The Sixerfan1976 Off-Season Thread (Update: Page 61)

[ChuckS]

While i agree that this current under 24 young core lacks future HOF talent... I don't see how adding older non-superstars puts the team in any better circumstance. And aspiring to be a 45 win team without superstars pretty much ensures that you will never contend. So they need to get superstars either through trades or the draft. But getting more vets just to be more competitive gets you nowhere.

Your argument would be persuasive to me if I didn't care about winning or good basketball. With no veterans capable of playing now, we can add a nice young player every year and wait the five year gestation period before most non-superstars are adequate, resulting in a year to year perpetuity of mediocrity and losing. It has been like that so far under Stefanski.

Sure we have a better chance of getting a superstar in the draft if we suck long enough, but how long, and how many are there that have made their teams anything but somewhat more competitive? And do you really believe some fans will not want us to suffer longer because they will insist we need two or three like Miami and Boston?

I think it is masochistic to insist on suffering endlessly unless you can win a championship. We have won only two since the franchise moved here about fifty years ago, and most franchises have won none. It would seem to mandate that many will live their whole lives in "quiet desperation" if that is their only goal.

Also keep in mind that Wilt was a, no longer available, "territorial" pick, and we did not draft Moses. We were mediocre to poor with Barkley and Ivy, except for one year. Also wonder how many superstars of today yearn to play in Philadelphia. It is also apparent that they almost always choose not to go to a loser in free agency.

I fault no one for disagreeing. We should do whatever legally makes us happy. I choose to hope for a team that plays good basketball every year (a la Utah). In my experience that requires a mix of good veterans who can compete right now and youth, for now and the future, who will perpetuate the winning. I think it is just a more possible fringe benefit that a superstar might want to come here if we were good, and he felt he could help us get over the top.

[tk76]

While i agree that this current under 24 young core lacks future HOF talent... I don't see how adding older non-superstars puts the team in any better circumstance. And aspiring to be a 45 win team without superstars pretty much ensures that you will never contend. So they need to get superstars either through trades or the draft. But getting more vets just to be more competitive gets you nowhere.

Your argument would be persuasive to me if I didn't care about winning or good basketball. With no veterans capable of playing now, we can add a nice young player every year and wait the five year gestation period before most non-superstars are adequate, resulting in a year to year perpetuity of mediocrity and losing. It has been like that so far under Stefanski.

Stefanski has held onto younger players... but if anything he tried more of a win now approach with Brand/Iguodala/Miller/Sam. It failed, so it moved them back to the rebuilding phase.

So I think Stefanski tried to do exactly what you are suggest by putting together a more veteran squad who should have been good but not great.

[tk76]

ChuckS, I've also posted before about how if you look at the last 30 years- about 70% of the teams in the Finals (and 80% of the champions) were led by a superstar that team had drafted in the top 5. And the team had a lousy 50+ loss season before drafting that superstar. And the other 30% often had horrible seasons where they traded lottery picks for established stars (like Boston.)

So this belief that you can get to the finals without previously being a lousy team does not really hold up to scrutiny.

[Kobblehead]

I'd rather compete each year (even if we aren't title contenders) and slowly build a fanbase than be lousy for a few years hoping to strike gold in drafting a superstar. I'm under the belief that great coaching, chemistry, and stability can overcome talent in the right circumstance.

[ChuckS]

ChuckS, I've also posted before about how if you look at the last 30 years- about 70% of the teams in the Finals (and 80% of the champions) were led by a superstar that team had drafted in the top 5. And the team had a lousy 50+ loss season before drafting that superstar. And the other 30% often had horrible seasons where they traded lottery picks for established stars (like Boston.)

So this belief that you can get to the finals without previously being a lousy team does not really hold up to scrutiny.

Actually, as you pointed out previously, the Lakers did not draft Kobe, but gave up Divac to get him from Charlotte, and they got Pau because of the "kindness of strangers". I do not know how much of the 80% is attributable to LA, but believe it should not be in there.

While Boston did indeed stink for quite a while, they, too, got two of their superstars via trade.

The Spurs were the only team who got Duncan because they stunk for one year. But I suggest that was a fluke, and they already had a very good team before.

Actually what I am trying to convey without seeming too stupid is that I do not care if we get to the finals if it requires many more years of unwatchable basketball.

Stefanski has held onto younger players... but if anything he tried more of a win now approach with Brand/Iguodala/Miller/Sam. It failed, so it moved them back to the rebuilding phase.

