Player of the Year Voting Thread 2009-10 (Voting Complete)

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Re: Player of the Year Voting Thread 2009-10 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#61 » by ElGee » Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:02 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
ElGee wrote:To those who are propping Kobe up (assuming you didn't already have him No. 1 which seems absolutely preplexing given his injuries and struggles) and knocking James down, how much are you valuing the postseason and how is Kobe's postseason better than LeBron's? If your answer is "leadership," that's obviously too ethereal to challenge.

Leading his team trough 4 quality opponents and getting Finals MVP is a major reason. When the OKC series as 2-2, and the THunder had the momentum, Kobe asked to guard Westbrook and changed the complexion of that series. From that point, LA went on to win 8 straight games, and Kobe himself had a 30 point streak. When Phoenix tied their series at 2-2, Kobe again hit shot after shot to lead LA to a win.

Here's Kobe's game logs from the 2010 playoffs. These were against 4 50+-win teams:

OKC:
G1 - 21/2/3
G2 - 39/5/1
G3 - 24/4/8
G4 - 12/3/4
G5 - 13/3/7
G6 - 32/6/7

Utah:
G1 - 31/3/4
G2 - 30/5/8
G3 - 35/4/7
G4 - 32/3/4

PHX:
G1 - 40/5/5
G2 - 21/5/13
G3 - 36/9/11
G4 - 38/7/10
G5 - 30/11/9
G6 - 37/4/6

Boston:
G1 - 30/6/7
G2 - 21/5/6
G3 - 29/5/7
G4 - 33/6/2
G5 - 38/5/4
G6 - 26/11/3
G7 - 23/25/2

The sheer volume of great games Kobe had clearly puts his PS performance at #1.

Kobe had 3 games with a Game score of 30 or better, and 15 with a Game score of 20 or better. That's a great PS run. Wade had only 1 game that was above 30, the rest were 20+. Lebron had 3 30+ Games scores against Chicago, and 2 in the Boston series, but he also had an equal amount of sub 20 games too. So he was very sink or swim during his PS run. Dwight had no games that were above 30, and most were sub 20. Durant had the worst of them all, he managed one game at 21.8, the rest were all below 17.7.

So yes, I would say Kobe showed more consistentcy and dominance during the PS than anyone by good measure.


Yes, if you completely ignore turnovers, shooting percentage, rebounding, defense, context, etc. then you can make that case. Maybe Doctor MJ can confirm: should the POY go to the player whose team goes deeper in the playoffs and/or who scores the most points??

Thanks.
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Re: Player of the Year Voting Thread 2009-10 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#62 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:18 pm

ElGee wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:
ElGee wrote:
You keep pimping this line, but what the heck does it mean? Do his points count less than others? Do his assists count less? He IS that team.

He creates a similar amount of offense for his teammates as Wade and Bryant. I already posted his efficiency in PnR situations. His assists are higher (which means he's passing to players who SCORE -- it still counts as a score) His team's ORtg in the regular season was 116.6 with him on the court. +15. Nash is 118 (+6) in Phoenix. Kobe 112.5 (+(9) with the Lakers.

re: The Cavs team. What does LeBron driving, getting double or triple-teamed, passing to an open player and having him miss have to do with LeBron??? Mo Williams missed open shot after open shot. He air-balled an open elbow jumper in G6. Jamison nearly fumbled the ball away by himself on an open shot in G6, wide open from the wing, and clanged the ball off the side of the backboard. Furthermore, Mo Williams and Jamison couldn't guard a lamp post. I suppose that's all LeBron's fault though??

And finally, you keep harping on this ball domination. How should they run the offense? I'd love to hear your thoughts on how Cleveland can improve on that crappy 116 ORtg (for 2 consecutive years) with 90% of the offense going through James. Should they run the flex? Motion? Post Z more? High PnR with Williams? I suppose Phoenix should stop having Nash "ball-dominate" so much?

Not all points are the same, not all assists are the same. Lebron's points came at the expense of team flow & ball movement most of the time in those playoffs. Going to the top of the key, putting your head down, and either driving or taking a jumper is not very impactful for anyone but James. Others need to touch the ball, and they don't unless James is doubled or caught in traffic. Even when he passes the ball, he's calling for it back shortly after, and his teammates never get any rythem on the floor. That's why Cavs management put catch & shoot players around him. Aguy like Jamison who is a career 20 & 8 player, CAN create his own shot, but did he ever get that opportunity. And when his play regresses, is it that he just forgot how to play, or maybe that the system & main ball-handler have turned him into a spot up roleplayer?

Btw, here's what the Cav supporting cast shot in the playoffs:

Jamison shot 47% FG (above career avg) and added 7.4 rpg. Hell, The whole supporting cast shot 45.7%. So were they that bad, or were they just marginalized.

Basketball is a team game. Any star who plays 1 on 5, can put up amazing numbers, but it's those who can find the right balance, who get others off and not just himself, who sacrifices stats so that others can produce, that end up excelling and leading their team further. Look at how Nash gets assists by finding guys in the right spots & utilizing their strengths, versus Lebron dribblling from the 3pt line, and passing out when doubled. Nash assists are the result of playmaking, lebron's are because the ball's in his hands half the time. very different impact wise, and you can see this in how Nash's cast plays vs Lebron's. Put Jamison on the Suns, and I guarantee you he's not regressing.

When you add in the fact that Lebron finished that Boston series in an ugly fashion, and Cleveland lost with the best record/HCA in the 2nd orund, it's easy to see why his PS performance is looked at poorly. If he were Dirk or DRob, he would be getting destroyed right now.


