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Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space?

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Re: Arenas for Vince? 

Post#301 » by Spence » Thu Jul 1, 2010 7:57 pm

fishercob wrote:Who would you rather have today:

Arenas for 4 yrs, $80M
Joe Johnson for 6 yrs, $119M

I have a feeling that in a few weeks Gil's contract is going to look sane compared to some others out there.

Good point. I don't think Arenas' contract is going to look good any time soon, but that Joe Johnson deal is nuts. Darko -- that dude lives a charmed life. Gooden got far too much, in my opinion. Rudy Gay got 5 years and $82 million [$16.4 per]. He's a nice player and he could very well blow up into a big star. If he just stays a very good player, though, that's a hefty deal.
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Re: Arenas for Vince? 

Post#302 » by nate33 » Thu Jul 1, 2010 8:00 pm

Krizko Zero wrote:I don't get it. Who sets the barometer for what player is worth what amount? Surely more than 90% of the players who are paid MAX $$$ don't deserve it. Isn't that more of a problem with the system? I mean, I gather that most of you think only the Top 5 players in the league should get MAX money, and you all seem to think said player should be traded immediately or outright cut (CBA changes permitting) should they incur an injury.

I don't get it. If everybody who gets MAX money is considered overpaid, the only choice a player like Gilbert for instance, has is to turn down the money when it's offered to them and say you know what, I think I'm only worth X amount. Do you really expect that to ever happen?

How is it that every one can be overpaid? If every one is overpaid, isn't that just the average?

Yes, many of the people who are paid max salaries are indeed overpaid.

Because of the max salary limitation, there are a handful of max players who are underpaid. Guys like Lebron, Wade, Dwight, Kobe, Duncan, etc. are bargains relative to their salary.

There's also a tier of just-over-the-MLE players who are bargains because they are worth more but nobody besides their existing team had the cap flexibility to exceed the MLE to sign them. So their existing team went slightly above the MLE to retain them, or they agreed to go somewhere else for an MLE salary, knowing that they were being underpaid. Guys like Anderson Varajeo, Ron Artest, Shane Battier, John Salmons fall into this category.

Finally, there's a tier of successful rookies who are worth much more than what they are paid. Those guys are obvious. Basically, any good player on a rookie contract.

If you argue that the league as a whole is paid exactly what is worth, then there must necessarily be a group of overpaid players who offset the underpaid players I mentioned above. The clusters of overpayment generally occur at the MLE and at the max salary.
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Re: Arenas for Vince? 

Post#303 » by mhd » Thu Jul 1, 2010 8:29 pm

Considering the Boozer rumors, I don't think this trade is on the radar.
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Should Arenas be Traded? 

Post#304 » by nate33 » Thu Jul 1, 2010 8:33 pm

mhd wrote:Considering the Boozer rumors, I don't think this trade is on the radar.

Agreed. This has become the "Should Arenas be Traded?" thread.

What's on the radar?

I'm thinking

Arenas for Curry + TPE

or

Arenas for Kris Humphries + TPE
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Re: Arenas for Vince? 

Post#305 » by mhd » Thu Jul 1, 2010 8:37 pm

I think Prokorov is a smart dude. Assuming Lebron doesn't go there, I'd sign David Lee. Lee would be an excellent big to rotate between Lopez and Favors. Lee gets to stay in the NY area, while getting paid. Think back to Indy and the Davis brothers and Smits.

To fill the SF void, sign a cheap vet who knows how to play (Rasual Butler as an example). Sign some vets to fill the bench, and that team could compete for a late playoff spot, while maintaining cap flexibility.
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Re: Arenas for Vince? 

Post#306 » by pancakes3 » Fri Jul 2, 2010 12:03 am

prokorov is a brilliant man, but a self-admitted neophyte when it comes to NBA players. he has no idea who's who outside of megastars like LBJ, Kobe, Wade, and is really only there as a financial overseer. This is perfect, really because you don't want a meddlesome owner (helloooooo dan snyder). The system of checks and balances between the GM and the Owner work best when their spheres of influences are well defined.
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Re: Arenas for Vince? 

