The Sixerfan1976 Off-Season Thread (Update: Page 61)

[PhilasFinest]

Evan Turner is the biggest key to this trade...

If he is the real deal or you at least think he is or can be, and the team wants to build around him and jrue.... then you do this.
you bring in a player that fits next to the 2 at the SF spot in Ariza, and also fits in long term as he is only 25 and signed for the next couple years at an extremely reasonable deal...basically the MLE.

HIll would give us a solid potential young big, with size, some skill and someone who actually hustles and rebounds...and is on a rookie deal as well.

[sixerswillrule]

Where is this coming from that Ariza controls the ball less than Andre does? Last year (AKA the only year he averaged over 9 points a game) him and Iguodala had almost identical usage rates and shots per game.

Moreover, for their careers

Ariza averages 11.1 shots per 36 minutes
Iguodala averages 11.2 shots per 36 minutes

In fact, I would argue Ariza is even more of a chucker than Iguodala because he doesn't have anywhere near the handles Andre does to create looks for himself and teammates.

Hill and Ariza is not enough. Hill's value derives from the Knicks thinking he was worth the 8th overall pick last year. Otherwise he's just like every other big man that doesn't get it. We need Hayes or picks.

Exactly. Somehow, because Ariza provides nothing that Iguodala doesn't provide but much less, he's a better fit here? And because of that we're supposed to trade Iguodala for him with only a semi-good prospect like Hill? It's ridiculous...

[Krapinsky]

was told their offer was iguodala and jason smith for ariza, jeffries and jordan hill. Was not told of any picks being involved.

we told them we would get back to them and are still pursuing other options throughout the league involving thad and/or kapono

Would you guys rather have this, or Corey Brewer (at best a poor man's Ariza), two lottery protected future firsts (Utah and Memphis) and $10M in raw cap space?

If you want them you could also have Koufos and/or Ellington, but that ^^^ would be the gist of the deal.

[Kobblehead]

IMO if you want to trade Iguodala for a bargain version then I'd much rather have a guy like Terrence Williams- who is much younger and much cheaper.

Ariza is only 1 year younger and not exactly cheap. Iguodala could be your 3rd or 4th star on a great team. Ariza could not fill that role.

Much younger? What are you talking about? Terrence Williams was a 4 year player at Louisville. He just turned 23 years old. Which is 2 years younger than Trevor Ariza and 3 years younger than Iguodala.

[tk76]

IMO if you want to trade Iguodala for a bargain version then I'd much rather have a guy like Terrence Williams- who is much younger and much cheaper.

Ariza is only 1 year younger and not exactly cheap. Iguodala could be your 3rd or 4th star on a great team. Ariza could not fill that role.

Much younger? What are you talking about? Terrence Williams was a 4 year player at Louisville. He just turned 23 years old. Which is 2 years younger than Trevor Ariza and 3 years younger than Iguodala.

OK, I retract the word "much" Given Iguodala is still young at 26... But my point still stands.

-Ariza is making 6-8M per over the next 4 years and then will be 29 and looking for his last big deal.

-T.Will is has 3 more years making 2-3M, after which he will be the same age as what Igudoala is right now. This makes him a much more valuable building block than Ariza, and a better fit for where the rest of this teams roster stands.

[radrmd216]

I think that Wolves deal is an interesting option, but I would look for other deals first.

I like the idea of getting TWill in an Iggy trade, but I'm not a real big fan of trading wit division rivals. I guess it would have to depend on the trade.

[PhilasFinest]

im all for making moves and am open to all possibilities...

but i also would like to see what Iguodala can do with an actual coach with a sack this season, someone who knows the game and will look and tell him to his face what he needs to be doing and what NOT to do... not trying to make him gilbert arenas.

also with Turner on the court, teams will have to account for him...which should open things up for Iguodala...

[LarsV8]

Let me add some input from the other side.

Iggy is obviously better than Ariza, but not by the same ratio as thier salaries indicate. They both are similar players, giving alot of the same skills. The primary difference is Ariza is a slightly better outside shooter, and Iggy is a much better ball handler.

Ariza, for the most part, is misunderstood. Most see his numbers this year and think he is a bad player. The problem is, this year was abnormal. He came in and spent some time as our number one option, since McGrady faded to oblivion and Yao was out. We were forced to play a Battier/Ariza wing setup which just wasnt balanced very well. Ariza isnt a good shot creator, so it was just a bad setup from the begining. If you look at his numbers alongside good wings however, ie with Kobe and once Martin arrived in Houston, you will notice much much better numbers.

