Retro POY '80-81 (Voting Complete)

[semi-sentient]

Wasn't a sweep. 2-1 Rockets in a best of 3, and Houston won the deciding game by 3 points. I'd definitely like to get more details on it though. In retrospect though LA losing 2 home games to a 40 win team does look almost as bad a sweep.

Damn, forgot it was a best of 3... hehe. All the games were close too.

[ElGee]

I'd like to hear more about what went on in the Lakers/Rockets series. How and why did they get swept? What numbers did Malone post against Kareem? That's really the only reason I can't put Kareem first despite the great numbers. Getting swept in the first round by a sub .500 team seems inexcusable.

Read the article I posted on the series -- has some good information.

Furthermore, there are chunks of G1 on youtube...

By all accounts, the Lakers just weren't really The Lakers. There were chemistry issues with Magic coming back -- off the court and on it. Norm Nixon missed a few games to close the season because his grandmother died. He certainly doesn't look like his usual self in G1.

Magic didn't look right either. He misses a layup deep in the post. Posts again and misses a baby sky hook. Throws a horrible pass right to Moses Malone setting up the offense. Grabs a board and starts the break only to turn it over because he didn't see Murphy streaking back. He did hit a jumper at one point. I think the chemistry issues played a part in his play, despite a stat-line that looks fairly normal.

Kareem plays well. He commands double-teams in the posts, per usual. he's way more active on the glass, snatching an offensive rebounding in the lane at one point and beautifully transitioning into a skyhook. In transition, he grabs another offensive rebound and finishes with the Wilt finger roll. At one point he missed a skyhook but grabbed his own board over Paultz and finished for 2. He's there on help defense on the few necessary occasions and influences the shot.

On the Rockets side of the things, Mike Dunleavy is shooting well. Calvin Murphy, as usual, is a flame-thrower. Guy is making all sorts of twisted and crazy shots. There is a vintage games of his on youtube against San Antonio from the next round where he goes off for 40. Very impressive.

And of course Moses, who in G1, it seemed, didn't miss. Turnaround in lane. Cans an elbow jumper from a triple-threat position right over Chones. Obviously, he is a terror on the offensive glass. Inside position, clearing space for teammates even. Then another turnaround from 8 feet in the lane over Chones. He's swarmed and makes a double-teamed 10-foot faceup. He upfakes Cooper out of his shoes and is fouled at the rim blowing by him. He's doubled and kicks to Murphy for an open 2. Bill Russell thinks doubling off Murphy is a bad idea.

But Moses keeps coming with his jumper. Faceup from 15 over Abdul-Jabbar. Then hits a fade over Kareem. Lots of talk among the commentators about how improved his jumper is. Moses with 19 in the first half. 28 and 14 after 3 quarters (8 3rd Q rebounds). Kareem misses a handful of shots when guarded by Moses, although some of them were definitely good looks.

[ElGee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI7oPXu_vcU

[JordansBulls]

This is an incredibly hard year. 4th place here is at a level that could normally get #1.

I'm actually leaning Kareem #1. Just think if I had to take one of these players and seasons, I'd probably go with him. 26ppg on high shooting % while spreading the floor offensively and fitting with everyone, 10rpg+, and 3bpg and 1st team all-defense? And his playoffs were fine, shooting % dropped but so did everyone's in the top 4 and he put up monster rebounds #s against Moses no less. In the 1981 season draft, Kareem probably goes 1 for me because nobody has a more complete impact on both offense and defense.

I'd take Bird by a bit over Erving because I like players who's shooting opens up the floor for teammates. Erving's jumpshot was a bit better at this point than earlier in his career, but still had questions. Also Bird's playoff rebounding was awesome and he beat Erving head to head. So Bird ahead of Erving.

Moses had a pretty awesome year, 28/15 and went to the finals. In the PS he doesn't have the rb advantage over Bird so it comes down to offense. I prefer Bird offensively due to his playmaking, the space he opens up and ability to control the game. So I'll put Bird #2 this year.

Erving vs Moses. Again crazy one of these years has to go 4th. I'll give it to Moses for both taking his team farther in the playoffs and for being a minutes horse. 40mpg in the reg. season, 45 in the post season compared to 35 and 37 for Erving. That minutes gap was probably the difference in their playoff success considering the Rockets got by LA and San Antonio by a 3 and 5 points in Game 7s on the road and the Sixers lost their last 3 games against Boston by 2, 2, and 1 points (ouch!)

5th spot I'll go with Gervin. 27ppg is a clear superstar scorer and the Spurs were pretty succesful this year, they won 52 games and lost in a tight 7 to Houston just like LA, and that series was more or less the WCF. I wonder if Gervin's career would get more credit if the Spurs made the finals this year? It was in their grasp. Once again a weird inability to win home playoff games while winning on the road did them in. Lost Games 1, 5 and 7 at home and won Games 4 and 6 on the road. This definitely has to be one of the Gervin Spurs more heartbreaking playoff exits. The red sea opened and only two 40-42 teams stood in their way in the Western Conference and they just came short.