Post#307 » by tontoz » Fri Jul 2, 2010 2:57 am

Spence wrote:
fishercob wrote:Who would you rather have today:

Arenas for 4 yrs, $80M
Joe Johnson for 6 yrs, $119M

I have a feeling that in a few weeks Gil's contract is going to look sane compared to some others out there.

Good point. I don't think Arenas' contract is going to look good any time soon, but that Joe Johnson deal is nuts.



Given that deals can't be signed until the 8th i am not taking anything at face value right now. However assuming it is true that contract is pretty hard to justify, and i am a big fan of JJ (hence the avatar). However letting him walk isn't a very attactive option either. The Hawks have made so many personnel blunders that they are in a very awkward position now.

Everyone knows about the disaster of the 2005 draft, picking Marvin over Paul/Deron. But the 2006 offseason was a train wreck as well. They had the 5th pick, $20 million in capspace, and a valued free agent (Harrington). They wound up with Shelden Williams (picked ahead of Brandon Roy), Speedy Claxton, Lorenzen Wright, and a top 10 protected first rounder which turned into Acie Law the next year. Ugh

Edit :The Hawks had the opportunity to trade Harrington for Nene straight up at the trade deadline that year. Seriously
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Re: Arenas for Vince? 

Post#308 » by Hoopalotta » Fri Jul 2, 2010 10:05 am

tontoz wrote:That contract is pretty hard to justify, and i am a big fan of JJ (hence the avatar). However letting him walk isn't a very attractive option either. The Hawks have made so many personnel blunders that they are in a very awkward position now.


You definitely have come to the right board to share these kinds of stories!

Been there, done that. :wink:
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Re: Arenas for Vince? 

Post#309 » by willbcocks » Fri Jul 2, 2010 10:17 am

Hoopalotta wrote:
tontoz wrote:That contract is pretty hard to justify, and i am a big fan of JJ (hence the avatar). However letting him walk isn't a very attractive option either. The Hawks have made so many personnel blunders that they are in a very awkward position now.


You definitely have come to the right board to share these kinds of stories!

Been there, done that. :wink:


This is called the bounced in the first round dilemma. No one has figured out how to solve it.
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Re: Arenas for Vince? 

Post#310 » by Hoopalotta » Tue Jul 6, 2010 4:36 pm

From the Mike Lee chat:

Wizards and Agent Nine

Hey Mike can you help shed a little light on the cloudy speculation and rumors surrounding the Wizards supposedly trying to shop Gilbert?

Michael Lee writes:

Well, they have committed $111 million to a guy who has played 47 games over the past three seasons and put nearly every person in the front office in danger of losing his job after bringing guns to the locker room in an embarrassing incident that damaged the franchise's reputation. Not only that, he said he didn't want to play for that franchise any longer. Do you find it odd that the team would consider moving him?

That being said, the Wizards would certainly consider any deal for Arenas, but so far they haven't found any takers. They made a phone call to Orlando to see if there was any interest, given Arenas's relationship with Magic GM Otis Smith, but he's not ready to make a move like that right now. I think they believe that Arenas will be a part of the team next season - unless some team is desperate enough to deal for him after striking out this summer.


http://live.washingtonpost.com/nba-free-agency.html

This whole thing makes little to no sense.

Why is Leonsis making public statements that would undermine his personal credibility if Gil has been offered? There's so many breaches with reason going on with this whole thing that I wouldn't even know where to begin. Seems like moving Gil "at the trade deadline" after coaching the fanbase to "re-embrace" Gil and buy number 9 jerseys is an epic "WTF?" moment.

Maybe the explanation is in chronology or something (like, "they tried to move Gil, but now they think they can't so they said the wont"?).
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Re: Arenas for Vince? 

