Player of the Year Discussion (Not Voting) Thread 2009-10

Moderators: trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal, Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ

Sedale Threatt
RealGM
Posts: 51,076
And1: 45,472
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
Location: Clearing space in the trophy case.

Re: Player of the Year Discussion Thread 2009-10 

Post#81 » by Sedale Threatt » Tue Jul 6, 2010 7:44 pm

Gongxi wrote:And I'm saying that its fallacious.


Ditto for your "macro" approach. Sometimes a single game or two are just that important.

I'm obviously comparing them. Game 4 in the first round was important. But...it's not being mentioned. You don't think it's important to mention it, and instead only mention important bad games? Why?


What would you like to be said? He had a monster triple double to break the No. 8 seed's back in the first round. An outstanding performance.

Now, what about the fact that he bombed in arguably the most important game of the season, in such a way that his character, effort and leadership were called into question almost across the board? Or the fact that he had three others game in the series ranging from average to poor? Painting that as "rough stretches" is like saying the Titanic was an accident.

Why? Because his team lost? So Kobe's poor first round can be glossed over because his team won? What sense does that make, we're comparing the players, not the teams.


I didn't even bring Kobe up, as far as I can recall. Now that I'm being pressed, I certainly won't gloss anything over. That series, as well as his Game 7 against Boston, and his poor play in Jan/Feb are among the main reasons I'm having a tough time putting him at No. 1. Take two of the three away, and he's my slam-dunk choice.

I think he had rough stretches.


That's it? You can pontificate on end about how lacking my standards are, or drop countless references to show what an intellectual you are, but when it comes to the subject at hand -- just how bad/good was LeBron in this particular series, and how does it impact his standing? -- you've got one benign little sentence?
JordansBulls
RealGM
Posts: 60,467
And1: 5,349
Joined: Jul 12, 2006
Location: HCA (Homecourt Advantage)

Re: Player of the Year Discussion (Not Voting) Thread 2009-10 

Post#82 » by JordansBulls » Tue Jul 6, 2010 8:12 pm

How could Gasol not be in the top 5 if he led the team in both PER and Win Shares and led the entire playoffs in Win Shares and Rebounding?
Image
"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
- Michael Jordan
User avatar
An Unbiased Fan
RealGM
Posts: 11,736
And1: 5,708
Joined: Jan 16, 2009
       

Re: Player of the Year Discussion (Not Voting) Thread 2009-10 

Post#83 » by An Unbiased Fan » Tue Jul 6, 2010 8:29 pm

JordansBulls wrote:How could Gasol not be in the top 5 if he led the team in both PER and Win Shares and led the entire playoffs in Win Shares and Rebounding?

Gasol was All-NBA 3rd team, had zero MVP votes, and was a solid #2 option in the PS. That's not a Top 5 player.
7-time RealGM MVPoster 2009-2016
Inducted into RealGM HOF 1st ballot in 2017
JordansBulls
RealGM
Posts: 60,467
And1: 5,349
Joined: Jul 12, 2006
Location: HCA (Homecourt Advantage)

Re: Player of the Year Discussion (Not Voting) Thread 2009-10 

Post#84 » by JordansBulls » Tue Jul 6, 2010 8:39 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:How could Gasol not be in the top 5 if he led the team in both PER and Win Shares and led the entire playoffs in Win Shares and Rebounding?

Gasol was All-NBA 3rd team, had zero MVP votes, and was a solid #2 option in the PS. That's not a Top 5 player.


But leading a championship team in both Win Shares and PER on the season and in the playoffs is, no matter if people were voting for him or not.
Image
"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
- Michael Jordan
User avatar
Optimism Prime
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 3,374
And1: 35
Joined: Jul 07, 2005
 

Re: Player of the Year Discussion (Not Voting) Thread 2009-10 

Post#85 » by Optimism Prime » Tue Jul 6, 2010 8:44 pm

JordansBulls wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:How could Gasol not be in the top 5 if he led the team in both PER and Win Shares and led the entire playoffs in Win Shares and Rebounding?

