The Sixerfan1976 Off-Season Thread (Update: Page 61)

[Slacktard]

I'd want this to be a part of a Houston trade

Houston has the right to swap their own 2011 1st round pick with New York's own 1st round pick so long as New York's 2011 1st round pick is not the 1st overall selection in the 2011 NBA Draft. [Houston - New York - Sacramento, 2/18/2010]

So we get Houston's first with the rights to swap it with the Knick's first if the Knick's aren't 1st overall. I don't see the Knicks having improved themselves very much, I expect them to be back in the lottery. With a lucky ping-pong bounce who knows maybe its a #2 or #3 pick.

[bebopdeluxe]

I think that someone is going to have to bowl us over with an offer to trade Iguodala. Why do it now? Assuming that Brand returns to a reasonable level of production and Collins can figure out how to get 30 productive minutes out of either Hawes or Speights, this should be a competative team pretty quickly and could get into something fun to watch by the All-Star break. And if I am wrong on that, we can decide to trade Iggy (or something else) by the deadline.

I think that nothing happens of substance before the season starts.

[ExplosionsInDaSky]

"sixerswillrule"]Iguodala is the far better player.

I agree... Iguodala is the better overall player but Ariza holds his own. He's a good defender and in this offense he can be a stretch player while Holiday and Turner handle the ball.

Ariza is not even a better shooter.

He's the better outside shooter in my opinion. Without using stats to back that up I think he's just the more natural outside shooter.

Their jumpshot efg percentages were identical last season, and Ariza was assisted more often.

Of course he was assisted more often... He plays off the ball unlike Iguodala who needs the ball to be effective. LOOK i'm not saying that Ariza is better. I'm saying that with our current team the way it is constructed and with us seemingly commited to Evan Turner as a major focal point for this franchise for the next 8-10 years that it would be wise to try and atleast shop Iguodala. Getting an off the ball shooter who can score and defend well in return isn't a bad thing in my opinion. Ariza is a rotational player that Stefanski was talking about if I remember correctly. If Chuck Hayes is added to the deal i'm fine with it. Asking for a first round pick along with Ariza suggests that you are overrating Iguodala. If that is the case why not offer Iguodala for Deron Williams?

Unless you're just going off of his playoff performance with the Lakers, which was probably a fluke, they are equal shooters.

Yeah... It was a total fluke in the triangle offense run by the greatest mind in basketball for the last 30 years that Ariza was a success. It was also a fluke how he then went to Houston and had a career year last season.

Iguodala is the better ball-handler, the better passer, the playmaker, simply the far better player overall.

I agree man.... But like I said we seem to have Jrue Holiday, Evan Turner, and Louis Williams on the roster as well. All three need the ball just like Iguodala to be effective. I'm not saying that is the sole reason for trading Iguodala but if we can trade him for a player that AGAIN.....Plays off the ball and can be effective and is a good defender than I am all for it.

Houston was a solid team despite Ariza's play, not because of it.

What are you talking about? They didn't even make the playoffs! Your putting the blame solely on Ariza because of that? I guess Ariza's play had nothing to do with the Lakers winning a ring either?

No way do I trade Iguodala for him unless there is a significant amount of value attached.

Like what??? You aren't getting a superstar in return for him.. please understand that.

[Sixerscan]

Ariza is no where near the player Iguodala is.

I would do Ariza and Hayes for Iguodala.

All i'm saying is that Ariza would be better for our current team. Chuck Hayes would add some much needed depth in the frontcourt despite being a short 6'6.
Reasons why I think Ariza might be a better fit for us would be mainly because he spaces the floor for us and gives us a big time shooter from beyond the arc. He jacked up 400 threes last season and his percentage was not all that high but I think it was because they were trying to use him as a number one option when he clearly is not. After they got Kevin Martin, Ariza seemed to settle down a bit. Ariza is also a capable defender for his position so we wouldn't be lacking in that area if we did get him. My question is would he start or would Thad start?