With Philly landing Turner, I think the FO would want the ball in his hands as much as possible. If thats the case, its foolish to pay Iggy a ton of money, if he isnt going to have the ball very much. Substitute Ariza for Iggy, you cut half the cost but still bring most of what Iggy would produce playing off the ball.

Houston on the other hand, doesnt have a ball dominant wing. Martin is an off the ball player and could desperately use a ball handling wing. Houston is also more competitive than Philly, at the moment, and has deeper pockets. As a 50+ win team, it makes more sense for Houston to be willing to pay the tax.

I think the principal swap of Ariza for Iggy actually makes both lineups better due to fit. Obviously Houston needs to add addition considerations to equalize value. The only true "fillers" on the Rockets are Andersen and Jeffries. They have neutral value. Hill and Hayes are NOT fillers. They are integral parts of our team. We have likely offered Hill because we are deep at PF and can afford to lose one of either Hill, Hayes or Patterson. I could see them offering a draft pick instead. I could also see the additional considerations as taking back a bad small contract. Maybe something like Ariza + Jeffries for Iggy + bad contract.

Anyway, just my two cents.

[Court_visioN]

you can't really expect us to buy that swapping Iguodala for Ariza makes the Sixers a better team, can you?

Personally, I don't like the deal. Ariza is best suited as a 4th or 5th option offensively while guarding the opposing team's 2nd best swingman. If anything I would acquire Ariza to play WITH Iguodala, not replace him. The Sixers really don't know what they have in Evan Turner yet, and his performance in the summer league leaves me doubtful that the team is suddenly looking to shop AI9.

This is the way I look at this trade. Do you get more value before or after the deal. Meaning would acquiring the expiring contract allow you to flip it and acquire a star? Or would you be able to clear enough cap room so that you can acquire a star through FA? Can you take Ariza and the pick and Hill or whoever else and trade it for a guy better or equal to Iguodala's level? I don't think you can, and therefore, I wouldn't pull the trigger on this particular trade.

Like TK76, I'd take a look at Terrence Williams, although I admit I wouldn't be happy with the team if the Nets jumped them in the standings this season either, lol.

I think the best course of action right now is to wait it out a bit, build guys' trade values up, and if we have the chance to do so at the deadline, flip Willie Green + Kapono + whichever of our young players (Speights, Lou, Thad) that don't fit with our team but other teams covet into a potential star. I think the Sixers more than a lot of teams out there have to wait and see what they have with this squad since last season was such a waste in terms of developing talent. It's unfortunate, but it's the position this team is in. We don't know much of anything about how our players will perform next season. For example, I wouldn't be surprised to see Thad average 18 ppg and 6 rpg next season, but I wouldn't be shocked if he averaged more like 12 ppg and 4 rpg.

[LarsV8]

A better team, no. A better fit, possibly, especially in the long run.

I think that Turner/Iggy <<< Turner/Ariza + one young asset + under the tax (from a management perspective anyway)

[Numb3rs]

I love the trade. We cannot win anything with Iguodala as our number 1 option. But I'm not entirely sure if turner is ready to take the reins of this team. So, you move Iggy for Ariza, he may only be two years younger but he's considerably cheaper and could be a better fit next to turner, if not you just bring him off the bench. I think people may also underestimate Jeffries, he has value as an expiring, at the deadline or as cap space, plus he could also excel as a hustle, tought D player if Collins and Ed decide he's more valueable on the team. And if we're not winning, you've got a PF prospect in Hill to give heavy minutes to and another high draft pick.

And also could someone clarify this pick thing for me? From what I gather, the Rockets got the right to swap draft picks with the Knicks in the T-Mac trade, correct?

[ZarcMumoff]

I understand the whole deal with keeping Iguodala. But when Iguodala's at his best, he should have the ball in his hands. Ariza, on the other hand, is much better suited with running off the ball. You can look at the usage rates, but that is what happens when you don't have anyone who is good with the ball in there hands. Ariza took over, and he did okay. But he is much better suited when playing off the ball.

He is a year younger, just as good defensive player, and cheaper. Plus, we can still contend with him this year. As much as with Iguodala? No. But even with Iguodala this year, we aren't competing for anything.

I'm all for keeping Iguodala if he does show he fits with Turner. But if we make this trade, I'll be fine with it. Do I think we should pull the trigger right away? Nope. We shouldn't be in any hurry. If we get a deal we love, we can do the deal. If not, wee see first hand how Iguodala and Turner work together.

I'm 90% sure Iguodala is a 76er though.

[Point-God]

That Houston deal is terrible. Ariza can't make a shot without Kobe and Hill is an outright bust who lacks the natural ability to finish around the length found in the NBA.

Ariza also has a known ticking time bomb regarding his health...