Gasol was All-NBA 3rd team, had zero MVP votes, and was a solid #2 option in the PS. That's not a Top 5 player.


But leading a championship team in both Win Shares and PER on the season and in the playoffs is, no matter if people were voting for him or not.


Then if that's your criteria, vote for him. Those of us who don't share your criteria won't.

Please stop trying to force your devotion to HCA, WS, PER on the rest of us. It's getting old.
Hello ladies. Look at your posts. Now back to mine. Now back at your posts now back to MINE. Sadly, they aren't mine. But if your posts started using Optimism™, they could sound like mine. This post is now diamonds.

I'm on a horse.
JordansBulls
RealGM
Posts: 60,467
And1: 5,349
Joined: Jul 12, 2006
Location: HCA (Homecourt Advantage)

Re: Player of the Year Discussion (Not Voting) Thread 2009-10 

Post#86 » by JordansBulls » Tue Jul 6, 2010 8:57 pm

Optimism Prime wrote:
Then if that's your criteria, vote for him. Those of us who don't share your criteria won't.

Please stop trying to force your devotion to HCA, WS, PER on the rest of us. It's getting old.


I'm not saying he is supposed to be voted #1 or #2. I am simply saying that that at least deserves a top 5 voting.
The guy was one of the most consistent guys in the league all year long.
Image
"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
- Michael Jordan
User avatar
Optimism Prime
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 3,374
And1: 35
Joined: Jul 07, 2005
 

Re: Player of the Year Discussion (Not Voting) Thread 2009-10 

Post#87 » by Optimism Prime » Tue Jul 6, 2010 9:01 pm

JordansBulls wrote:
Optimism Prime wrote:
Then if that's your criteria, vote for him. Those of us who don't share your criteria won't.

Please stop trying to force your devotion to HCA, WS, PER on the rest of us. It's getting old.


I'm not saying he is supposed to be voted #1 or #2. I am simply saying that that at least deserves a top 5 voting.
The guy was one of the most consistent guys in the league all year long.


And I'm not saying you can't vote for him top 5. I'm saying, please stop expecting us to fall in line with your ranking system. He may have been consistent, yes, but so was Stockton, whom I'm a big fan of--and I never voted for him. Being consistent =/= top five player.
Hello ladies. Look at your posts. Now back to mine. Now back at your posts now back to MINE. Sadly, they aren't mine. But if your posts started using Optimism™, they could sound like mine. This post is now diamonds.

I'm on a horse.
JordansBulls
RealGM
Posts: 60,467
And1: 5,349
Joined: Jul 12, 2006
Location: HCA (Homecourt Advantage)

Re: Player of the Year Discussion (Not Voting) Thread 2009-10 

Post#88 » by JordansBulls » Tue Jul 6, 2010 9:03 pm

Optimism Prime wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
Optimism Prime wrote:
Then if that's your criteria, vote for him. Those of us who don't share your criteria won't.

Please stop trying to force your devotion to HCA, WS, PER on the rest of us. It's getting old.


I'm not saying he is supposed to be voted #1 or #2. I am simply saying that that at least deserves a top 5 voting.
The guy was one of the most consistent guys in the league all year long.


And I'm not saying you can't vote for him top 5. I'm saying, please stop expecting us to fall in line with your ranking system. He may have been consistent, yes, but so was Stockton, whom I'm a big fan of--and I never voted for him. Being consistent =/= top five player.


But Stockton never had the best numbers/production on his team. That is essentially what those aggregate stats tell you.
Image
"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
- Michael Jordan
Sedale Threatt
RealGM
Posts: 51,076
And1: 45,472
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
Location: Clearing space in the trophy case.