Umm, c'mon, not in the Celtics series.

Jamison: .422
WIlliams: .409

Rest of team (not LeBron): 142-316 (.449). Down from .480 in the regular season.

I mean, Mike Brown had Shaq guarding Kevin Garnett to start G6. What does that have to do with LeBron James (KG went 3-3 before they switched off).

Furthermore, you're disproving your own point. Jamison didn't regress with LeBron! He's played on 2 good teams (Dallas, Cleveland) and his numbers were better on Cleveland. If you think Jamison's a 20-8 guy on a good team (or a legit No. 2 option) I don't know what to tell you...

And what do you mean all points don't count the same? They do count the same. 2 points are 2 points. Do you have an example of when 2 points aren't 2 points? :roll: Do they count as more when Kobe Bryant scores them? :-?

Btw, Steve Nash calls for the ball back immediately when Phoenix runs high PnR. Magic Johnson called for the ball back immediately during the second half of the 80s in the halfcourt. LeBron's creating, not just open shots, but layups for players like Varajeo and Hickson.

And, per the norm, you ignored all of the points about Cleveland's TEAM ORtg as a result of LeBron's "ball dominant" style. And you didn't suggest what they should do to improve.

The Celtics are a great defensive team, so it's not surprising that the Cav's offense struggled more. My point is specifically about Lebron, and his impact as a team player in that series.

You say Jamison didn't regress, but production wise, he did. I was pointing out that AJ could still be effective, but his opportunities were marginalized. For a team searching for a #2 option, this is perplexing.

AJ with the Cavs put up 15.8 ppg & 7.7 rpg with 13.4 FGA
Early in 10' with Washington he had 20.5 ppg & 8.8 rpg
^
So just this year, a 21/9 guy had his production drop to 16/8. Contrast this with Gasol whose production stayed the same, and efficency sky rocketed. How can AJ be that #2 guy if he's not givien the chance. This effect was magnified in the PS where AJ's FGA dropped to 12.5 even though he shot 47% and was 15/7.

How is AJ going to get into a good groove when he's getting 3rd option touches. What exactly was he to do? Boston had an easy time taking him out of the game because his role was so one-dimensional.


And no, not all point & assists are the same. Nash doesn't ask for the ball right back, and doesn't have the need to be the guy who got the assist. PHX & the Showtime Lakers were great passing teams and had great ball movement. The Cavs stand around and wait for Lebron to do what he wants. In the PS, this is much easier to defend. And that ball-domiant play hurts guys like Jamison and the other roleplayers. LA took PHX to seven games in 06' because they realized that Kobe scoring 50 wasn't getting it done during the RS, and that they needed to get others going...it almost worked.
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Re: Player of the Year Voting Thread 2009-10 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#63 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:30 pm

ElGee wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:
ElGee wrote:To those who are propping Kobe up (assuming you didn't already have him No. 1 which seems absolutely preplexing given his injuries and struggles) and knocking James down, how much are you valuing the postseason and how is Kobe's postseason better than LeBron's? If your answer is "leadership," that's obviously too ethereal to challenge.

Leading his team trough 4 quality opponents and getting Finals MVP is a major reason. When the OKC series as 2-2, and the THunder had the momentum, Kobe asked to guard Westbrook and changed the complexion of that series. From that point, LA went on to win 8 straight games, and Kobe himself had a 30 point streak. When Phoenix tied their series at 2-2, Kobe again hit shot after shot to lead LA to a win.

Here's Kobe's game logs from the 2010 playoffs. These were against 4 50+-win teams:

OKC:
G1 - 21/2/3
G2 - 39/5/1
G3 - 24/4/8
G4 - 12/3/4
G5 - 13/3/7
G6 - 32/6/7

Utah:
G1 - 31/3/4
G2 - 30/5/8
G3 - 35/4/7
G4 - 32/3/4

PHX:
G1 - 40/5/5
G2 - 21/5/13
G3 - 36/9/11
G4 - 38/7/10
G5 - 30/11/9
G6 - 37/4/6

Boston:
G1 - 30/6/7
G2 - 21/5/6
G3 - 29/5/7
G4 - 33/6/2
G5 - 38/5/4
G6 - 26/11/3
G7 - 23/25/2

The sheer volume of great games Kobe had clearly puts his PS performance at #1.

Kobe had 3 games with a Game score of 30 or better, and 15 with a Game score of 20 or better. That's a great PS run. Wade had only 1 game that was above 30, the rest were 20+. Lebron had 3 30+ Games scores against Chicago, and 2 in the Boston series, but he also had an equal amount of sub 20 games too. So he was very sink or swim during his PS run. Dwight had no games that were above 30, and most were sub 20. Durant had the worst of them all, he managed one game at 21.8, the rest were all below 17.7.

So yes, I would say Kobe showed more consistentcy and dominance during the PS than anyone by good measure.


Yes, if you completely ignore turnovers, shooting percentage, rebounding, defense, context, etc. then you can make that case. Maybe Doctor MJ can confirm: should the POY go to the player whose team goes deeper in the playoffs and/or who scores the most points??

Thanks.

Did you read what I wrote???

I just pointed out that Kobe had 3 games with a game score of 30+, and 15(yes 15) games that were over 20. No one in the PS had anywhere close to that number of good performances. The sheer volume of quality games puts Kobe ahead in the PS by a good margin.