And on that note it's weird seeing the Kansas City Kings in the WCF. I don't even know what their jersey/logo looks like. And two 40-42 teams in the WCF = LOL. I suppose Otis Birdsong deserves a mention for that team, he put up 25ppg in the regular season and led them to the WCF. That's a real good year for a guy I'd never heard of before. Apparantley made 4 all-star teams too. Anybody want to tell me what style of game he played?

HM to the Phoenix Suns, finished 1st in the West with 57 wins with Truck Robinson, Dennis Johnson, Walter Davis, Alvin Adams as their main guys. Like the Spurs, has to be disappointing to lose to a 40 win team after the Lakers' bounce left the door open

Ranking:

1. Kareem
2. Bird
3. Moses
4. Erving
5. Gervin

I'm sorry, but losing in round 1 with HCA and to a team below .500 does not merit a #1 ranking. How in the world can you justify that?

[lorak]

Wasn't a sweep. 2-1 Rockets in a best of 3, and Houston won the deciding game by 3 points. I'd definitely like to get more details on it though. In retrospect though LA losing 2 home games to a 40 win team does look almost as bad a sweep.

Damn, forgot it was a best of 3... hehe. All the games were close too.

Yeh, they were close and at the end of G1, when Lakers were down 2 pts, Bill Willoughby (6-8 center) blocked KAJ's sky hook.

[ElGee]

I'm sorry, but losing in round 1 with HCA and to a team below .500 does not merit a #1 ranking. How in the world can you justify that?

JB, what does that have to do with how well Kareem played? Are the Lakers allowed to lose a game in the playoffs? 2?

[JordansBulls]

I'm sorry, but losing in round 1 with HCA and to a team below .500 does not merit a #1 ranking. How in the world can you justify that?

JB, what does that have to do with how well Kareem played? Are the Lakers allowed to lose a game in the playoffs? 2?

Yes, but not the series to a team below .500.

[Gongxi]

Ughhh.

[ElGee]

I'm sorry, but losing in round 1 with HCA and to a team below .500 does not merit a #1 ranking. How in the world can you justify that?

JB, what does that have to do with how well Kareem played? Are the Lakers allowed to lose a game in the playoffs? 2?

Yes, but not the series to a team below .500.

Why not? They lost 2 games, both at the wire...I've never seen you adjust your vote before because someone lost 2 close playoff games.

[JordansBulls]

Why not? They lost 2 games, both at the wire...I've never seen you adjust your vote before because someone lost 2 close playoff games.

How many guys lost in round 1 to teams below .500?

It's not about losing close games it is the fact the team they lost to.

[Sedale Threatt]

1. Malone. Looks pretty identical to what he did in 82 and 83 to me, plus he led a mediocre Rockets team past the defending champs and into the Finals. Fairly easy choice in my mind.

2. Kareem. As others have noted, probably his last all-around dominant season. Don't really blame him for the Rockets loss; he shot poorly, but it looks like he performed admirably otherwise. As previously noted, it just wasn't L.A.'s year.

3. Bird. Outstanding RS -- even leading the league in defensive win shares, whatever those are, and however they calculate them -- and managed to step it up in the playoffs. As noted, Herculean on the boards to complement his typical scoring and passing brilliance.

4. Erving. Great, but not as great as great as Bird. At ronnymac's prompting, I looked up the numbers between the two in their series. Bird scores the technical knockout with 27 points, 13 rebounds and nearly eight assists per game compared to 20, 6 and 4 for the good Doctor. Big age difference at that point, but no excuses -- Bird was better.

5. Johnson. Not really feeling this choice all that much, but I'll take a great all-around performer over a one-dimensional gunner like Gervin, great as he was, any day.

[Optimism Prime]

Why not? They lost 2 games, both at the wire...I've never seen you adjust your vote before because someone lost 2 close playoff games.

How many guys lost in round 1 to teams below .500?

It's not about losing close games it is the fact the team they lost to.

A team that ended up in the Finals.

There's a term for this: "Mitigating factors." Learn it, love it.

[Sedale Threatt]

And that is why you can't use some rote formula.

[Dr Positivity]

4. Erving. Great, but not as great as great as Bird. At ronnymac's prompting, I looked up the numbers between the two in their series. Bird scores the technical knockout with 27 points, 13 rebounds and nearly eight assists per game compared to 20, 6 and 4 for the good Doctor. Big age difference at that point, but no excuses -- Bird was better.

