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CLE wants Marvin? Shaq to ATL...

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CLE wants Marvin? Shaq to ATL... 

Post#1 » by ACE_reppin_ATL » Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:06 pm

CLE wants to get Marvin for Shaq

Keep in mind: we could get Shaq without using our MLE and open up even more cap for Horford in 2012/13 and we could also pick up Barnes or R. Brewer for cheap to help defend the perimeter!!! And Shaq is a Hall of Famer and would be better for us than Brad (Sad) Miller or Kwame (Dummy) Brown...

This could be our last chance this summer to put together a contender...WHY?

1. We picked Marvin over CP3 and Deron & we are paying dearly for that and will until (hopefully) Teague turns our PG flaws into a thing of the past. Yeah, I hate hearing it as much as you do and it rubs me the wrong way every time too, but it's reality and we need to do something about it...

2. Then we force Marvin to start in a lineup where he does NOT fit or find his game...Joe is #1 and Horford and Josh are better options in the lineup than Marvin...Marvin should be better offensively than Smoove, but he's not...

3. We also are paying between 7-8 MIL pretty much based on what he did in his contract year??? LOL!!! Every player goes hard in their contract year!!! Marvin's a real cool, laid back guys, who I met in person twice and I know he has a great relationship with teammates and he can ball...But a frontcourt of a healthy Shaq / Al / Smoove could put us into the Finals and give a shot to get rings...

4. Smoove needs to be our Gerald Wallace/Prince SF to guard Lebrons and Melos while Joe defends the Kobes and Wades....That allows Horford to be his natural PF next to a big Shaq inside....But moving Marvin to the bench would having us with about $17MIL (Marvin and Crawford) on our bench...Ugh!

5. Last but not least, we'd get SHAQ!!! Not dominating Shaq of the 90s and early 00s...But huge strong as #ell, drawing fans to Phillips, good footwork, league-wide respected, still commanding double teams from weak teams, and bang with any other big in the league SHAQ!!!! I'd let Marving go to CLE for more cap space. But to get Shaq and save some or all of our Mid-Level sounds great to me.
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Re: CLE wants Marvin? Shaq to ATL... 

Post#2 » by davefmcl » Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:05 pm

I like the idea of getting Shaq, but who becomes our SF? If Shaq starts at C, and move Horford to PF, does that move Josh Smith to SF or the bench. He is too good for the bench, but not a good fit at SF and might want to shoot more at SF!

Why can we just sign Shaq as a free agent? Didn't we get another MLE exception for Childress today?
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Re: CLE wants Marvin? Shaq to ATL... 

Post#3 » by D21 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:14 pm

If they are ready to do a sign-a-trade and that it requires more than Zaza because they want Shaq to get more than the MLE, they have to do Zaza+Evans, and maybe get another SF at minimum BAE.

And it certainly Shaq more than CLE who dreams of a sign-&-trade for Marvin, because it gives him more money than a direct signing which wouldn't be more than 3.5M because our owners DON'T TO PAY ANY TAX EVEN IF THEY TOLD THEY WOULD TO IMPROVE THE TEAM, and more it gives him more chance to get the starting C spot with Al at PF and Smith at SF, even if Drew don't want that.

It will also be funny when we will see Childress in PHX and Marvin in CLE getting more responsibilities and playing at a level they couldn't get in ATL, and see that they deserved more than a second round pick and a sign-&-trade for the C no team seems to want.
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Re: CLE wants Marvin? Shaq to ATL... 

Post#4 » by azuresou1 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:17 pm

From the other thread:

parson wrote:Shaq for Marvelous is stupid. Only a desperate management would make such a move.
1) Shaq's not worth Marvelous.
2) Shaq's not worth $6.5 million.
3) We'd have no starting SF.
4) We'd move Smoove to SF, killing his main defensive advantage and accentuating his worst offensive trait, resulting in a poor SF.
5) 48 minutes of Shaq/Zaza down low would RUIN Drew's offense.