His PS stats were 29.2/6.0/5.5 on 46% FG and 57% TS.

His defense was stellar throughout. Including his D on Westbrook & ROndo.

Oh, and he got his 2nd FInals MVP in a row. What exactly are you looking for? How did Kobe not have the best PS run?
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Re: Player of the Year Voting Thread 2009-10 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#64 » by ElGee » Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:44 pm

JordansBulls wrote:http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2010_leaders.html

The Contenders

Dwyane Wade (4th in MVP voting)
Lebron James (1st in MVP Voting)
Kobe Bryant (3rd in MVP Voting)
Dwight Howard (4th in MVP Voting)
Pau Gasol (Finished 7th in Win Shares on the season, 5th in WS PER 48 Minutes, 8th in PER and 1st in Win Shares in the playoffs)
Kevin Durant (2nd in MVP Voting)



1. Dwyane Wade - Finished 4th in MVP Voting, Finished 4th in Win Shares on the Season, and 3rd in Win Shares Per 48 minutes on the season, 2nd in PER in the season and 1st in PER in the playoffs, 1st Team All NBA, 2nd Team All Defense

Wade averaged 33.2 ppg / 5.6 rpg / 6.8 apg on 56% FG against the Celtics defense in the playoffs. Just didn't have the help.
http://www.nba.com/heat/stats/2009/conf ... stats.html


2. Kobe Bryant - Finished 3rd in MVP Voting, Finished 2nd in playoff Win Shares, but outside of the top 20 in Win Shares in the regular season, Also finished 13th in PER in the Regular season. 1st Team All NBA, 1st Team All Defense .
Much better in the playoffs finishing 2nd in Win Shares and 4th in PER, but his numbers overall in the season really hurt him here.



3. Lebron James - Won League MVP, 1st in WS Per 48 minutes in the season 1st in Win Shares in the season 1st in PER in the season. 1st Team All NBA, 1st Team All Defense, Finished 2nd in PER in the playoffs. However in the critical Game 5 he laid an egg in this one. So he drops down a spot.


4. Kevin Durant - Finished 2nd in MVP Voting, Finished 2nd in Season WS and 2nd in WS Shares PER 48 minutes and 3rd in Season PER, 1st Team All NBA

5a. Dwight Howard - Finished 4th in MVP voting, 3rd in Win Shares on the Season, 4th in Win Shares PER 48 Min, and 6th in PER. 1st Team All NBA, 1st Team All Defense

5b. Pau Gasol - (Couldn't lead him off the top 5 list considering he led his Led the Lakers in both Win Shares and PER in the Season and Led the entire NBA in Win Shares in the Playoffs)


HM: Dirk Nowitzki


I'd like to specifically address the "LeBron laid an egg, 1 game matters that much" crowd. What about Kobe Bryant's game 7 of the NBA Finals? How could there be a bigger game than that??

He was 1-7 in the first quarter. He took a double-teamed fadeaway (!) which he clanked off the side of the backboard. He was 3-14 at halftime, launching a number of ill-advised shots. I mean, some of these shot attempts even had the Staples crowd gasping. He didn't have a good defensive game either, being scored on the majority of the time his man shot and making two defensive errors (resulting in 2 Boston scores).

Code: Select all

            FG    FT    TO   OReb  Ast  (Pts TS%    ORtg)
Kobe's G7: 6-24  11-15  4    4     2    (23  37.6   88)
Jame's G5: 3-14  9-12   3    1     7    (15  38.9   86)


Comparable offensive stinkers.

LBJ drew 8 fouls. Had an average defensive game.
Kobe drew 6 fouls. Below average defensive game. Bryant did create slightly more for teammates than James.

If LeBron's mental status helped produce the negative results in G5 (for whatever reason, eg disinterest?), Bryant's mental status also helped produce the negative results in G7 (for whatever reason, eg ego?). And since the results are so similar, why are people trying to differentiate the why instead of the what, and trying to judge one reason more harshly than the other when the results are the same?

Manny Ramirez might be thinking about fruit loops when he hits but it doesn't change his +OPS.
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Re: Player of the Year Voting Thread 2009-10 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#65 » by Gongxi » Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:50 pm

The Lakers won, ElGee. That's all that matters when comparing individual players. Bad Game 7? No one cares, the Lakers won. Bad Game 5? Knock LeBron down a couple spots, the Cavs lost. Bad OKC series? No one cares, the Lakers won. Bad Celtics series? Knock LeBron down a couple spots, the Cavs lost. That's how we do individual players here.

Unrelatedly, my top PGs when healthy are a tie between Paul and Rondo. Paul knows how to stat-pad, sure, but Rondo knows how to win.
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Re: Player of the Year Voting Thread 2009-10 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#66 » by Optimism Prime » Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:56 pm

Gongxi wrote:The Lakers won, ElGee. That's all that matters when comparing individual players. Bad Game 7? No one cares, the Lakers won. Bad Game 5? Knock LeBron down a couple spots, the Cavs lost. Bad OKC series? No one cares, the Lakers won. Bad Celtics series? Knock LeBron down a couple spots, the Cavs lost. That's how we do individual players here.

Unrelatedly, my top PGs when healthy are a tie between Paul and Rondo. Paul knows how to stat-pad, sure, but Rondo knows how to win.


I don't get it.

Neither one is on the Lakers. :-?
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Re: Player of the Year Voting Thread 2009-10 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#67 » by ElGee » Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:14 pm

UBF wrote:You say Jamison didn't regress, but production wise, he did. I was pointing out that AJ could still be effective, but his opportunities were marginalized. For a team searching for a #2 option, this is perplexing.

