncrief played poorly in the playoffs too. At the time, I don't think I would have taken him over Magic or Kareem. He's moved up some in my opinion since...but I don't know if it's enough to overtake either of the two Lakers.

Also great: English, Sikma, Gervin, Ruland

[ronnymac2]

From the other thread.....

I watched the Spurs vs. Lakers game on youtube. It's the WCF, game 6. Some observations:

Magic Johnson dominated despite scoring about two points. He controlled the pace of the game and had about 15 assists, eight rebounds, and two steals (something like that...they didn't show stats a lot during games). He played disruptive defense. The Lakers offensive rebounding was fantastic, and Magic "Young Buck" Johnson was a major reason. He was the impetus with his physical play.

He didn't score a lot, but he played great in an elimination game in the WCF. His overall playoff averages in scoring suffer, especially with such a small sample size relative to a regular season. Just keep that in mind when looking at anybody's playoff stats.

Jabbar vs. Gilmore was actually a really good matchup. Gilmore's post game is mechanical and has no creativity, but he is long, lefty, and has a nice touch. Powerful, too. Sort of like Dwight without the explosion, though to be fair, this is Gilmore after leg injuries I believe. He is very good on the glass and on defense. Uses his length well, though his mobility is hampered by having to stand near Jabbar all the time.

Jabbar is great. Gilmore pushed him farther out than normal. Kareem was fantastic in iso's especially in the first quarter. Hit big shots in the second half. I've watched Finals game from this year, too, and I can see that Jabbar is better scoring the ball this year than 84 and 85 in isolation. He isn't as reliant on the guards. You can just throw him the ball even against Gilmore and Moses and he'll score on them. He was still fantastic in 84 and 85, but in 83, he was even better. Near 1980 form. He DID score an league playoff-high 27 ppg going up against two of the best centers in the game the majority of the time.

I really like San Antonio's team and style- they are cool to watch. Los Angeles is clearly the better team, but I like SA's build. Johnny Moore runs the team beautifully and allows Gervin to play off the ball all the time as a finisher. Mike Mitchell is very good, and Gene Banks is solid. Mitchell can score with versatility, and Banks can handle the ball well. Mike Dunleavy is the best shooter in the league this season and comes off the bench. Gilmore doesn't do anything outside of what he knows he can do, which SA can afford with their offensive talent. Powerful finisher and is the defensive anchor. He makes them respectable on defense.

Then, Gervin is the high powered scoring machine. He's always in attack mode. It's always better to make a scorer like that a finisher, and SA does just that. Gervin never holds the ball much. He gets it in good positions and attacks. He's not a bad passer either. Not elite, and definitely not able to play point or create like Kobe, T-Mac, Wade, etc., but all right. His ball-handling leaves something to be desired compared to other elite wings. Average rebounder. Absolutely no intensity on defense. For some reason, he's guarding Magic most of the game, and despite having height and length, he doesn't even put his hands up most of the time. He's the anti-Pippen. To be fair, he did make a couple of deflections off the ball.

Gervin really is similar to Kevin Durant. Great scorer. Amazing scorer. Same type of impact in other areas, except Durant is a better rebounder and defender.

Gervin didn't have a great shooting night in this game, or in game five apparently. He only averaged about 23 a game in the series I believe. Jabbar scored 30 in game 5.

[ronnymac2]

And...

According to an announcer broadcasting MIL vs. BOS in 83, the late, great John Wooden said that Larry Bird was possibly the best player in the game at the time. Interesting.

Games 3 and 4 are on youtube. Bird completely missed game 2 with the flu and wasn't quite himself in game 3, though he put up something like 20/10/6/6. He played well in game 4. He's almost guaranteed a top 2 spot from me. I actually think he might be the best player this year, but Moses wins just about every tie-breaker, is close as a player, and Bird missed a crucial playoff game. Moses will likely be first.

The Bucks completely destroyed Boston in game 4. Their athleticism is off the charts, and they're a very well put together team. They were blocking everything inside and dominated the offensive glass against Bird, Maxwell, Parish, and younger Mchale. Moncrief, Marques Johnson, Catchings, Lister, and Bridgeman are just all over the place with quick leaping ability and cutting off the ball. Doug Collins mentions that Bob Lanier is the heart of the team and protects everyone. He head-locked Mchale once. Strong as an ox. I'd have liked to see Lanier face Shaq.

Sidney Moncrief has his best shot at making my top five this year. This is possibly his best year in the regular season in terms of scoring, field goal %, and PER. He won DPOY. He was all-nba first team, fourth in MVP voting, and top 10 in PER. He scores well in other advanced stats, too. When you look and see a swingman that can board like a SF and play pg and gives you 22/6/4/1.5/52%/8fta/all-time elite defense while clearly doing what is best for the team on a squad loaded with individual talent, you notice it. He dominated in games 3 and 4 vs. Boston. He dropped 25 on Boston despite Boston actually triple-teaming him at points game 4.

Marques Johnson is great, too. Scored 33 in game 4. It is clear that the way to play Squid is to give him the jump-shot. He's a fantastic slasher and and powerful post player though. Great off the ball and hammers the offensive glass.