Offer Zaza to CLE for Shaq in a SNT. SURE, they'd complain. SURE, they'd want a starting SF (in Marvelous), instead. That's exactly the reason we should keep him.
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Re: CLE wants Marvin? Shaq to ATL... 

Post#5 » by wizardg » Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:20 pm

I likes I likes!


Trading for Shaq would allow the Hawks to get Marvin off the books while getting something back they actually want. Marvin has 4 years left on his contract.

Who will play SF(when shaq in is about 24 mins)? That would get worked out over the course of the season.

Plan a.
Teague
Joe
Josh
Horford
Shaq.



Plan b.
JC
Joe
Mo (who was actually more effect than Marvin last year at SF)
Horford
Shaq.

Josh gets a chance a 6th man of the year.

plan C (which would have to happen after the allstar break because the other plans would need time to pass or fail.

Shaq comes off the bench.

Also next year Shaq becomes and expiring along with Bibby which may or may not be a needed asset. depending on what happens with Crawford.
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Re: CLE wants Marvin? Shaq to ATL... 

Post#6 » by HMFFL » Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:23 pm

Any trade that involves Marvin Williams for Shaq should also include a future first from Cleveland (or Miami). We may only get two years out of Shaq and Cleveland has no need for him.
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Re: CLE wants Marvin? Shaq to ATL... 

Post#7 » by geeman » Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:31 pm

[quoteReport this postReply with quoteRe: CLE wants Marvin? Shaq to ATL...
by HMFFL on Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:23 pm

Any trade that involves Marvin Williams for Shaq should also include a future first from Cleveland (or Miami). We may only get two years out of Shaq and Cleveland has no need for him.][/quote]


I agree, If it miami it's going to be a low first anyway
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Re: CLE wants Marvin? Shaq to ATL... 

Post#8 » by D21 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:35 pm

ACE_reppin_ATL wrote:4. Smoove needs to be our Gerald Wallace/Prince SF to guard Lebrons and Melos while Joe defends the Kobes and Wades....That allows Horford to be his natural PF next to a big Shaq inside....But moving Marvin to the bench would having us with about $17MIL (Marvin and Crawford) on our bench...Ugh!


Maybe on defense, but on offense ?
Drew knows Josh and doesn't want him away from the rim.

wizardg wrote:Trading for Shaq would allow the Hawks to get Marvin off the books


I have a problem these weeks with all the "off the books", because I see it like how ASG would want every fans to think.
We are playing their game by saying we want Bibby/Marvin off the books.

If we want to build a contender we need some guys like that, maybe more Bibby and than Marvin because of some things he can bring that younger player can't, and it's not by sending them away to get some virtual room to get another player that will help build a contender.
It can help to improve, but not as much as if they were spending like they say, and use this full MLE to get Shaq and pay 2M of Tax, instead of just wanting to give him 3.5M if it's not a sign-&-trade.

Do we see the real contender sending talent like Childress or Marvin away like that to get a old C that doesn't deserve more than 5M ?
No, they sign him using the MLE, and if they end up at 72M with the tax at 70M, then they pay 2M of Tax.

I would have dream about ASG spending like that, even for only one year, and I was thinking they would do it this summer since they said they will, but once again, they are not doing anything except stupid decisions, and there were some decisions that was not about paying any tax :
how is it possible that PHX loose Stoudemire but get a TPE and use it to improve ?
how is it possible that UTA loose Boozer, but get a TPE and use it to get Al Jefferson ?
These teams were in the same position than ATL, with a important player ready to walk for nothing.

Only ATL was afraid like that to loose him for nothing, while it was said that Joe was all about money, and he would not have walk for a 5yrs contract.
Both CLE and TOR got 1st round pick and TPE for James and Bosh.
Both PHX and UTA got TPE.

But instead, we see ATL owners so afraid that they give 124M to Joe on the first day.
They are the biggest joke of the summer, and should get a boycott of home games for that.
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Re: CLE wants Marvin? Shaq to ATL... 