AJ with the Cavs put up 15.8 ppg & 7.7 rpg with 13.4 FGA
Early in 10' with Washington he had 20.5 ppg & 8.8 rpg
^
So just this year, a 21/9 guy had his production drop to 16/8. Contrast this with Gasol whose production stayed the same, and efficency sky rocketed. How can AJ be that #2 guy if he's not givien the chance. This effect was magnified in the PS where AJ's FGA dropped to 12.5 even though he shot 47% and was 15/7.

How is AJ going to get into a good groove when he's getting 3rd option touches. What exactly was he to do? Boston had an easy time taking him out of the game because his role was so one-dimensional.

And no, not all point & assists are the same. Nash doesn't ask for the ball right back, and doesn't have the need to be the guy who got the assist. PHX & the Showtime Lakers were great passing teams and had great ball movement. The Cavs stand around and wait for Lebron to do what he wants. In the PS, this is much easier to defend. And that ball-domiant play hurts guys like Jamison and the other roleplayers. LA took PHX to seven games in 06' because they realized that Kobe scoring 50 wasn't getting it done during the RS, and that they needed to get others going...it almost worked.


You really need to rethink why these statistics are changing and understand team dynamics more. Antawn Jamison isn't close to a No. 2 option on a championship team. Not close. He's a tweener and a defensive liability who isn't even a true post option.

When you shoot less and with easier shots (because defenses are collapsing on James) your shooting percentage goes up. That's why Pierce and Allen had their TS% go up in 08. Garnett didn't secretly prevent them from getting more touches while they were suddenly scoring more efficiently independent of team dynamic. I mean, do you think Paul Pierce just stifled Nate Robinson and was responsible for his "regression?"

You keep saying the Cavs stand around -- do you not understand most of the offense is run through James because he is by far their best offensive player?? Do you see how successful it has been?

I think when you can't even say, "yes, clearly all points count the same," you've revealed your intentions pretty clearly.

And the guy your elevating over James stood around and played (inefficient) isolation basketball more than James did and for much of the series vs. Boston.

Oh, and Nash does this (at 4:25 of video) constantly btw:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPSpvdpnxUw&feature=player_embedded#at=292[/youtube]
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Re: Player of the Year Voting Thread 2009-10 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#68 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:24 pm

ElGee wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2010_leaders.html

The Contenders

Dwyane Wade (4th in MVP voting)
Lebron James (1st in MVP Voting)
Kobe Bryant (3rd in MVP Voting)
Dwight Howard (4th in MVP Voting)
Pau Gasol (Finished 7th in Win Shares on the season, 5th in WS PER 48 Minutes, 8th in PER and 1st in Win Shares in the playoffs)
Kevin Durant (2nd in MVP Voting)



1. Dwyane Wade - Finished 4th in MVP Voting, Finished 4th in Win Shares on the Season, and 3rd in Win Shares Per 48 minutes on the season, 2nd in PER in the season and 1st in PER in the playoffs, 1st Team All NBA, 2nd Team All Defense

Wade averaged 33.2 ppg / 5.6 rpg / 6.8 apg on 56% FG against the Celtics defense in the playoffs. Just didn't have the help.
http://www.nba.com/heat/stats/2009/conf ... stats.html


2. Kobe Bryant - Finished 3rd in MVP Voting, Finished 2nd in playoff Win Shares, but outside of the top 20 in Win Shares in the regular season, Also finished 13th in PER in the Regular season. 1st Team All NBA, 1st Team All Defense .
Much better in the playoffs finishing 2nd in Win Shares and 4th in PER, but his numbers overall in the season really hurt him here.



3. Lebron James - Won League MVP, 1st in WS Per 48 minutes in the season 1st in Win Shares in the season 1st in PER in the season. 1st Team All NBA, 1st Team All Defense, Finished 2nd in PER in the playoffs. However in the critical Game 5 he laid an egg in this one. So he drops down a spot.


4. Kevin Durant - Finished 2nd in MVP Voting, Finished 2nd in Season WS and 2nd in WS Shares PER 48 minutes and 3rd in Season PER, 1st Team All NBA

5a. Dwight Howard - Finished 4th in MVP voting, 3rd in Win Shares on the Season, 4th in Win Shares PER 48 Min, and 6th in PER. 1st Team All NBA, 1st Team All Defense

5b. Pau Gasol - (Couldn't lead him off the top 5 list considering he led his Led the Lakers in both Win Shares and PER in the Season and Led the entire NBA in Win Shares in the Playoffs)


HM: Dirk Nowitzki


I'd like to specifically address the "LeBron laid an egg, 1 game matters that much" crowd. What about Kobe Bryant's game 7 of the NBA Finals? How could there be a bigger game than that??

He was 1-7 in the first quarter. He took a double-teamed fadeaway (!) which he clanked off the side of the backboard. He was 3-14 at halftime, launching a number of ill-advised shots. I mean, some of these shot attempts even had the Staples crowd gasping. He didn't have a good defensive game either, being scored on the majority of the time his man shot and making two defensive errors (resulting in 2 Boston scores).

Code: Select all

            FG    FT    TO   OReb  Ast  (Pts TS%    ORtg)
Kobe's G7: 6-24  11-15  4    4     2    (23  37.6   88)
Jame's G5: 3-14  9-12   3    1     7    (15  38.9   86)


Comparable offensive stinkers.