Much like Ariza, if Iguodala doesn't have to carry such a large load (Their usage rates and shots per game were almost identical, with Iguodala being significantly more efficient) he's percentages will go up.

More I think about it, I'd need some kind of pick back from Houston to do that. Hayes is starting to get a little overrated.

[KrazySixersD]

i wonder if we could find a way to get ariza and scola back if we added something with iguodala

[theo42]

I need more than Ariza. Didn't really do a good job in his first opportunity to start. Not even very effective from downtown.

It also complicates our SF position and does not solve our front court problem.

[ExplosionsInDaSky]

"Sixerscan

Much like Ariza, if Iguodala doesn't have to carry such a large load (Their usage rates and shots per game were almost identical, with Iguodala being significantly more efficient) he's percentages will go up.

More I think about it, I'd need some kind of pick back from Houston to do that. Hayes is starting to get a little overrated.

I can just see Iguodala not being the focal of the offense anymore with Holiday emerging and Turner now here as well. Iguodala could end up being relegated to defensive stopper on defense and a jumpshooter on offense because of this. Atleast I think thats possible. In my opinion regardless of what percentages or stats say Ariza is the better spot up jumpshooter in a situation such as the one I described. Maybe i'm wrong though.

[ExplosionsInDaSky]

I need more than Ariza. Didn't really do a good job in his first opportunity to start. Not even very effective from downtown.

It also complicates our SF position and does not solve our front court problem.

How does it complicate our small forward position? If anything it opens up opportunity for Thaddeus Young and Nocioni. I also disagree that Ariza didn't do a good job as a starter. He averaged about 15 ppg and nearly 2 steals as a starter. While Houston didn't win anything I don't see where it was strictly his fault. Trevor Ariza is a starter on some teams and a great rotation player on other teams. I think he would be of major value here though either as a starter or rotation player.
Of course Houston would have to offer up a filler of some sort that is pleasing on paper for the deal to happen. It would also be nice if they could take Willie Green off our hands.

[tk76]

I think that someone is going to have to bowl us over with an offer to trade Iguodala. Why do it now? Assuming that Brand returns to a reasonable level of production and Collins can figure out how to get 30 productive minutes out of either Hawes or Speights, this should be a competative team pretty quickly and could get into something fun to watch by the All-Star break. And if I am wrong on that, we can decide to trade Iggy (or something else) by the deadline.

This is the summer where teams have cap space and can absorb contracts. This is when all of the players will change teams.

The dedline will not be active, except for teams wanting to dump long term salary before the lock-out. So if you do think Iguodala should be traded for value- this would be the time.

I am not sure they should trade him- but I would not hesitate- because his value will go down.

[phiphan]

Ariza is no where near the player Iguodala is.

I would do Ariza and Hayes for Iguodala.

Why would Chuck Hayes be the deal maker for you? He stinks.

I'd probably pull the trigger if they offered Jordan Hill with Ariza. Hill showed something in last season's garbage games at the end of the year. He's a good rebounder (potentially very good) and a fairly efficient scorer. It would give us a decent PF prospect to match with Jrue / Turner. Ariza would be a place-holder at the 3, but besides he's a bit younger than Iguodala.

[theo42]

I imagine if we are adding a guy making 8 mill a season that he is either going to start or play major minutes at the 3. That is not what we need if we think Thad can play the 3. That's all. I don't think Ariza is better than Thad if he was given the chance to strart and play major minutes at the 3.

Ariza shot under 40 percent from the field and shot Iguodala like from down town. There is a reason Houston is trying to move him.

I'm not against Ariza and actually like him as a player, but I don't think this solves any problems that we have and moves a good player for the sake of moving him.

[KrazySixersD]

i also want nothing to do with hayes

[ZarcMumoff]

I'm an Ariza fan. He is very good defensively and slightly younger. Something like this...