I'm actually impressed by what Philly did. They actually beat this team 4-1. Even for a GOAT team, MIL would have been a touch matchup for anybody. I'm going to guess Moncrief's struggles shooting the ball (44% for entire playoffs) were against Philly. I'm not penalazing him too hard when he faces a GOAT team with Moses, Erving, and Jones all serving as elite co-anchors and Cheeks being a great defender himself.

Moses, Erving, Magic, KAJ, Isiah, Moncrief, and English are the big contenders. Most likely dropping English off though, despite the scoring title. Dantley missed 60 games and King didn't impress more than Isiah/Erving/Jabbar/Squid.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpZwUJOMCto

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJaxCsvK554

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q1b7CEtFg8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qA9hbkepBk

[ronnymac2]

Moses will likely be my number one. And Bird will likely be number two. I think Magic has a spot, too.

I'm taking Isiah out of the running. I didn't dock him for being a playoff rookie last year....although, I don't usually dock playoff rookies if they have great performances. I usually just kind of excuse them if they perform poorly. Well, not excuse them, but I chalk it up to having no experience. Isiah in 83 doesn't make the playoffs. He doesn't have the recognition. He "only" averages 8 assists. Moncrief/Erving/KAJ is too damn high a level to get to for a second year player who hasn't done anything to differentiate himself, doesn't have support of stats or contemporary viewers, and hasn't made the playoffs.

Being the biggest Alex English fan in the world, I hate to say this, but- Alex isn't in the running either. The others were too good. English is still a borderline GOAT to me though. He was better than Jordan at one point......

Jabbar/Erving/Moncrief for the last two spots. That is what I must decide. I think Jabbar has a spot, too. It's really Erving vs. Moncrief. I want to hear more posters. The respect Moncrief was getting was making me think Squid. Then TrueLA said some nice things about Julius and left Squid out.


TrueLaFan- Why do you think Moncrief didn't perform well? I thought he was brilliant. He played great against Boston. Most likely, his fg% only went down against the stellar defense of Moses and Jones inside with Erving, Jones, and Cheeks on the perimeter. That'll hurt a slasher like Sidney. Should we really penalize him for that much though? Against a GOAT team with THAT defense? Especially since that same Philly defense held Magic Johnson to 19/12 on 40% with 6 turnovers per game when Magic had Jabbar on his team.

[ItsMillerTime]

Moses for sure is number 1. Bird, Moncrief and Magic will probably be the order of the next 3, and either Dr J, Kareem, Dantley, or Gervin will be the 5th spot.

[Gongxi]

My early rankings are Moses at 1, Magic at 2, followed by Bird, KAJ, and Dr. J.

[shawngoat23]

I reserve the right to change things up:

1. Moses Malone
2. Sidney Moncrief
3. Julius Erving
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird

Strong HM: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Moses was clearly #1 for me, everyone else was a tossup. In fact, spots #2 through #6 were so close to me that I initially had Kareem at #2 on the strength of better playoff performance than the other competitors before I removed him in my final ballot. In the end, I would have liked to seen him play more minutes in the regular season, and I get the feeling that contemporary MVP voters thought so too, given his #10 spot in MVP balloting. So I'm moving him down to honorable mention as a nod to them, and also because I recognize that he was outplayed by Moses Malone. Granted, the biggest disparity was on the boards where no one could really stop the Chairman, and Kareem otherwise performed quite well on the offensive end, but I don't think a solid postseason run (on the losing end of a Finals sweep) is quite enough to bump him over everyone else who had slightly better regular seasons, and more importantly, played much bigger minutes. That being said, I wouldn't have a problem if anyone wanted to put him as high as #2 either.

Moncrief finally gets some love from me in this project. Solid 51-win regular season, excellent advanced stats, finished a pretty close #4 in MVP balloting, but his biggest impact was on the other end where he was DPOY and anchored an excellent Bucks defense that absolutely dominated the Celtics. These Bucks were legit, being the only team to take a game from the Sixers, and in fact, quite a few of the games in the series came down to questionable calls. The Sixers otherwise steamrolled through the rest of the league, so I'll give Moncrief a boost here.

Not sure where to put Erving relative to the other top candidates. He was solidly productive on easily the best team of the league this year. Is that enough to put him over Magic or Bird? I don't know, this Sixers team was stacked enough that I have no doubt that Magic or Bird would be able to win in Erving's place (although I'm not certain the team would be better). But at the same time, the Doc was no slouch himself, doing a little bit of everything and while Moses was the best player, Dr. J was the leader.

Magic had a great season until they hit that Sixers juggernaut, and he still played pretty well there, but that stifling Philadelphia defense held him below the standards you'd expect from one of the game's greats. I'm not certain he was necessarily better than Kareem throughout the season, but he was certainly on the court more, and in the end, that's why I'm putting him in my top 5.

Bird was easily the 2nd best player in the league throughout the regular season, but he was grounded against an excellent Bucks team in an embarrassing sweep. I can't justify moving him out of the top 5, but at the same time, he goes to the bottom of the pack.

Really, I want to reiterate any of my #2 through #6 guys could be shuffled around, and this is how I like the list right now.