LBJ drew 8 fouls. Had an average defensive game.
Kobe drew 6 fouls. Below average defensive game. Bryant did create slightly more for teammates than James.

If LeBron's mental status helped produce the negative results in G5 (for whatever reason, eg disinterest?), Bryant's mental status also helped produce the negative results in G7 (for whatever reason, eg ego?). And since the results are so similar, why are people trying to differentiate the why instead of the what, and trying to judge one reason more harshly than the other when the results are the same?

Manny Ramirez might be thinking about fruit loops when he hits but it doesn't change his +OPS.

I find it strange that you list Off Rebs over Tot rebs, especially when rebounding totals were so determinent in which team won throughout the series.

I would also point out again, that Lebron didn't score a FG until the middle of the 3rd quater, and that was off a gimme layup from a long fast break outlet. Kobe was definitely forcing things in that 1st half, but he did adjust his game in the 2nd half to less shots, and crashed the boards throughout the game.

One guy was trying way too much, and the other guy was trying way too little. Impactwise, these 2 games aren't comparable.
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Re: Player of the Year Voting Thread 2009-10 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#69 » by ElGee » Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:32 pm

^^^ You should contact the league and inform them that they've been keeping score incorrectly. They count the points in the first half the same as in the second half. :crazy:

*Def rebounds aren't part of offense.
*You still have yet to answer my question about Cleveland's offense.
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Re: Player of the Year Voting Thread 2009-10 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#70 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:07 pm

ElGee wrote:
UBF wrote:You say Jamison didn't regress, but production wise, he did. I was pointing out that AJ could still be effective, but his opportunities were marginalized. For a team searching for a #2 option, this is perplexing.

AJ with the Cavs put up 15.8 ppg & 7.7 rpg with 13.4 FGA
Early in 10' with Washington he had 20.5 ppg & 8.8 rpg
^
So just this year, a 21/9 guy had his production drop to 16/8. Contrast this with Gasol whose production stayed the same, and efficency sky rocketed. How can AJ be that #2 guy if he's not givien the chance. This effect was magnified in the PS where AJ's FGA dropped to 12.5 even though he shot 47% and was 15/7.

How is AJ going to get into a good groove when he's getting 3rd option touches. What exactly was he to do? Boston had an easy time taking him out of the game because his role was so one-dimensional.

And no, not all point & assists are the same. Nash doesn't ask for the ball right back, and doesn't have the need to be the guy who got the assist. PHX & the Showtime Lakers were great passing teams and had great ball movement. The Cavs stand around and wait for Lebron to do what he wants. In the PS, this is much easier to defend. And that ball-domiant play hurts guys like Jamison and the other roleplayers. LA took PHX to seven games in 06' because they realized that Kobe scoring 50 wasn't getting it done during the RS, and that they needed to get others going...it almost worked.


You really need to rethink why these statistics are changing and understand team dynamics more. Antawn Jamison isn't close to a No. 2 option on a championship team. Not close. He's a tweener and a defensive liability who isn't even a true post option.

When you shoot less and with easier shots (because defenses are collapsing on James) your shooting percentage goes up. That's why Pierce and Allen had their TS% go up in 08. Garnett didn't secretly prevent them from getting more touches while they were suddenly scoring more efficiently independent of team dynamic. I mean, do you think Paul Pierce just stifled Nate Robinson and was responsible for his "regression?"

How is Jamison not a legit #2 option? When Cleveland got him, the perception was surely different.

Jamison was a 21/9 player THIS year before he went to the Cavs. My point with regressing is in regards to production. If Lebron really wants a #2, he has to share the ball. Jamison's FGA dropped by 4 shots, when they should have stayed in the 17 per game range.

AJ 10' with Wash - 20.5/8.8
AJ 09' - 22.2/8.9
AJ 08' - 21.4/10.2
AJ 07' - 19.8/8
etc....

In fact, only AJ's rookie year was worst production-wise than the time he spent with the Cavs at 15.8/7.7

Compare this with Pau whose FGA dropped by only 1. You can't have #2 option type production if they aren't getting the touches. It's a consistent pattern. Even a Shaq who was 18/8 last year wasn't utilized like he should have been.

Playing 1 on 5, is great for Lebron's individual numbers, but again, the impact on his teammates has been on display the last 2 years. How many 60+ win team with HCA throughout and a 2 time MVP have failed to even reach the Finals? Why is it so easy for playoff teams to disrupt the Cavs in the PS? I think it's obvious why.

ElGee wrote:You keep saying the Cavs stand around -- do you not understand most of the offense is run through James because he is by far their best offensive player?? Do you see how successful it has been?

I think when you can't even say, "yes, clearly all points count the same," you've revealed your intentions pretty clearly.

And the guy your elevating over James stood around and played (inefficient) isolation basketball more than James did and for much of the series vs. Boston.

Oh, and Nash does this (at 4:25 of video) constantly btw:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPSpvdpnxUw&feature=player_embedded#at=292[/youtube]

I said not all points & assists are the same, not that they don't count the same. A Steve Nash assist to Hill right into his favorite spot when he's wide open, is not the same as Lebron dribbling for 15 seconds, driving to the hoop, and then throwing it to Jamison out of traffic. One guy is setting guys up, the other is passing out of necessity. One guy is playing to his teammate's strength, the other is making his teammate a catch & shoot player.
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Re: Player of the Year Voting Thread 2009-10 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#71 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:11 pm

ElGee wrote:^^^ You should contact the league and inform them that they've been keeping score incorrectly. They count the points in the first half the same as in the second half. :crazy:

*Def rebounds aren't part of offense.
*You still have yet to answer my question about Cleveland's offense.