[philly262]

I would do the Ariza,Hill, Jefferies deal and the rockets pick with the right to swap with the Knicks.

I wouldn't do the trade unless the pick is involved...

I'm higher on Hill than most in this, so you add Hill and another 12-16 pick would be good value, Ariza would be a nice expiring, and Ariza is a stop gap for Iggy who's half the player at half the price.

[corwin]

I think they want to clear some money or at least gain some expirings but still put themselves in a position to compete..three expirings would make good trade bait at deadline.

Personally I think Jeffries and Hill are throw ins but I think Ariza is a perfect fit to this basketball team. Can play D..doesnt need to dribble the ball like Iguodala does.

Also like the deal for houston..jason smith gives them some size..and Brooks,Martin,Iguodala,Scola,Yao aint a bad group...

hope it happens...but was given no inclination that we are close to moving on anything.

plan is to play hard..become relevant again...and d up..other than that...I havent heard more of a formal plan than that.

Now we're really onto something about the FO''s thought processes. I always thought that reducing salary was one of their primary motivations because let's face it a lesser player, an expiring & a guy that has been a bust & who has been replaced by Patrick Patterson are not much of an offer for Iguodala. But with this move & a potential amnesty under a new CBA, this club won't have any pricey long-term commitments.

[corwin]

was told their offer was iguodala and jason smith for ariza, jeffries and jordan hill. Was not told of any picks being involved.

we told them we would get back to them and are still pursuing other options throughout the league involving thad and/or kapono

Would you guys rather have this, or Corey Brewer (at best a poor man's Ariza), two lottery protected future firsts (Utah and Memphis) and $10M in raw cap space?

If you want them you could also have Koufos and/or Ellington, but that ^^^ would be the gist of the deal.

Haven't really thought through your offer but I'm going to comment on the lottery protected first rounders. We have experience with those as the team received two from Denver for Iverson. One was used on Jason Smith & the other was used on Kaponen who was traded to Portland for the rights to Derek Byars. You can see how that played out.

[mkm2]

if the two primary goals are clearing salary and adding a defensive-minded vet that can shoot a bit, why not force the addition of battier to the deal? battier, jeffries, kapono and green create a ton of flexibility to either be players at the deadline or, gasp, potentially in free agency. the rockets aren't going to have cap room next summer, so that space isn't relevant to them. if they resign scola, iggy absolutely rounds out their starting five with a pretty good complement to kevin martin and aaron brooks.

that addition of someone like hill then gives you another young big option. i think both teams would win.

[51X3RF4N]

Where are people getting their opinions of Hill??

Granted, I've really not seen him play a whole bunch. But based solely on his numbers, he can't be that bad. He averaged 50% FG. He averaged 5ppg and almost 4rpg in 13 minutes. Give him 26 minutes at PF behind Brand and he should be getting around 10 and 8. Make him a starter with 35 mpg and he should be somewhere around 12 and 10.

Can anyone elaborate as to why he is a bust? Is there a good reason as to why he only got 13 minutes per game? How is his defense?

[51X3RF4N]

When I look at the Sixers current roster/contracts situation, I see the following.

Brand, Nocioni, Lou Will coming off the books in 2013.

Evan Turner and Iggy as the only other contracts to run into 2014. I would like to see the Sixers extend Jrue is possible before 2013. I'd like to see them sign Hawes to a 3-4 year deal this offseason. I'd like them to do the trade with Houston.

Then it all becomes part of a bigger plan.

If the Sixers can end up with Jrue/Turner/Ariza/Hill/Hawes/Meeks/2011 1st rounder/2012 1st rounder and nobody else under contract going into 2013, they could definitely attract Dwight Howard. You'd have room for a max deal for him. Plus you'd have a great young PG/SG combo. If Ariza continues to do what he's been doing, you could have a very good defensive team that is only missing a Center. Maybe you even have enough room to sign 2 max FA's. I'd have to think that in 2011 or 2012 the Sixers would be looking for a PF to replace Brand, and IMO it is not going to be Speights or Thad.

Maybe Jordan Hill steps up, or maybe he's a bench player.

Jrue/2012 1st rounder
Turner/Meeks
Ariza/Free Agent
2011 1st rounder/Hill
D12/Hawes

DAMN Sign me up.

[Skates]

I would MUCH prefer Patrick Patterson to be included over Hill. Hill is another soft, tease you with his athleticism big man (we alreadhy have one of those, thanks), hence why the Rockets drafted a tough as nails PF like Patterson this year.

Ariza is a shadow of the player Iggy is. Ariza, Patterson, a first rounder and filler, that is a trade I would consider. If Hill is any good he can be the Rocket's PF of the future.