So I think Stefanski tried to do exactly what you are suggest by putting together a more veteran squad who should have been good but not great.

I strongly disagree. First, Iguodala was and is a young player. Are you using dog years?

With the exception of Brand and Kapono, if you look at the roster, he pretty much gutted it of veteran players. His most disastrous move was losing Miller because he stupidly believed we would be better with Williams. He claims to have given up Korver to play Thad. He sat Sam to develop Marreese and then ultimately dumped him, in spite of the cap potential of his expiring contract. Regardless of what he or anyone else said, I am convinced that we stunk because he forced Cheeks and DiLeo to play the newbies over Billy King vets.

Stefanski has done just the opposite of what I am suggesting. Do not blame him on me!

[Slacktard]

I'm not sure what precedence in NBA history fuels that belief of yours, is it the one NBA team who fits that criteria who won a championship in the last 30 years of the NBA? That's 1 out of 30, which is 3.33% chance.

The Spurs stunk because they had one of the top-10 players in the league at one of the most critical positions in the league(center) miss the entire season. The Sixers have no similar player. If your hope is that two of Iguodala, Jrue, and Evan Turner get hurt and miss an entire season to let the Sixers finish bad enough for a #1 pick then I think that's a crazy way of looking at things.

The Lakers situation with Kobe is unlikely to happen again. Kobe slid for two factors, #1 he was a high school guard. There was no comparison on how a high school guard coming into the NBA would do. #2) Once he slid down a bit he was telling certain teams he wouldn't play there and that he would go to Italy.

If you're hoping for a repeat of that scenario... Again it seems highly unlikely.

I can understand if you and other fans say they prefer to watch the team win and make the playoffs even if they won't contend for a title. That's well within any fans right, there's just a vocal group on these boards who want to see the Sixers build themselves to actually contend for that title and the most logical way to do it is the way that has won 29 out of the last 30 titles and not the 1 freak occurrence IMO.

Hell even that Pistons team TRADED their best all-everything player prior to forming the core of that team. In the summer of 2000 the Pistons traded a 27 year old Grant Hill to Orlando in a sign & trade and got back Chucky Atkins and Ben Wallace.

Andre Iguodala is no Grant Hill.

[bebopdeluxe]

I'd rather compete each year (even if we aren't title contenders) and slowly build a fanbase than be lousy for a few years hoping to strike gold in drafting a superstar. I'm under the belief that great coaching, chemistry, and stability can overcome talent in the right circumstance.

This.

Making two assumptions that I trust are not ridiculous to the board (that Brand returns to be a 16/8 guy that shoots 48-49% from the field and plays credible low-post defense and that Turner is closer to the player we expect that what he showed in Orlando), I think that Collins can coach this team to 42-45 wins THIS season...and with the addition of a halfway decent defensive big next summer and a year of growth from this core, this could be a 50-win team in 2011-12 that gets homecourt and wins a round. After that, who knows what happens? Perhaps we can move Brand during the 2012-13 season to get another major piece. Perhaps we can let Brand's contract roll off and we could pick up a Howard or Horford.

But, given that we now have a good coach and some quality, coachable young talent, I am in ZERO mood to pizz away the next 2-3 season waiting for Brand to go away. Dont trade Iguodala unless we get QUALITY back (this Jordan + TPE trade looks ridiculous to me...add Gibson to the mix, and I get interested a little...).

I want to ENJOY watching Jrue, Turner, Iguodala and the others learn how to play WINNING basketball...and even if we don't win a CHIP, I want to have fun watching my team grow.

[ExplosionsInDaSky]

I for one want to see us make the playoffs and atleast try and compete. The reason being is because most organizations around the league minus the LA Clippers realize that when they see their team in the playoffs, they see that as a sign that things are moving a step closer.
For example the Milwaukee Bucks made the playoffs last year and took Atlanta to seven games. It was evident that they are an improving team and with just maybe another added piece they might have a chance to move further. They then went out and got Corey Maggette and signed a valuable big in Drew Gooden. They also drafted Larry Sanders and Darington Hobson (two rookies I think will play right away). Those acquisitions paired with the talent Milwaukee already has tells me that they have a chance to win a round or two in the playoffs and maybe go further.
The same can happen for us.... If we make the playoffs this year with the young talent that we have and are competitive it will only better our future. It shows we are headed in the right direction and the possibility of adding that one player that could elevate us to title status becomes a reality.