1) Not scoring a FG until the middle of the 3rd quarter is usually a bad thing. For the game, LBJ shot 3-14. No matter how you slice it, it's was a horrible shooting night.

2) Def. rebounds create more possessions for the offense, and more fast-break opportunities.

3) Which question? I think I have discussed them very thoroughly.
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Re: Player of the Year Voting Thread 2009-10 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#72 » by D Nice » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:38 pm

Tim_Hardawayy wrote:Why are people jumping in to vote on this year who haven't contributed to this project in any other year? I chose not to participate a while back because I knew I wouldn't be much good at years prior to around 95, but I've still followed it closely and I'm seeing a lot of posters in this thread who haven't participated at all who are suddenly interested to throw their vote out there.
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Re: Player of the Year Voting Thread 2009-10 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#73 » by ElGee » Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:17 am

Which question? Reread the thread. I've asked it repeatedly and even bolded it...Someone else can take over if they want -- it's like talking to the flipped side of a slippery ping-pong table.

LeBron James points don't count the same as Kobe Bryant's!

LeBron James passes to open shooters aren't the same as Steve Nash's passes to open shooters!

LeBron James "ball-dominant" style hurts his teammates!


And he has a quote from 2006 mocking LeBron James...how Unbiased! :D

--

Moving on, I'm fairly impressed by Dwyane Wade: http://www.82games.com/0910/0910MIA.HTM

Miami's ORtg with him on the court is 113 (+17)!! That's better than the Lakers offense with Kobe Bryant on the court. Given that so much runs through Wade and that he's playing with Beasley, Haslem, Richardson, J. O'Neal, Arroyo and Chalmers, that speaks extremely well for Wade.

I've cited this data, but worth reposting here since I have it formatted with all 3. Here's how Wade, James and Bryant stacked up in PnR, isolation, transition and posting up in the regular season and vs Boston in the playoffs (The Wade playoff data might be missing 2 games). *Points are individual's points, not team points per play:

Code: Select all

            Reg Season     --      v Boston       
        % plays  Pts/play --  % plays  Pts/play
Pick n Roll
Wade    29%       0.92        34%      1.00
James   18%       0.98        29%      1.10
Bryant  11%       0.74        18%      1.05

Isolation
Wade    18%       0.96        25%      0.62
James   31%       0.97        25%      0.64
Bryant  29%       0.95        32%      0.77

Transition
Wade    14%       1.21        10%      1.70
James   17%       1.26        16%      1.30
Bryant  10%       1.19        5%       1.10

Post-up
Wade    6%        1.00        4%       1.00
James   6%        1.15        7%       0.64
Bryant  22%       0.98        9%       0.60


Against Boston, Wade ran a lot of PnR, and quite successfully, both in terms of creating shots for others but scoring at a quality clip. Bryant increased his isolation (and left the post). James did the best job of still scoring some points in transition.
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Re: Player of the Year Voting Thread 2009-10 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#74 » by Optimism Prime » Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:28 am

1. Lebron James
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Dwight Howard
5. Steve Nash

HM: Durant, Deron

A few thoughts:
-I really did debate leaving Lebron off given the events of the past week. I could justify it to myself by saying that I've held off-court issues against players in the past, and that signing with the Heat impacted his legacy as much as anything he did on the basketball court. However--he had a phenomenal year. Everything I could hold against him, he overcame with his on-court performance for 99.8% of the year. Hell, even if we blow the playoffs way out of proportion, and the last two games even more out of proportion, it's still... what, 90%? 80 at worst? Yeah. He had a great year, and attempting to be as impartial as possible leads me to give it to him.
-I really, really, REALLY wanted to put Durant here. Couldn't justify him over Nash or Howard. Nash was a killer in the playoffs; Howard was his normal self. I have no doubt that Durant will make my list next year, but as impressive as he was, he just didn't quite make the cut. It's close though.
-Also, a month ago, I thought that Rondo might have had a chance to make my list. If he'd gotten Finals MVP (the only thing in the Finals I was actually pulling for), I might have been able to justify it.
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Re: Player of the Year Voting Thread 2009-10 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#75 » by Silver Bullet » Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:54 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
Tim_Hardawayy wrote:Why are people jumping in to vote on this year who haven't contributed to this project in any other year? I chose not to participate a while back because I knew I wouldn't be much good at years prior to around 95, but I've still followed it closely and I'm seeing a lot of posters in this thread who haven't participated at all who are suddenly interested to throw their vote out there.


Yeah, what can you do?

Know that their votes won't be counted - and I appreciate you making this easier for me.


For disclosure's sake: I might not be able to contribute in any threads other than this one. I switched jobs and don't have the sort of time, I used to - so I can't really go back and watch any film... I remember almost everything about this season, which is why I can vote this year and not others.

In case, anybody was wondering ...
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Re: Player of the Year Voting Thread 2009-10 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#76 » by An Unbiased Fan » Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:55 am

ElGee wrote:Which question? Reread the thread. I've asked it repeatedly and even bolded it...Someone else can take over if they want -- it's like talking to the flipped side of a slippery ping-pong table.

LeBron James points don't count the same as Kobe Bryant's!

LeBron James passes to open shooters aren't the same as Steve Nash's passes to open shooters!

LeBron James "ball-dominant" style hurts his teammates!


