Retro POY '80-81 (Voting Complete)

[ElGee]

Just watched first half of G2 between Philly and Boston. Bird with a mildly ridiculous first half (Celtics blew the game open): 23 points 10 rebounds 4 assists. 10-11 FG. 3-3 FT. The old 93% TS half.

Erving, or as Bob Cousy likes to call him, "J," struggled going 2-7. Cooz also goes crazy on 2 of Bird's assists (slick passes to cutters for layups) and on a Bird alley-oop ("Lawwy wealized he had it to shoot while in the aaaaiih!").

Most of the series is up on youtube thanks to tjhunt...

[Jordan23Forever]

Lawwy wealized he had it to shoot while in the aaaaiih!").

LOL Great impression of Cousy...

[ronnymac2]

Haven't studied the finals too much. Won't vote until I do.

About that ECFs......this is from Kalb's book, from my own memory of watching game 7, and of some of the articles ElGee posted regarding the series.

Bird was a second year player who's team lost to Erving's Sixers last year in five games in a playoff series. This year, Erving, 31, was the MVP of the league. Both teams were very good, going 62-20. Boston had HCA.

Game 1: Bird drops 33/10/3 on 14/29 in a loss. Erving shoots 8/20 for 25 points. Toney kills Boston with 26 (as a rookie!). His free throws won the game at the end.

Game 2: Boston blows Philly out. Bird puts up 34/16/5 on 14/21 shooting. Erving doesn't score in first 17 minutes of the game.


Ming you....throughout this series, Erving is being guarded by rookie Mchale and Maxwell, with Parish inside and Bird helping out. Bird is being guarded by Bobby Jones and Caldwell Jones with Dawkins inside and Erving helping. That's pretty even defense played on the other.

These are very even teams actually. Even old Archibald vs. young Cheeks is a good matchup.


Game 3: Very fast-paced game. Erving actually was the player guarding Larry in this game for the most part. Caldwell shut down Parish since he didn't need to d up on Bird. Bird put up 22/13/4 on 8/16 shooting to Erving's 22/7/7 on 9/21 shooting. Erving played good defense.


Game 4: Sixers win a close one as Bobby Jones makes a game-saving defensive play. Bird put up 18/17/6 on 7/19 shooting. Erving dropped 20/7/5 with 5 blocks on 8/16 shooting.

Philly up 3-1 heading back to Boston.

Game 5: Hollins and Archibald drop 23 each. Boston hits 35/39 free throws to Philly's 33/39 in their two point victory. Bird put up 32/11/5 on 11/24 shooting and 8/8 on free throws. Erving put in 21/2/5 on 9/18 shooting and 3/4 on free throws.

Game 6 in Philly: Philly had a huge lead in their yard and lost it. Parish and Archibald step up. Bird has 25/16/4 on 10/22 shooting. Erving has 16/6/4 on 5/17 shooting.

Game 7 in Boston: Philly had an 11 point lead in the second half. Philly had trouble in the halfcourt, especially at the end of the game when they didn't score a field goal in the last 4:34. Things got very physical in the second half, and Boston looked more like the aggressors. Bird about the last five minutes of the game: It was an all-out war. I've never been through anything so brutal."

Boston won 91-90.

Bird: 23/11/5 with 5 steals and 1 turnover. 9/12 shooting and 6/7 on free throws.
Erving: 23/8/5 with 6 turnovers and 5 fouls. 11/21 shooting and 1/2 on free throws.

For the series, Bird put up 26.7/13.4/7.8.
Erving put up 19.9/5.9/4.1.

That game 7 is on youtube btw. IIRC, Bird feasted on the offensive glass in the first half and hit the game-winning shot- a banker. He made a number of clutch defensive plays down the stretch as well.

[tkb]

1. Larry Bird
2. Moses Malone
3. Julius Erving
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. George Gervin

[ElGee]

2:30. Ron Artest, Part 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiQBxrPc ... h_response

[Gongxi]

Thinking it'll be Dr. J, Moses, Cap, Bird, and Dantley, but we'll see. Real voting either tonight or tomorrow morning.

[Dr Positivity]

Won't make my list, but just a note - I never realized how lauded Dennis Johnson was this year. 1st team All-NBA, 8th in MVP voting, despite statistically appearing very mediocore.

[ElGee]

^^^Dr. J played fairly poorly for the entire Celtics series. Toney (80 points in first 86 minutes of series) and Dawkins were better for Philadelphia. Erving shot something like 40% for the series as well. By most accounts he was better in 82 than in 81 (statistically in RS and playoffs, defensively, anecdotally). Not sure how that affects your list, but just food for thought...

[ElGee]

Haven't studied the finals too much. Won't vote until I do.