Re: Player of the Year Discussion (Not Voting) Thread 2009-10 

Post#89 » by Sedale Threatt » Tue Jul 6, 2010 9:05 pm

I agree with Optimism -- vote for who you want. I voted for James Worthy in the 88 thread. Somebody just voted for Jeff Ruland in one of the 80s threads. Knock yourself out.
User avatar
An Unbiased Fan
RealGM
Posts: 11,736
And1: 5,708
Joined: Jan 16, 2009
       

Re: Player of the Year Discussion (Not Voting) Thread 2009-10 

Post#90 » by An Unbiased Fan » Tue Jul 6, 2010 9:16 pm

JordansBulls wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:How could Gasol not be in the top 5 if he led the team in both PER and Win Shares and led the entire playoffs in Win Shares and Rebounding?

Gasol was All-NBA 3rd team, had zero MVP votes, and was a solid #2 option in the PS. That's not a Top 5 player.


But leading a championship team in both Win Shares and PER on the season and in the playoffs is, no matter if people were voting for him or not.

Because Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Durant, Dwight, etc., all played better than Gasol last year. It's no secret that I think both PER & WS are flawed stats. Paul Milsap had nearly the same PER & WS as Deron in the PS, which should tell you there's something wrong.
7-time RealGM MVPoster 2009-2016
Inducted into RealGM HOF 1st ballot in 2017
User avatar
Optimism Prime
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 3,374
And1: 35
Joined: Jul 07, 2005
 

Re: Player of the Year Discussion (Not Voting) Thread 2009-10 

Post#91 » by Optimism Prime » Tue Jul 6, 2010 9:19 pm

JordansBulls wrote:
Optimism Prime wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
I'm not saying he is supposed to be voted #1 or #2. I am simply saying that that at least deserves a top 5 voting.
The guy was one of the most consistent guys in the league all year long.


And I'm not saying you can't vote for him top 5. I'm saying, please stop expecting us to fall in line with your ranking system. He may have been consistent, yes, but so was Stockton, whom I'm a big fan of--and I never voted for him. Being consistent =/= top five player.


But Stockton never had the best numbers/production on his team. That is essentially what those aggregate stats tell you.


Did you vote for Billups in 04-05? He did lead the playoffs in WS after all.
Hello ladies. Look at your posts. Now back to mine. Now back at your posts now back to MINE. Sadly, they aren't mine. But if your posts started using Optimism™, they could sound like mine. This post is now diamonds.

I'm on a horse.
sp6r=underrated
RealGM
Posts: 20,896
And1: 13,698
Joined: Jan 20, 2007
 

Re: Player of the Year Discussion (Not Voting) Thread 2009-10 

Post#92 » by sp6r=underrated » Tue Jul 6, 2010 11:47 pm

Optimism Prime wrote:
Did you vote for Billups in 04-05? He did lead the playoffs in WS after all.


I've pushed this point for awhile with regards to Billups and WS. JB hammers up and down the importance of WS and yet he never picks Billups in comparisons. He claims Billups was only possibly top 10 in 2006, yet Billups was top 8 in WS from 04 to 08.
lakers16xchamps
Banned User
Posts: 202
And1: 0
Joined: Jul 06, 2010

Re: Player of the Year Discussion (Not Voting) Thread 2009-10 

Post#93 » by lakers16xchamps » Wed Jul 7, 2010 2:02 am

LeBron was the best player during the regular season only because Kobe wasn't healthy imo. Kobe was better in the playoffs especially as he got healthier.
User avatar
Silver Bullet
General Manager
Posts: 8,313
And1: 10
Joined: Dec 24, 2006

Re: Player of the Year Discussion (Not Voting) Thread 2009-10 

Post#94 » by Silver Bullet » Wed Jul 7, 2010 3:28 am

What the hell is going on here ?

You can vote for Lebron.

Or you can vote for Kobe.

How the hell do most people have Wade at 1.

I mean, this is beyond ridiculous -

For starters, Wade's playoff sample size is all of five games. Despite his gaudy stats, he was able to take a grand total of 1 game from the Celtics. And it's not that his team mates are crappy, his team was the 5th seed. In a 4-5 match up, the guy gets nearly swept and somehow becomes the unanimous POY ?