Iguodala and Green

for

Ariza, Jeffries, Taylor, 1st Round Pick

[sixerswillrule]

He's the better outside shooter in my opinion. Without using stats to back that up I think he's just the more natural outside shooter.

So you're basing it off of nothing.

Of course he was assisted more often... He plays off the ball unlike Iguodala who needs the ball to be effective.

Which means he was created for by other players more often, meaning he had more open looks, meaning he should have shot a higher percentage. But he didn't. He's not a better shooter. If anything, Iguodala was the better shooter last season because he had to create for himself more often, take tougher shots, and still his eFG% on jumpers was equal to Ariza.

Yeah... It was a total fluke in the triangle offense run by the greatest mind in basketball for the last 30 years that Ariza was a success.

His hot shooting was probably a fluke, yes. He's not playing for the Lakers anymore.

It was also a fluke how he then went to Houston and had a career year last season.

Career volume = career year? Like I said, his true shooting percentage was 49%. That's terrible. Offensively he was really, really bad last season and for the most part only hurt his team on that side of the ball.

I agree man.... But like I said we seem to have Jrue Holiday, Evan Turner, and Louis Williams on the roster as well. All three need the ball just like Iguodala to be effective. I'm not saying that is the sole reason for trading Iguodala but if we can trade him for a player that AGAIN.....Plays off the ball and can be effective and is a good defender than I am all for it.

Effective as in the role he played for the Lakers? Well, that is the role that fits him. A 30 mpg player who, if starting, should be the worst starter on that team if his team wants to contend. Which shows that he is far inferior to Iguodala.

What are you talking about? They didn't even make the playoffs! Your putting the blame solely on Ariza because of that?

I'm saying if someone wants to praise Ariza for his play last season because his team was decent, don't. They were decent because of Brooks, Scola, and Landry. Not because of him.

Like what???

I already said.

You aren't getting a superstar in return for him.. please understand that.

When did I say that we will?

[corwin]

i also want nothing to do with hayes

They say he's pretty effective down low but the guy isn't even 6'7" in shoes. That makes him shorter than Evan Turner.

[bebopdeluxe]

I think that someone is going to have to bowl us over with an offer to trade Iguodala. Why do it now? Assuming that Brand returns to a reasonable level of production and Collins can figure out how to get 30 productive minutes out of either Hawes or Speights, this should be a competative team pretty quickly and could get into something fun to watch by the All-Star break. And if I am wrong on that, we can decide to trade Iggy (or something else) by the deadline.

This is the summer where teams have cap space and can absorb contracts. This is when all of the players will change teams.

The dedline will not be active, except for teams wanting to dump long term salary before the lock-out. So if you do think Iguodala should be traded for value- this would be the time.

I am not sure they should trade him- but I would not hesitate- because his value will go down.

Don't disagree with that premise, bro...it's just that Collins might actually think that he has something here with what he has, and if he does, I would think that Iguodala - being a pretty good player - is an important piece....one that doesn't get moved for TPE's or young, raw bigs.

To me, the best case scenario is to develop the talent on this team to its best possible outcome (which could be a 50-win team in 2011-12), and then hope that the replacement for Brand is what we all thought Brand would be - the guy to take the team to the next level.

[philly262]

I've been going over a houston trade for awhile.....

My idea was a Ariza, Jordan Hill and Houston's pick, along with the right to switch with the Knicks pick.

And the Sixers would give up Iguodala and Jason Smith.

It works under the salary cap, the Rockets have a very good backcourt in Iggy and Kevin Martin with Yao down low.

The Sixers get a good wing defender who's about half the player Iggy is but he's paid according, and then we get a young big with good defense, and has hustler's mentatitly, and depending on how the Knicks do we might have a lottery pick.