Wow I didn't know Bird was that dominant in the ECF. I might put him at #1 after all

[ElGee]

Why not? They lost 2 games, both at the wire...I've never seen you adjust your vote before because someone lost 2 close playoff games.

How many guys lost in round 1 to teams below .500?

It's not about losing close games it is the fact the team they lost to.

(1) You didn't answer my question (feel free to ).

(2) So what happens if I find an example of your No. 1 or 2 (or someone you didn't claim to drop) losing 2 playoff games to a comparable team SRS/record wise?

[Sedale Threatt]

Look no further than this year. Dr. J's team blew a 3-1 lead, and he was pretty soundly outplayed by his matchup in the series, yet he's No. 1. Ahh, but the caveat -- Philly did not have home court. It's all about this silly little standard.

[shawngoat23]

Thanks for the info on Bird, guys, especially Sedale Threatt. I bumped him up to #1 now that I think about it (outplayed my other two top 3 guys).

[Sedale Threatt]

ronnymac pointed that book out. I have it too, but I never would have looked through it had I not read his post.

[penbeast0]

And on that note it's weird seeing the Kansas City Kings in the WCF. I don't even know what their jersey/logo looks like. And two 40-42 teams in the WCF = LOL. I suppose Otis Birdsong deserves a mention for that team, he put up 25ppg in the regular season and led them to the WCF. That's a real good year for a guy I'd never heard of before. Apparantley made 4 all-star teams too. Anybody want to tell me what style of game he played?

Otis was a big guard, pure jump shooter, supposed to be a nice guy if not real mature. He was quoted once as saying that the only sure things in life were death, taxes, and his jump shot. Not great defense but not terrible; for some reason not a very good free throw shooter. When he got traded to NJ, he got fat and out of shape, to the point where he got nicknamed "Mrs. Butterworth" and basically never got it back together.

[penbeast0]

Again, let me start by looking at the top teams. There were three top teams in the league, all in the east – Boston, Philly, and Milwaukee. The best team in the West was Phoenix, LA wasn’t that great though still very good as were San Antonio and the Knicks. No one else was even a .550 team though Moses’s run in the playoffs should get him into the discussion.

Boston – Bird was the heart of the Boston team though his PER was under 20 (Parish had a monster PER year at 25.2, not sure how). Maxwell was a high percentage low post scorer who drew fouls welll – pretty much his entire career. Bird’s PER went up to 21.8 in the playoffs while Parish and Maxwell were under 20 – again, not the obvious conclusion but it does make Bird the choice from Boston.

Philly – Philly was Doc’s team more than Boston was Bird’s as Philly’s second best player was Bobby Jones. He stayed at a high level in the playoffs though a bit under his regular season and took Boston to 7 games in the ECF after beating Milwaukee in another 7 gamer.

Milwaukee – Marques Johnson was the team’s leading scorer though Moncrief was playing full time; they were more known for their deep depth and Don Nelson’s zone (or as he called it “switching man to man”) defense than for Marques carrying the team.

Phoenix – Phoenix was another deep balanced team led offensively by Alvin Adams and defensively by Dennis Johnson. No real MVP candidates, had three players average 18ppg but no one average 20 points, 10 rebounds, or 5 assists even.

LA Lakers – Magic missed a lot of the year but with 20ppg scorer Jamaal Wilkes, 17pt/9ast Norm Nixon, Michael Cooper etc. there was no lack of talent around Kareem. Kareem had a typical great 70s Kareem year – 26/10/3 with All-Def mentions and yet the team only won 54 games and lost in the first round.

San Antonio – Gervin’s team. 27ppg with the only other scorer on the team being James Silas at PG (front line was George Johnson, Mark Olberding, Reggie Johnson – sheesh) and yet they had nearly the same record as the Lakers with all that talent.

NY Knicks – deserve some mention as the league’s other 50 win team (no one else got more than 45). Bill Cartwright was their leading scorer at 20ppg though a weak rebounder (and Jordan said he couldn’t do anything with the ball if you gave it to him, lol) and they had a talented backcourt of Michael Ray Richardson and Ray Williams but again, no MVP candidates really.

Houston and KC – the Western Conference Finalists (and this year was one of the reasons they changed to a best of 7 first round rather than a best of 5). Both under .500 teams. Houston was Moses’s team; below average defensive team which hurts him a bit and the West they came out of was very weak outside the Lakers. KC had an identical record with their best player being Birdsong, as mentioned. They did upset Phoenix in their 2nd round.

That said, overall I have to give it to:

1. Larry Bird – the main man on the winning team and no one else really stepped up and took it away from him.
2. Julius Erving – pretty much 1A and 1B with Bird
3. Moses – well below the top 2 though
4. Gervin – did as much with a lot less help than Kareem despite Kareem’s numbers
5. Kareem – still hard to argue with the most talented player of his generation