And his stats are nothing to write home about - In Game 2, in a 30 point blow out the guy plays 38 minutes. And then Game 4 he has a monster game, after being down 3-0.

I mean, seriously, if you vote for Wade, you have ZERO credibility. The guy shouldn't even be in the discussion.
FinalsMVP
Sophomore
Posts: 175
And1: 0
Joined: May 19, 2010

Re: Player of the Year Discussion (Not Voting) Thread 2009-10 

Post#95 » by FinalsMVP » Wed Jul 7, 2010 3:30 am

Either you guys are doing this for fun or you have a really inflated sense of ego in believing people care what you think.

for the record.

1. Kobe
2. Lebron

3.everyone else.
bballcool34
General Manager
Posts: 8,484
And1: 667
Joined: Mar 13, 2005
   

Re: Player of the Year Discussion (Not Voting) Thread 2009-10 

Post#96 » by bballcool34 » Wed Jul 7, 2010 3:36 am

FinalsMVP wrote:Either you guys are doing this for fun or you have a really inflated sense of ego in believing people care what you think.

for the record.

1. Kobe
2. Lebron

3.everyone else.


this guy is mad...
Damn
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 53,506
And1: 22,522
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: Player of the Year Discussion (Not Voting) Thread 2009-10 

Post#97 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Jul 7, 2010 3:56 am

FinalsMVP wrote:Either you guys are doing this for fun or you have a really inflated sense of ego in believing people care what you think.


We're doing this for fun, and we're doing this to learn.
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 53,506
And1: 22,522
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: Player of the Year Discussion (Not Voting) Thread 2009-10 

Post#98 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Jul 7, 2010 4:01 am

Some more thoughts:

With the top 3, I've got a bit of a triangle going in my head. LeBron seems clearly above Wade, but Wade's got a great case over Kobe, and Kobe's got a great case over LeBron. I don't think I'm going to end up satisfied however I pick.

Howard seems pretty safe at the 4 spot. He proved once again that he is having big impact, but goes quiet quite a bit more than you'd like. You just can't rely on him more than the top 3.

The spot for me is between Durant and Nash. Durant was better in the regular season, Nash better in the post-season, all due Durant dropping off. To me the question is whether Durant's dropoff was just him being off against a good team, or whether he truly is at this stage "solve-able" in the playoffs.
User avatar
Silver Bullet
General Manager
Posts: 8,313
And1: 10
Joined: Dec 24, 2006

Re: Player of the Year Discussion (Not Voting) Thread 2009-10 

Post#99 » by Silver Bullet » Wed Jul 7, 2010 4:04 am

Nowitzki over Howard - I'd say.
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 53,506
And1: 22,522
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: Player of the Year Discussion (Not Voting) Thread 2009-10 

Post#100 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Jul 7, 2010 4:17 am

Silver Bullet wrote:For starters, Wade's playoff sample size is all of five games. Despite his gaudy stats, he was able to take a grand total of 1 game from the Celtics. And it's not that his team mates are crappy, his team was the 5th seed. In a 4-5 match up, the guy gets nearly swept and somehow becomes the unanimous POY ?


I'll chime in here with how I see Wade's place in the dilemma: A first round exit, no matter how gaudy the performance, is not enough to move a guy above other guys who were superior in the regular season, and strong in the playoffs leading actual contenders.

However, if a player is superior in the regular season, and he performs on a jawdropping level in the playoffs with his team doing about as well as you'd expect, how do you drop him?

So this is the Kobe/Wade debate for me: Was Kobe better in either the regular season or post-season than Wade? In the regular season he was clearly hurt - it's not a debate about true Kobe/Wade there. Kobe had some great performances in the post-season, but is there any way to think he outplayed Wade when when they both played Boston, Wade looked better?

I should be clear, I probably rate Kobe and LeBron both ahead of Wade - but the above issue is why I'm not easily satisfied in doing so.
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!

Return to Player Comparisons