[Mahorn at the 4]

Sixerfan, thanks for the info...and keep it coming! lol

Personally, I think that Cuban eventually becomes willing to take Brand.

It will be an interesting summer.

[ExplosionsInDaSky]

I don't think we see Brand moved until
A. He still can't get it even under the guidance of Doug Collins
B. We are clearly not in the mix for the playoffs

Unfortunately for the Brand haters I don't think either will happen. I think Brand comes back pretty solid for us and I think we make the playoffs.

[bebopdeluxe]

I don't think we see Brand moved until
A. He still can't get it even under the guidance of Doug Collins
B. We are clearly not in the mix for the playoffs

Unfortunately for the Brand haters I don't think either will happen. I think Brand comes back pretty solid for us and I think we make the playoffs.

+1

People talk about Brand like he is done and has ZERO chance of coming back and being an effective player. He was an effective player LAST SEASON - when he got consistent minutes. People think that it is a stretch to expect Brand to play 30 effective minutes a game. He averaged OVER 30 minutes a game LAST SEASON - including a 7-game stretch in late-Jan and early-Feb where he averaged over thirty-EIGHT minutes a game (and had a 23/8 against IND, an 26/10 against MIL and a 26/9 against CHI during that span).

Brand will do for this team what Otis Thorpe did for Collins' DET teams - be an effective low-post defender and the 3rd-4th offensive option...and, in fact, Brand should be even better than Thorpe in that regard.

[Krapinsky]

Just a heads up --

Now that MN has the TPE from the Al Jefferson deal, a couple of off the ball SF prospects, and a couple of future firsts, expect a lot of Wolves fans making Iggy offers in the upcoming weeks ahead as well as some inevitable speculation.

[Bring Back 1983]

I hate to wish ill will on any fan base, but we all need to pray that Billy King gets this job with New Jersey so that Elton Brand can have the fresh start he deserves.

[BringBackKorver]

Just a heads up --

Now that MN has the TPE from the Al Jefferson deal, a couple of off the ball SF prospects, and a couple of future firsts, expect a lot of Wolves fans making Iggy offers in the upcoming weeks ahead as well as some inevitable speculation.

I can't imagine you guys have a lot to offer though. Without Jefferson you're going to be keeping Love and Pekovic, Rubio is still a year or 2 away, Johnson isn't available, and nothing else is enough value to get Iguodala. As long as all the deals aren't "Our TPE for Iguodala," I'm interested in seeing what they throw our way.

[ZarcMumoff]

As much as I would love for the Sixers to swing another deal this summer, I think that in the big picture of things, they are much better off holding onto their players and waiting for the right deal to come around either at the deadline or next summer.

I would really hate to see us unload some of our chips for very little now and then see some all-star/superstar push his way onto the trade market and us not be in a position to obtain them. I remember Doug Collins talking about how the Celtics were built and how they were somewhat lucky that both Allen and Garnett were able to be had that summer. He said that you have to position yourself as a franchise to be lucky and I think that is what the Sixers are doing.

Get young talent in here, have short-term deals, and then be ready to strike when someone is made available via trade. The question I have is who is out there that might want out besides Chris Paul?

This.

Also, I do want to see Iguodala/Turner/Jrue play. If it works, we are set with our perimeter. Hopefully Brand can get back to 16/7.5 and maybe we make some noise in the playoffs. What sucks about that though, is Ed and Doug will be reluctant to trade Brand because now they see we're "competing".

IMO, this is the ideal season...

-Jrue/Turner/Iguodala work out perfectly. Iguodala is playing off the ball.
-Brand gets back to a good PF, averaging 16/7.5 off the Pick and Pop with Jrue.
-Speights shows a willingness to be an (realistically) average defender. He averages about 13/7 and shows a lot of promise, and ED SEES THIS AND TRADES BRAND TO THE MAVERICKS FOR DAMPIER!
-Hopefully Thad (Improves his 3 ball) and Hawes (D and rebounding) improve as well.
-We get a playoff birth against...
Heat - We steal Game 1 in Miami, and play tough and scrappy and have that "Never Give Up" attitude.
or
Celtics - We play a tough, fiery 7 Game series, and *hopefully* win (I just want to see us play hard against the Celtics, and win would be a HUGE plus)

[Sixerlover]

Beasley's name will be thrown around for sure, Brewer?, Ellington (their going to try to use the hometown card)..