Post#311 » by MJ7 » Tue Jul 6, 2010 4:41 pm

No thank you. Vince has no motivation whatsoever, Gilbert is going to blow up next year, I can feel it.
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Re: Arenas for Vince? 

Post#312 » by WizStorm » Tue Jul 6, 2010 4:58 pm

Hoopalotta wrote:From the Mike Lee chat:

Wizards and Agent Nine

Hey Mike can you help shed a little light on the cloudy speculation and rumors surrounding the Wizards supposedly trying to shop Gilbert?

Michael Lee writes:

Well, they have committed $111 million to a guy who has played 47 games over the past three seasons and put nearly every person in the front office in danger of losing his job after bringing guns to the locker room in an embarrassing incident that damaged the franchise's reputation. Not only that, he said he didn't want to play for that franchise any longer. Do you find it odd that the team would consider moving him?

That being said, the Wizards would certainly consider any deal for Arenas, but so far they haven't found any takers. They made a phone call to Orlando to see if there was any interest, given Arenas's relationship with Magic GM Otis Smith, but he's not ready to make a move like that right now. I think they believe that Arenas will be a part of the team next season - unless some team is desperate enough to deal for him after striking out this summer.


http://live.washingtonpost.com/nba-free-agency.html

This whole thing makes little to no sense.

Why is Leonsis making public statements that would undermine his personal credibility if Gil has been offered? There's so many breaches with reason going on with this whole thing that I wouldn't even know where to begin. Seems like moving Gil "at the trade deadline" after coaching the fanbase to "re-embrace" Gil and buy number 9 jerseys is an epic "WTF?" moment.

Maybe the explanation is in chronology or something (like, "they tried to move Gil, but now they think they can't so they said the wont"?).
Wow ... sounds like Michael Lee is regurgitating some bitter ramblings from the EG or Pollin side of things. Yeah ... let's pin all of last season woes on a single incident and single person. It's not like the team was already on a cellar dweller trajectory prior to the incident and that the front office was already in line for some serious finger pointing after yet another failed season. If anything, I think the gun incident actually helped the front office in finding their scapegoat and getting yet another chance to run the ball-club. As for Gil wanting to leave the franchise, the way that the Wizards ownership treated Gil last season why wouldn't Gil talk about no longer wanting to play for them?

I think Ted taking over has dramatically decreased the bitterness between ownership/management and Gil. Lee is now simply rehashing old arguments and feeling or he found a still bitter source for his ramblings. Now, I have no doubt that if the right deal came along that Gil would be dealt, but I don't buy the "trade at all costs to get this cancer off the team" scenario that Lee is trying to portray here.
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Re: Arenas for Vince? 

Post#313 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Tue Jul 6, 2010 5:54 pm

pancakes3 wrote:prokorov is a brilliant man, but a self-admitted neophyte when it comes to NBA players. he has no idea who's who outside of megastars like LBJ, Kobe, Wade, and is really only there as a financial overseer. This is perfect, really because you don't want a meddlesome owner (helloooooo dan snyder). The system of checks and balances between the GM and the Owner work best when their spheres of influences are well defined.


Thinking of Prokhorov, that Billionaire song comes to mind. "So frickin bad" it would be nice to be in the position that guy's in to influence the megastars or stars.

Prokhorov does seem to have the humility to not be overbearing (like Marc Cuban can be), too. I'm not buying the self-deprecating humor one bit with that man. He's smart and really funny, too.
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Re: Arenas for Vince? 

Post#314 » by nate33 » Tue Jul 6, 2010 6:10 pm

I don't think there is much inconsistency or mystery on the Wizards' stance with Gilbert Arenas.

The Wizards first choice would be to trade him and get some value in return. Arenas plays the same position as Wall, he costs $20M a year for a rebuilding team, and he's too good to fit with our "tank and build through the draft while buying picks" strategy.

If Gil can't be moved for the return the Wizards desire, the Wizards' second choice would be to keep him for a while, "re-embrace" him, and hopefully he blows up and makes himself irreplaceable and/or increases his trade value.