And he has a quote from 2006 mocking LeBron James...how Unbiased! :D

--

This is hilarious. :lol:

I answered your points, and the best retort you can muster is to frame my posts as one-liners. If you're referring to your line about Cleveland's OTRG, my replies referenced reasons for that too. I already explained how running everything through James makes their offense predictable and the teammates one-dimensional.

Btw, in the playoffs, against good teams, that ORTG plummets like a rock.

You asked....
And finally, you keep harping on this ball domination. How should they run the offense? I'd love to hear your thoughts on how Cleveland can improve on that crappy 116 ORtg (for 2 consecutive years) with 90% of the offense going through James. Should they run the flex? Motion? Post Z more? High PnR with Williams? I suppose Phoenix should stop having Nash "ball-dominate" so much?


Outside of game 3, the Cavs were below their season ORTG. In fact, in 4 of the games they were significantly lower. So you tell me.....why did this happen??

G1 - 112.1 ORTG
G2 - 91.3 ORTG
G3 - 143.8 ORTG
G4 - 91.5 ORTG
G5 - 95.6 ORTG
G6 - 88.1 ORTG

For comparisons sake, a team like LA which has good ball movement, never had a ORTG less than 100 against Boston in their series. When a team is ball-dominant, it's easier to defend and only one guy is usually producing. In the RS this can work because there is a wide variety of opponents, but in the PS, teams get tougher.


Look, it you want an honest debate, we can have it. But if you want to cherry pick sentences, and dismiss any counter arguments, then that perhaps speaks for your intentions in this discussion. I answered you first post in good faith,.
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Re: Player of the Year Voting Thread 2009-10 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#77 » by Silver Bullet » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:02 am

ElGee wrote:To those who are propping Kobe up (assuming you didn't already have him No. 1 which seems absolutely preplexing given his injuries and struggles) and knocking James down, how much are you valuing the postseason and how is Kobe's postseason better than LeBron's? If your answer is "leadership," that's obviously too ethereal to challenge.

Defensive Playoff Stats among contenders (courtesy my firm which prefers to remain anonymous)

Code: Select all

        Opp FG%  Shots against/100
James    .276   7.2
Wade     .279   5.5
Howard   .276   13.7
Durant   .302   10.2
Bryant   .376   5.9
Gasol    .406   14.0
Nash     .433   6.9
Williams .439   6.9
Ginobili .439   5.0
Nowitzki .451   8.3


Losing contact with defensive responsibility:

Code: Select all

       Defensive Errors/100
Nash     0.64
Durant   0.81
Howard   0.85
Ginobili 1.08
James    1.13
Nowitzki 1.18
Wade     1.28
Gasol    1.34
Williams 1.42
Bryant   2.30


Shooting foul rates:

Code: Select all

        FT's against/100
Nash     1.67
Durant   1.85
James    2.03
Wade     2.31
Nowitzki 2.36
Ginobili 2.71
Bryant   2.77
Williams 3.11
Gasol    3.27
Howard   4.51


FInally, an offensive stat I like, fouls drawn:

Code: Select all

          Fouls drawn/100
Howard    13.09
Durant    8.54
James     8.46
Williams  8.29
Nowitzki  7.07
Bryant    6.89
Gasol     6.72
Wade      6.67
Ginobili  6.03
Nash      3.15


Elgee, would you mind explaining some of these stats ?

For example, losing contact with defensive responsibility ? How do you measure that ? There are numerous times in a game where losing contact is the right defensive play. For example, Kobe against the Celtics, his job is to be a roamer, to disrupt passing lanes and play free lance defense. In other words, it's part of his job description to lose contact with Rondo.

Regardless, it says Defensive Errors/100 posessions -- Nash and Durrant were the best in the league ? Am I reading this right ?

And how do you measure fouls drawn ?

And how are you measuring opp fg% against ?
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Re: Player of the Year Voting Thread 2009-10 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#78 » by Silver Bullet » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:20 am

My biggest regret with this project is that it became a stat fest -

Anyway, on to my vote:

1. Kobe
2. Lebron
3. Durrant
4. Nowitzki
5. Nash

HM: Deron Williams, Dwight Howard, Dwyane Wade -

I don't feel like an explanation is owed - Frankly, I'm flabbergasted at the Wade love, the guy was 4th in MVP voting and I thought that was fairly generous, and then his team got obliterated in the first round.
47 wins in the West means, he wouldn't qualify for the playoffs.

I don't see how all of you are putting him over Nowitzki, who had another stellar season and probably had an even better first round series.

And Nash is pretty self explanatory, still the best PG in the game. Led Channing Frye, Jared Dudley, a 40 year old Grant Hill and Jason Richardson to 55 wins.

Btw, this is the difference between Nash and guys like Wade and Paul - If Jason Richardson was on the Heat, people would be saying Wade has Jason freakin Richardson, he has no help, J-Rich sucks. On the Suns, J-Rich (like a lot of previous and current Nash-era Suns) looks like a legit winner. Give Nash, Michael Beasley, and he could turn him into an all-star too.
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Re: Player of the Year Voting Thread 2009-10 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#79 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:34 am

My vote:

1. LeBron
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. Dwight
5. Nash

Tough choices.

The #1 spot really came down to LeBron & Kobe because, as I've mentioned before - I can't lift Wade over LeBron of a first round exit. For Kobe, the door was open after LeBron's ignominious exit - but because LeBron was clearly the superior through the regular season & first round, Kobe had to do more than just win. Kobe's Phoenix series had me all set to give him the nod. Not only was he stellar - but he was basically doing what I always want him not to do because I think he won't succeed, and then succeeding. Meaning - the contested jumper (though to be fair his overall team play was stellar too.