Either way that's a deal that minus Love, I don't see getting done. Didn't we already go through this with Minny a month ago at this time?

Any way, I'm with ChuckS and Kobblehead in that I'd rather see the young guys we have now develop and hopefully make the playoffs, instead of gutting the team of the only 2 vets we have (Iguodala and Brand) and try to build with a completely young squad and hope from that. I really don't like when people call it the "OKC" method either because the only reason they are a good team is because Kevin Durant is a freak of nature and a top 5 player in the league at 21. How many of those will be in the draft?

I'd rather call it the Chicago Bulls method. Especially if your managment is as poor as ours it outside of DiLeo. Chicago has been accumulating lottery picks since what '01? And they have no 2nd round appearances to show for it? I don't want that to end up being Philly..

[radrmd216]

I skimmed through the last couple pages, but I think I got what was said.

TK, I agree with you.

ChuckS, I'm saying if the Sixers trade Iggy they can get a good young player. Obviously I hope the player in the trade comes close to or exceeds the value of Iggy, but it won't be certain, and that is why the team might make the trade in the first place.

I don't know where you get that I think the current roster can become a championship contending team. if i thought that i wouldn;t think they need a top lottery talent. Also I only said a top lottery pick in '11 not for 2-5 years in a row.

I think without Iggy the Sixers will probably get a fairly high lottery pick. They would play the young guys and it would be good to see them develop but frustrating to see them make mistakes. For this one upcoming season though we would see bad play. The Sixers definitely cannot get a top lottery pick in '12, so that leaves '11 as the top lottery pick year and '12 and beyond the years for development. I think in '12 jrue and Turner can make this team exciting to watch.

Basically comes down to two things:
Jrue, Turner, player in Iggy deal, '11 lottery pick, whoever stays out of Lou, Thad, Speights, and Hawes, and cap space
vs.
Iggy, no cap space and a mid round pick.

I think the package of younger talent and cap space is better becuase you could keep the players or package them in a trade. Also in a few years young talent on rookie deals plus brand's expiring could make the Sixers future very bright. Again i don't see where the years of horrible basketball are. I would take a bad year for chance of great years or at worst a decent team over several years of mediocrity.

[Sixerlover]

Basically comes down to two things:
Jrue, Turner, player in Iggy deal, '11 lottery pick, whoever stays out of Lou, Thad, Speights, and Hawes, and cap space
vs.
Jrue, Turner, Iggy, '11 mid round pick, whoever stays out of Lou, Thad, Speights, and Hawes, no cap space

I think the package of younger talent and cap space is better becuase you could keep the players or package them in a trade. Also in a few years young talent on rookie deals plus brand's expiring could make the Sixers future very bright. Again i don't see where the years of horrible basketball are. I would take a bad year for chance of great years or at worst a decent team over several years of mediocrity.

fixed

Shows the reality of both the situations. One situation includes a 17,6 and 6 player who is young, with a large contract while the other situation shows another younger player to add to the current youth movement we already have

[tk76]

ChuckS, I'm saying if the Sixers trade Iggy they can get a good young player. Obviously I hope the player in the trade comes close to or exceeds the value of Iggy, but it won't be certain, and that is why the team might make the trade in the first place.

I don't know where you get that I think the current roster can become a championship contending team. if i thought that i wouldn;t think they need a top lottery talent. Also I only said a top lottery pick in '11 not for 2-5 years in a row.

Yeah, like I said before, their young players should all be close to entering their prime- so I do not see a 5 years prolonged rebuilding- whether they keep Iguodala or not. It really comes down to targeting 2-3 years from now as when this current team enters its peak. And whether you think Iguodala at 28-30 should be part of that.

Talent/age suggests that you should keep Iguodala. Especially if the return is pennies on the dollar. But it becomes a tougher issue looking at the teams finances and if you are offered a top prospect who meshes well with the rest of the roster... So I'm not saying we should be looking to "dump" Iguodala. But I am apposed to trading guys like Thad or Speights for short term Nocioni-like vets to try and win a few more games short term.

We
stuck with these young guys for a long time now- and hopefully the p[ay off will be soon. Absolutely no compelling reason to go "Bobcats" and star bringing in 30 year olds with bad contracts in the hope of a shallow playoff run.

[sixerfan1976]

houston is also interested in iguodala.

willing to give Ariza and filler.

Still sounds like we are trying to move thad or kapono instead.