[ChuckS]

[quote="Slacktard"]I'm not sure what precedence in NBA history fuels that belief of yours, is it the one NBA team who fits that criteria who won a championship in the last 30 years of the NBA? That's 1 out of 30, which is 3.33% chance.[/quote]

I apologize for not responding, but I didn't believe you were referring to me since I was advocating no method for winning a championship. I even went so far as to admit I didn't care if we didn't make the finals as long as we played good ball. I did point out, however, that the draft has not been the only way to get a superstar, and sucking for years on the slim chance that we might luck out in any year that one really is available did not appeal to me.

I also implied that our chances for winning a championship were so slight that I preferred to just try to be good and competitive and let the chips fall where they may. Two in fifty years is hardly an indication of geat likelihood. Hell, LA has won more than half of them in the last thirty years, and I think Miami is poised to be the Lakers East. I think that, after years of losing, if we do get someone with promise he will most likely jump to a winning franchise after his rookie contract.

But, since you mentioned it -- if we are not going to win it all anyway -- I could live with the Detroit model. I still believe that if we can even get close to really good, we will have a better chance of improving with trades or free agency.

I also believe that this convoluted lottery has the potential for affecting the integrity of the game, if it has not already. Since it has done little to achieve its goal of preventing the rich from getting richer, I prefer just throwing names in a hat.

But the other day, I had this great new idea. I thought "Screw everything. Let's just try to play the right way."

[ExplosionsInDaSky]

"sixerswillrule"

So you're basing it off of nothing.

Not everything is based on stats. While stats do provide factual evidence of ones production in the NBA it doesn't always mean everything. I was basing on Ariza being a good fit here because it fees up the need for another ball dominant player on our team.

Which means he was created for by other players more often, meaning he had more open looks, meaning he should have shot a higher percentage.

Very true I wont argue that at all with you. That wasn't your original point though. You were saying that Iguodala is the better creator which is also true. I was saying that we have enough creators already in Holiday and Turner and that the need for a shooter that could spread the floor might be a better fit as opposed to having a third facilitator on offense who has a hard time playing without the ball.

His hot shooting was probably a fluke, yes. He's not playing for the Lakers anymore.

Thats right... all his shots stopped going in once the finals ended and Ariza regressed from an 8ppg scorer to a 15 ppg scorer on a new team that had limited options and was without their franchise center for the year. Look the debate isn't about Trevor Ariza. It's about whether or not he's a good fit here.

Effective as in the role he played for the Lakers?

Yeah.... Great defender... decent spot up shooter from outside... Stretch the defense... Allow Holiday and Turner to do their work... Allow Brand to get his touches... Allow Young to get his touches.

Well, that is the role that fits him. A 30 mpg player who, if starting, should be the worst starter on that team if his team wants to contend. Which shows that he is far inferior to Iguodala.

I wouldn't even expect 30 minutes per game from Ariza if he was here. It would be more like 20 and Young would get the nod.

I'm saying if someone wants to praise Ariza for his play last season because his team was decent, don't. They were decent because of Brooks, Scola, and Landry. Not because of him.

They weren't decent though... They didn't even make the playoffs.

When did I say that we will?

By saying that Ariza isn't even in the same galaxy as Iguodala suggests that you consider Iguodala to be an all star player and that we should get max value in return for him.
You contradict yourself by using stats to back up your argument but when I use them you act as if there is ill logic behind them.
I"m not getting into this anymore with you but I will end it with this.....

1. Iguodala is not a superstar player.. I'm not saying that Ariza is.... But I think we should really consider this deal if the filler is good enough. I don't see Ariza plus a first round pick happening but it would be nice if it did. If i'm Philly and Houston offers me Ariza and kyle Lowry for Iguodala and Louis Williams or something of that nature I do it.

[BringBackKorver]

I wouldn't even expect 30 minutes per game from Ariza if he was here. It would be more like 20 and Young would get the nod.

So you're going to trade Iguodala for a 20 minute per game player? Might as well just trade him for a TPE if that's all you think he's worth.