There's no doubt in my mind, that a guy who can reliably make those jumpers is the most dangerous possible player, because it's impossible to stop a guy from shooting those without leaving the rest of the court wide open. Kobe gets in a zone sometimes, and when he does, he becomes the best player ever to lace'em up imho, and in Phoenix he was playing close to that level for about the whole series.

Then Boston came, and we saw what we're more used to seeing with Kobe - some good times and some bad. I don't want to make it sound worse than it is. He was still the best player on the court - but - in the end it's still not really clear he did better than LeBron against the Celtics. Similar box score stats, a 4-3 win a poor game 7 and a teammate in Gasol who was the 2nd best player on the court, vs a 2-4 loss with no reliable teammate to speak of - this is not what I was hoping for. In the end, while I'd probably give Kobe the nod for the superior playoffs, it would be more by a more-team-success tiebreaker than anything else. And as I said - I consider LeBron's regular season to be vastly superior. Too much to overcome with so little.

Last, re: leadership. Not really buying the narrative that Kobe rallied his teammates to a superdramatic turnaround. Supporting casts that do better at home than on the round are simply a fact. LeBron's negative influence? To whatever extent it happened, it happened as a result Boston kicking their but, not the other way around.

Kobe vs Wade for the #2 spot. Another choice that drove me nuts, since it's arguable that Wade looked better in both the regular and post seasons. I just don't feel confident in claiming Wade had the better post-season. This is not to say I'm convinced in the other direction though.

Wade put up huge numbers in a big loss. Beyond that, the team didn't just lose, their offense got shut down (horrendous ORtg). Now, this doesn't necessarily say anything bad about Wade, and could conceivably mean something good ("Teammates so absolutely horrendous and they still can't stop him!". What's a certainty though, is that a defense that's that successful hasn't been pushed to its limit - whereas I'm certain that their later series did just that. In the end, I just like Kobe proved more than Wade.

And I'm using the word "proved" quite deliberately. I think this analysis shows just how important it is to wait a few seasons before doing the final analysis on any given season. If Wade proves more impressive than LeBron when they play together, I won't be totally shocked, but to this point can't boost him higher right now.

Now one last point, because it's something my inner devil's advocate keeps nagging me about: Wade's not exactly unproven. He led a team to a ring with a performance that was arguably better than any Kobe's done. That's true, and while you can't justifiably argue that Wade's gotten even better since then based on his '08-09 season, this is '09-10, where his stats dropped not only down from '08-09, but '05-06. Basically, I'm not yet prepared to give the general nod over Kobe. Sometimes he's played better, but sometimes no. For this season, for this moment of reflection, Kobe gets the nod.

Howard gets the 4 spot with relatively little internal debate. In this season, once again, there are times when you watch him and you don't see how another player could be better, and you don't see how his team can possibly lose. And then there are other moments where you marvel at how raw he still is. (Or maybe "raw" isn't even the term to use any more) This lack of reliability is what sets him below the Big 3, but the fact that he's still once again not far away a ring in a dominant fashion makes it out of the question to drop him too far.

Final spot, Nash vs Durant. Another tough one. One where I may change my mind later. This is obviously strongly influenced by Durant's poor post-season, and it's reasonable to ask if I'm overreacting. After all, an 8 seed losing to a 1 seed is hardly worthy of damnation, and small sample size etc. But Durant's game plan really seemed to go to hell, against a team that really wasn't playing that well (and the fact that he's a young player, and young player's do show a trend of playoff disappointment doesn't help).

Meanwhile you've got Nash. Obviously, Nash played against the Lakers too, after the Lakers had started playing really well (starting with the Jazz), and Nash was clearly more impressive against the common opponent. More generally, the Phoenix success this year was really something. The let go of Shaq, and go from missing the playoffs to the WCF - stunning. One might point to the fact that the Sun bench was stronger this year than previously as a mark against Nash, but a lot of that goes toward chemistry, and Nash's impact on team chemistry is rivaled only by Garnett. I'll also point out that for all the talk of Phoenix' offense being a regular season wonder, the Sun's playoff ORtg improved to 117.8, while facing 3 above average offenses. This is the 3rd best all time by a team that got as far as the WCF, behind the '87 Lakers and the '85 Suns. This is fantastic work, and all things considered, Nash impressed me more.

Honorable Mention:

Durant

Deron & Dirk - My 7 & 8 respectively in the regular season, and both played great in the playoffs. I thought Deron might push his way even higher by the time the playoffs ended, but the competition was just too fierce.

Gasol - Decisively pushed his way on to the HM list. Before the Phoenix series, I was seriously thinking he'd crack my top 5 as the best player on the league champs. He then had some times when he disappeared or was neutralized, and Kobe's star shone brighter. Beyond that, I just came away from the Phoenix series feeling that Nash was the 2nd best guy on the court, not Gasol.

Rondo - This last spot fills me with conflicted emotions. There's probably no one who I enjoyed watching more in these playoffs than Rondo...when he was playing well. I had him as a lock for my HM before the finals, but then watching him brick out of the finals made me seriously considering putting Melo, or Bosh, or another Celtic here. Still, he was the MVP of the Celtics during that great run through the ECF, and that's no small feat.
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Re: Player of the Year Voting Thread 2009-10 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#80 » by Silver Bullet » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:44 am

Artest does that to people

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