About that ECFs......this is from Kalb's book, from my own memory of watching game 7, and of some of the articles ElGee posted regarding the series.

Bird was a second year player who's team lost to Erving's Sixers last year in five games in a playoff series. This year, Erving, 31, was the MVP of the league. Both teams were very good, going 62-20. Boston had HCA.

Game 1: Bird drops 33/10/3 on 14/29 in a loss. Erving shoots 8/20 for 25 points. Toney kills Boston with 26 (as a rookie!). His free throws won the game at the end.

Game 2: Boston blows Philly out. Bird puts up 34/16/5 on 14/21 shooting. Erving doesn't score in first 17 minutes of the game.


Ming you....throughout this series, Erving is being guarded by rookie Mchale and Maxwell, with Parish inside and Bird helping out. Bird is being guarded by Bobby Jones and Caldwell Jones with Dawkins inside and Erving helping. That's pretty even defense played on the other.

These are very even teams actually. Even old Archibald vs. young Cheeks is a good matchup.


Game 3: Very fast-paced game. Erving actually was the player guarding Larry in this game for the most part. Caldwell shut down Parish since he didn't need to d up on Bird. Bird put up 22/13/4 on 8/16 shooting to Erving's 22/7/7 on 9/21 shooting. Erving played good defense.


Game 4: Sixers win a close one as Bobby Jones makes a game-saving defensive play. Bird put up 18/17/6 on 7/19 shooting. Erving dropped 20/7/5 with 5 blocks on 8/16 shooting.

Philly up 3-1 heading back to Boston.

Game 5: Hollins and Archibald drop 23 each. Boston hits 35/39 free throws to Philly's 33/39 in their two point victory. Bird put up 32/11/5 on 11/24 shooting and 8/8 on free throws. Erving put in 21/2/5 on 9/18 shooting and 3/4 on free throws.

Game 6 in Philly: Philly had a huge lead in their yard and lost it. Parish and Archibald step up. Bird has 25/16/4 on 10/22 shooting. Erving has 16/6/4 on 5/17 shooting.

Game 7 in Boston: Philly had an 11 point lead in the second half. Philly had trouble in the halfcourt, especially at the end of the game when they didn't score a field goal in the last 4:34. Things got very physical in the second half, and Boston looked more like the aggressors. Bird about the last five minutes of the game: It was an all-out war. I've never been through anything so brutal."

Boston won 91-90.

Bird: 23/11/5 with 5 steals and 1 turnover. 9/12 shooting and 6/7 on free throws.
Erving: 23/8/5 with 6 turnovers and 5 fouls. 11/21 shooting and 1/2 on free throws.

For the series, Bird put up 26.7/13.4/7.8.
Erving put up 19.9/5.9/4.1.

That game 7 is on youtube btw. IIRC, Bird feasted on the offensive glass in the first half and hit the game-winning shot- a banker. He made a number of clutch defensive plays down the stretch as well.

Some notes on the series as well (G5-7 highly recommended):

Erving scored 12 points in game 2 on 5-14 shooting. That means, according to Kalb's numbers, Erving shot 43% for the series.

Bird's Game 7 was an all-timer. Dude had 4 steals and 3 blocks (Kalb says 5 but good luck finding 5 -- score-keeping errors were rife in those days). Speaking of errors, he was most certainly NOT 9-12 in the final game, but 8-16. He hit a key 3 in the second half, which was the first Boston 3-pointer of the playoffs! Bird does indeed make the winning banker with just over a minute left, after making a key defensive play. It's a monster game on both ends.

One more interesting note about that series, besides Maxwell going into the stands and nothing happening (the fan was ejected, then ceremoniously re-admitted): Tiny Archibald shot all the technical fouls for Boston. This, despite Bird shooting 96% from the line up until that point in the playoffs and playing nearly every minute of every game (averaged 44 mpg in the playoffs). Oh, the 80s.

Still not sure where to put Bird in my top 3. Understand the No. 1 votes but he's definitely not the complete player he would be in the ensuing years. Boston runs little offense through him. He definitely is getting a few Magic-type assists that just no one else can make, often to cutters for layups or on these freakish outlet passes (made basket, Bird catches, inbounds it 80 feet like Manning to Harrison for a streaking layup). Obviously he's boarding better than he would in the following years.

Kevin Loughery said something interesting: "Larry Bird doesn't like to play one on one. He prefers to score in the flow of the offense." That's certainly evident watching him play in 1981. Going to think about this more...

[ronnymac2]

^^^Damn it, Kalb.......

That is what I noticed about Bird's game, too. I used to think Bird circa 86 was the best off-ball player of the GOAT/top-10 players who were deadly scorers. I may have been wrong, as it really might be the early version of Bird. He really hits the offensive glass hard.