Post#9 » by evildallas » Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:40 pm

I suggested this trade what seems like a long time ago (at least a week) and I don't see Shaq as a starter unless him comes in to the season in phenomenal shape (unlikely). My plan involved starting Childress instead but that ship has sailed. We could still sign someone like Matt Barnes, but the thought of paying Shaq more than the MLE was also when their was still competition to sign him. At this point the number of teams who have the MLE to offer are twindling because everyone is making other moves. If the Hawks do a deal it is to keep total spending down, not because they needed to do a trade to get Shaq.

What I would be willing to do is this trade:
Shaq (2 years 15M)
Anthony Parker
for
Marvin
Mike Bibby

We then use part of the MLE (staying under the luxury tax) to add Earl Watson.

Teague/Watson
Joe/Crawford/Crawford
Parker/Evans
Josh/Zaza
Al/Shaq

The 12th and 13th players would be minimum contract guys. If Shaq is too disruptive then we can still look into dealing Joe to a deep pocketed owner willing to go all out for a ring this year by the trade deadline.

It gives us a serviceable SF who's contract is expiring and allows us to turn Bibby into a better defensive PG replacement. I'd rather plug the defensive hole at PG than try to land another SF in free agency. Parker provides what we need for less than 3M a year. The trade also trims 1.5M in this year salary approximately and that helps to keep the cost of replacing Bibby under the tax threshold.

Edit: You could still throw a low pick in there from Cleveland. It doesn't disrupt the value of the trade for either team.
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Re: CLE wants Marvin? Shaq to ATL... 

Post#10 » by azuresou1 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:03 pm

Ugh.

Shaq is old, plays maybe 20 minutes a game, is a locker room cancer, and is just not good for us outside of when we face Orlando.
Parker is a SG, not a SF, and is not particularly good.
Bibby is not particularly good anymore either, but he can still be a spot up shooter.
Marvin played twice the minutes Shaq did last year, is entering his prime, and is not on a particularly bad contract for a SF.

Don't believe me about the last part?
Marvin Williams - 24 - 4/$30
-----------------------------------
Paul Pierce - 32 - 4/$61
Al Harrington - 30 - 5/$34
Corey Maggette - 30 - 3/$31
Mike Miller - 30 - 5/$30
Travis Outlaw - 25 - 5/$35
Tyrus Thomas - 23 - 5/$40

Besides, we SHOULD be looking to increase our salary figures, not look to reduce it.
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Re: CLE wants Marvin? Shaq to ATL... 

Post#11 » by KJizzle » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:25 pm

[quote="azuresou1"]Ugh.



Don't believe me about the last part?
Marvin Williams - 24 - 4/$30
-----------------------------------
Paul Pierce - 32 - 4/$61
Al Harrington - 30 - 5/$34
Corey Maggette - 30 - 3/$31
Mike Miller - 30 - 5/$30
Travis Outlaw - 25 - 5/$35
Tyrus Thomas - 23 - 5/$40

Besides, we SHOULD be looking to increase our salary figures, not look to reduce it.[/quote]

out if all those players who is marvin better than......................................don't worry i'll wait

I'd take shaq and sign T-Mac

Shaq is the best center out there, even Shaq as a shell of his former self is better than whats out there.

lets get Shaq and Mo S-n-T and look to move Bibby
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Re: CLE wants Marvin? Shaq to ATL... 

Post#12 » by azuresou1 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:32 pm

Marvin is on the same tier as all of them sans Pierce, and has a similar contract to all of them, again sans Pierce, who is also 8 years older and being paid twice as much.

Shaq IS the best C out there, and that's why we offered him a 2 year MLE deal that no other team in the league has even come close to approaching. There's no reason to offer up Marvin.
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Re: CLE wants Marvin? Shaq to ATL... 

Post#13 » by evildallas » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:46 pm

azuresou1 wrote:Ugh.