I think Teddy understands this, I think EG understands this, I think Arenas understands this, and I think most of the posters on RealGM understand this.

The only question is what is the return Washington must get for them to go ahead and pull the trigger. Is it an expiring contract? Pure cap space? A pick or prospect? Or is it just about anybody with a pulse that has a shorter, cheaper contract?
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Re: Arenas for Vince? 

Post#315 » by no D in Hibachi » Tue Jul 6, 2010 6:25 pm

nate33 wrote:I don't think there is much inconsistency or mystery on the Wizards' stance with Gilbert Arenas.

The Wizards first choice would be to trade him and get some value in return. Arenas plays the same position as Wall, he costs $20M a year for a rebuilding team, and he's too good to fit with our "tank and build through the draft while buying picks" strategy.

If Gil can't be moved for the return the Wizards desire, the Wizards' second choice would be to keep him for a while, "re-embrace" him, and hopefully he blows up and makes himself irreplaceable and/or increases his trade value.

I think Teddy understands this, I think EG understands this, I think Arenas understands this, and I think most of the posters on RealGM understand this.

The only question is what is the return Washington must get for them to go ahead and pull the trigger. Is it an expiring contract? Pure cap space? A pick or prospect? Or is it just about anybody with a pulse that has a shorter, cheaper contract?

Most posters on the Wiz board understand this. It seems like other posters throughout RealGM still don't as there was a barrage of Arenas for Turk/Calderon, Arenas + Blatch/McGee/Wall for Curry, etc.
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Re: Arenas for Vince? 

Post#316 » by Silvie Lysandra » Wed Jul 7, 2010 12:13 am

nate33 wrote:The only question is what is the return Washington must get for them to go ahead and pull the trigger. Is it an expiring contract? Pure cap space? A pick or prospect? Or is it just about anybody with a pulse that has a shorter, cheaper contract?


For me, the minimum offer would be something along the lines of:

Curry or raw cap space
Gallo
Future 1st

Otherwise it's just not worth trading him right now, especially since we have a halfway decent chance of competing for a playoff spot (which is okay when you have cap space and a young team). Certainly the Arenas for Turk/Calderon crap won't fly.
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Re: Arenas for Vince? 

Post#317 » by Hoopalotta » Wed Jul 7, 2010 12:22 am

no D in Hibachi wrote:
nate33 wrote:I think Teddy understands this, I think EG understands this, I think Arenas understands this, and I think most of the posters on RealGM understand this.

The only question is what is the return Washington must get for them to go ahead and pull the trigger. Is it an expiring contract? Pure cap space? A pick or prospect? Or is it just about anybody with a pulse that has a shorter, cheaper contract?

Most posters on the Wiz board understand this. It seems like other posters throughout RealGM still don't as there was a barrage of Arenas for Turk/Calderon, Arenas + Blatch/McGee/Wall for Curry, etc.


To me, the thing that doesn't fit are the more recent quotes out of Ted. I have not seen any kinds of video or anything, but it seems he has positioned himself to be seen as duplicitous if Gil were dealt this offseason. It seems like he went well beyond the "we expect Gil to e here" from Dan Steinberg et. all.

Before that, I thought I had a fair handle on the overall plan.
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Re: Arenas for Vince? 

Post#318 » by JWizmentality » Wed Jul 7, 2010 12:28 am

Ugh.This again.
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Re: Arenas for Vince? 

Post#319 » by Hoopalotta » Wed Jul 7, 2010 12:41 am

Well, Mike Lee has now confirmed what the Orlando reporters were saying in that the Wizards called the Magic and offered Gil for Vince, so I figured it was well worth trawling back up.
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Re: Arenas for Vince? 

Post#320 » by JWizmentality » Wed Jul 7, 2010 12:49 am

^I know...doesn't mean I'm enthusiastic about seeing it again.

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