I kind of don't like how Bird didn't go one vs. one as much as he could have. It worked this season though, so I can't complain.

I'm really liking Larry this season. He put up great stats in the playoffs and outplayed prime Dr. J in one of the greatest series in history. The finals was one of those slug it out affairs, similar to the 05 finals and 94 finals. The games seem to be the games where every point REALLY counts. It isn't like those high-scoring games where a six minute stretch in the second quarter of trading baskets feels meaningless. Timing of scoring is more important in these slugfests. I'm not going to hit Moses and Bird too hard for their decent-at-best field goal percentages.

I just want to give a shout-out to Parish, one of the most underrated players on the pc board. He was the guy who had to go toe-to-toe with Moses Malone, Jabbar, Laimbeer, and Olajuwon throughout the 80's. He faced Peak Moses this year and performed as well as you can expect. He sacrificed his body and his stats to make sure Moses didn't annhilate Boston.

Moses vs. Julius. They are equals as players this year, but Malone wins the tiebreakers, even with Julius's MVP.

Bird has to be over Julius, too. KAJ vs. Moses is really tough for me this year. I'm inclined to give it to Jabbar. He basically played him as an equal individually. Malone had the big 38-23 and hit his jumper, but Jabbar averaged a lot of rebounds in those three games against Malone. Jabbar always got the shots he wanted against Moses, which is why I always thought that Moses "handling" KAJ was just a myth. He only handled him on the glass in the 83 finals.

I'll give it to Jabbar. He was more highly regarded in the REG SEA, which makes up for Malone's finals run.

Bird vs. Malone? Ahh, Bird was too damn good this year. Clutch in every big series, won the title, his playoff stats didn't take a drop like in other seasons we've done, and his REG SEA was very good. His individual play was the impetus for a champion. His predominantly off-ball play is actually similar to Moses.

Bird vs. KAJ. I think Kareem was the better player at this point. Did Bird do enough ito tie-breakers to get an edge? I don't think he did.

My fifth spot? Tempted to put Maxwell. Not because of the finals MVP, but because he fought a fan in the NBA finals and got away with it. He's clearly insane/funny.

I think it's Gervin vs. Johnson. I've learned a lot about Johnson's game and like his game a lot. I don't know though. He was a bit injured during the series with Philly, especially in games five and six. Showed up for game seven though and went up against Dr. J and stood his ground. That's impressive. Gervin had a good series against Houston, averaging 27 ppg.

Marques is clearly a more complete player, while Gervin is the better scorer. This is Marques's peak year and George didn't do anything crazy this year, so putting Marques ahead isn't irrational. I'll go with him.

Kareem
Bird
Moses
Erving
Marques Johnson

HM: George Gervin, Dennis Johnson, Dantley (he DID put up nice stats)

[ThaRegul8r]

Jabbar always got the shots he wanted against Moses, which is why I always thought that Moses "handling" KAJ was just a myth. He only handled him on the glass in the 83 finals.

Yeah, he destroyed Jabbar on the boards in '83, but he didn't affect Jabbar's offense at all.

[drza]

Terribly difficult year, where arguments could be made for any of the top 4. Bird didn't have the regular season stats that he eventually would, but played well in the playoffs and won the chip. Doc was the MVP with great regular season stats and was the man on a team that took the eventual champs to 7 games after winning another war against another contender/great SF combo. Kareem with his last dominant year, and though his team got upset in the playoffs the best-of-3 format gives me pause. And Mo, who was in the midst of his dominant spell and led his team to the Finals on the back of the 2-for-1 first round win over the Lakers.

I keep changing my mind on this. I've flip-flopped J and Bird several times, and done the same with Mo and Kareem as well. Here's where I am now:

1) Larry Bird. When I started typing I really expected Dr. J here, and maybe I change my mind, but right now I'm having a hard time getting past Bird's huge effort in their series. J was better in the season, and Bird didn't even win Finals MVP (caveat, before my time so I don't know if it's one of those Parker over Duncan/Pierce over Garnett decisions that I can understand but don't agree with) so it's not like he was just epic in the postseason either...but he won head-to-head against the person I'd have ahead of him, so for now...tentatively have Bird here.

2) Julius Erving. Great season, the MVP, went through 2 wars against arguably the other 2 best teams and other 2 best SFs in the league during the playoffs, and played well. Lost a close series to the Celtics in the postseason, which I'd be inclined to forgive because as someone pointed out, J was more "the Man" for the Sixers than Bird was for the Celtics...only as individuals Bird seemingly outplayed him as well, which hurts that argument. I could still see J over Bird, though, based on his better season overall. I'm stuck, and in the end I probably have J at 2 right now because in my heart J at 1 would feel a bit like a homer pick at the moment.