Shaq is old, plays maybe 20 minutes a game, is a locker room cancer, and is just not good for us outside of when we face Orlando.
Parker is a SG, not a SF, and is not particularly good.
Bibby is not particularly good anymore either, but he can still be a spot up shooter.
Marvin played twice the minutes Shaq did last year, is entering his prime, and is not on a particularly bad contract for a SF.

Don't believe me about the last part?
Marvin Williams - 24 - 4/$30
-----------------------------------
Paul Pierce - 32 - 4/$61
Al Harrington - 30 - 5/$34
Corey Maggette - 30 - 3/$31
Mike Miller - 30 - 5/$30
Travis Outlaw - 25 - 5/$35
Tyrus Thomas - 23 - 5/$40

Besides, we SHOULD be looking to increase our salary figures, not look to reduce it.


You make valid points that given the salaries this summer that Marvin isn't horribly overpaid, but we're talking the ASG aren't we. The thought of S&T for Shaq should have gone by the wayside when they gave Childress away. The things we still need to improve the team are a backup C with length and bulk and to replace Bibby with a defensive PG presence. If we don't do both of these things then we might as well do nothing because it won't matter. Bibby's ability to shoot isn't in question, but if he's on the floor he might as well be holding a sign that says attack here. That's a huge problem unless you have the erasers in the middle to make it not a problem.

If we give up Marvin in any deal then we also need an inexpensive fill in for him. I only suggest it because I understand the reality of our cheap ownership. I'd rather keep Marvin because I expect Joe to get traded this winter when it becomes apparent that we're a middle of the road team and I'm hopeful that with a less dominant SG in place that maybe Marvin spreads his wings a bit and is used more. You only deal Marvin if you are in the Joe Johnson boat long term. If you keep him in that situation you are consigning him to mediocrity and if he's okay with that then I'm not sure I want him on the team.

Cleveland has no use for Bibby, so my trade suggestion would probably get laughed at anyway.

BTW, possible C targets:
Shaq
Brad Miller
Erick Dampier (when cut)

possible PG targets:
Ramon Sessions (in trade)
Earl Watson
CJ Watson (restricted)
Shaun Livingston
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Re: CLE wants Marvin? Shaq to ATL... 

Post#14 » by KJizzle » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:56 pm

[quote="evildallas"][quote="azuresou1"]Ugh.



If we give up Marvin in any deal then we also need an inexpensive fill in for him. I only suggest it because I understand the reality of our cheap ownership. I'd rather keep Marvin because I expect Joe to get traded this winter when it becomes apparent that we're a middle of the road team and I'm hopeful that with a less dominant SG in place that maybe Marvin spreads his wings a bit and is used more. You only deal Marvin if you are in the Joe Johnson boat long term. If you keep him in that situation you are consigning him to mediocrity and if he's okay with that then I'm not sure I want him on the team.[/quote]

please with the Marvin will spread his wings crap if he hasn't done it yet he never will.
when Johnson was out he was the say except for one or 2 games i remember last season he had
back to back 20 ponts games and everyone thought maybe just maybe he has turned the corner
just as he always does he fall back into his old ways.

T-Mac is who i want
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Re: CLE wants Marvin? Shaq to ATL... 

Post#15 » by azuresou1 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:59 pm

- We can still sign Shaq outright with the MLE
- We do need a backup C - but the ASG passed up the chance to draft one with the #31. Why should I believe that now is any different? Also, Teague so far seems to be a very good (although not elite) defender at PG.
- Bibby is bad, but the Lakers had a Top 5 defense last season while starting Fish, who is just as bad. Bibby/Shaq on PnR defense is asking to be murdered.

I am not willing to give up on Marvin when we finally shed Woody and the Summer League ball movement has been refreshing.
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Re: CLE wants Marvin? Shaq to ATL... 

Post#16 » by azuresou1 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:01 pm

KJizzle wrote:
evildallas wrote:
azuresou1 wrote:Ugh.



If we give up Marvin in any deal then we also need an inexpensive fill in for him. I only suggest it because I understand the reality of our cheap ownership. I'd rather keep Marvin because I expect Joe to get traded this winter when it becomes apparent that we're a middle of the road team and I'm hopeful that with a less dominant SG in place that maybe Marvin spreads his wings a bit and is used more. You only deal Marvin if you are in the Joe Johnson boat long term. If you keep him in that situation you are consigning him to mediocrity and if he's okay with that then I'm not sure I want him on the team.


please with the Marvin will spread his wings crap if he hasn't done it yet he never will.
when Johnson was out he was the say except for one or 2 games i remember last season he had
back to back 20 ponts games and everyone thought maybe just maybe he has turned the corner
just as he always does he fall back into his old ways.

T-Mac is who i want


Marvin has a laughably low USG% and gets no shot attempts.

And you want T-Mac of all people? Do you even watch basketball? :roll:
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Re: CLE wants Marvin? Shaq to ATL... 

Post#17 » by evildallas » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:09 pm

Forget Livingston as a possibility, he signed in Charlotte.

Also there are two distinct camps of Hawks fans:
Ones who want some big names regardless of the condition of the players associated with them. These people want T-Mac, Allen Iverson, Shaq, etc. because they were former stars.

Ones who want to fill in skill sets regardless of names. These people will accept Shaq, but he isn't necessarily the 1st choice and want nothing to do with T-Mac and AI.

The two groups will never agree and it's a waste of time to debate further because we'll never see old stars in the same light.
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Re: CLE wants Marvin? Shaq to ATL... 

Post#18 » by azuresou1 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:20 pm

The former camp is stupid and should never ever be near basketball operations. That's a model of how to ruin a sports organization.

See: Isiah's Knicks.
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Re: CLE wants Marvin? Shaq to ATL... 

Post#19 » by D21 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:16 pm

KJizzle wrote:Shaq is the best center out there, even Shaq as a shell of his former self is better than whats out there.


We don't look at the total impact, that's why the two group seems to agreeing on something.
The question is not only "Is Shaq the best C available"

If ASG are cheap, and they seemed to be, they won't pay any tax, so if Shaq ask for more than 3.5M, it requires a sign-&-trade.
If Brad Miller ask for 3.5M, it doesn't require a sign-&-trade.

So it's not Shaq Vs Miller
it's Shaq WITHOUT Marvin (in this example) Vs Miller AND Marvin


Maybe Miller is not as good as Shaq, but maybe we don't loose Marvin in the move.
And like azuresou1 said, Marvin deserve a try in the new offense.
And even if we don't want him on the long terme, I prefer keep him and use him for another trade because we can add him to expiring Crawford to build a potential trade for a Max guy, and if a team wants to rebuild a bit, they could be interested in Marvin, more than Bibby or Zaza.

I won't change my opinion on that, Marvin has to be traded only in a deal like Marvin+Crawford for 15M player, or even add Zaza or Bibby if needed if we get two players.

Marvins is the best add-on to Crawford for a trade of relative value. He don't have to be send for a old player like Shaq.
And even if we end one day on trading Josh or Al to get a real starting C, Marvin will still be the best add-on to Josh or Al.

So no Marvin in a deal for Shaq.
Zaza or Zaza+Evans, but not Marvin.
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Re: CLE wants Marvin? Shaq to ATL... 

Post#20 » by KJizzle » Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:48 pm

[/quote]

Marvin has a laughably low USG% and gets no shot attempts.

And you want T-Mac of all people? Do you even watch basketball? :roll:[/quote]

well i mine not sure you watch much ball b/c the coach doesn't have a xbox controler in his
hand controling when the players shoot

that usg% craps kills me

i don't know if you play ball but when i and this SHOULD go for most ball player
when i'm in i have the CONFIDENCE to take shots and make something happen

there has been so many games where JJ and Crawford played like crap
and Marvin went 2-5.

he sucks Mo who is 3 in shorter than him plays better at the 3
and people say oh he's our best defender Grant hill the should have been retired from injury 30 something yr old tore his @ss up droping like 28 or something

Marvin is a nice guy but he doesn't bring anything to the table

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