3) Kareem. Like J and Bird, Kareem was better than Mo for the year but his team lost a squeaker to Mo's team in the postseason. Unlike J, though, Kareem was just as monstrous as his rival in their postseason matchup so does not lose his spot in the rankings.

4) Mo Malone. Could have been 1st place in many seasons.

5) Marques Johnson (essentially a toss-up between he and Gervin)

[TrueLAfan]

I am struggling with the Moses/Dr. J decision, although I'm very comfortable with my #1, 2 and 5 choices. I've been looking over my Complete Handbook of Pro Basketball for 1982, and it's reminded me of a few things. The player comments, written between the 1981 postseason and the 1982 preseason, are terrific...you get a sense of at-the-moment beliefs. Here are some selected ones:

Julius Erving: “Another magnificent effort wasted ... Averaged 24.7 in seven game playoff against Milwaukee and 19.9 against Boston, when he finally wore down chasing Larry Bird ... Will be 32 before playoffs start again and must be wondering if he'll ever collect an NBA championship ring to go with his MVP trophy ... decision to have him face guard Bird for the final five games of Celtics' series cost him some offensive effectiveness, but he accepted the task without question.”

Moses Malone: “A lot of people thought he should have been the league's MVP last season. He was the No. 1 rebounder and No. 2 scorer ... Possesses an overabundance of talent, but there will always be the nagging question marks: he is quite average as a defensive rebounder, he is annually in the top five in turnovers, he does not run plays well, he's average in catching and passing the ball ... With all of those negatives however, he still may be the league's best, because of his overwhelming enthusiasm for the game and his dominance of the categories he does well, offensive rebounding and scoring.”

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: “Get ready for the avalanche of criticisms to begin anew. The Lakers didn't win it all, and that means You-Know-Who will be a 7-foot-2 target ... In the embarrassing pratfall to Houston in the mini-series, though, he was above reproach, averaging 27 and 16.7 rebounds ... Considering his skyscraper physique, Kareem is not a particularly dominating rebounder ... The towering presence around the basket of the 7-2 Abdul-Jabbar insures that every point the opposition gets will be earned. When he is on the court, the other guys normally concentrate exclusively on jump shots.”

Larry Bird: “Belongs in a higher league ... Absolutely the best all-around player in the universe .. Simply takes over in the closing minutes of close games ... Has that rare quality that Bill Russell possessed of making all his teammates better players.”

Marques Johnson: “Anyone who watched him against Julius Erving in that monumental playoff series with the 76ers must put him on a pedestal ... His scoring average is declining because the Bucks have a more balanced attack these days, but he's still the one they go to in the clutch.”

George Gervin: “Worked hard to improve his all around game last year and his assist total (260) was the second highest of his career." On Defense: "Here's the potential pitfall.”

Dennis Johnson: “A superbly talented gentlemen, but prone to enormously varied mood changes ... When the mood's sour, as it was his last year in Seattle, it can spoil an entire barrel of players. When it's sunny, he can single handedly inspire a team to pay far above its level.”

I just want to say how much I still love these books. They're candid and, often, funny (Kevin McHale: “His waist seems to start above his often beer-filled stomach”) and unafraid to criticize (Bobby Dandridge: “Exceeding his best performance, the mysterious Mr DNP put together a string of 55 consecutive games missed ... Always had the ability but lacked the desire and, regretfully, a brilliant career has been tarnished.” Ouch!). I don't always agree with what is said, but it's astute and supported...and, most importantly, the books show what people thought at the time.

[Sedale Threatt]

Cool stuff. I had a bunch of Sporting News preview annuals from the 80s that I wish I'd kept. I wore those things to tatters.

[Doctor MJ]

Very cool stuff TrueLA.

[mysticbb]

Stats for that season (playoff games count 3 times as much as regular season games):

Code: Select all

Rk Player               PER  WS   ON   SUM
1  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  25.1 14.5  5.0 44.6
2  Moses Malone         23.8 17.1  2.2 43.1
3  Marques Johnson      23.4 13.2  6.2 42.7
4  Larry Bird           20.7 15.0  6.0 41.6
5  Julius Erving        23.4 13.6  4.4 41.4
6  Robert Parish        22.7 11.2  4.3 38.3
7  Cedric Maxwell       18.1 13.7  6.1 38.0
8  Artis Gilmore        21.5 13.2  3.2 37.9
9  George Gervin        22.3 10.9  1.9 35.0
10 Bobby Jones          19.9 10.5  3.8 34.2
11 Bob Lanier           20.5  8.2  3.9 32.6
12 Sidney Moncrief      16.6  9.8  4.8 31.2
13 Reggie Theus         18.4  9.9  1.9 30.3
14 Alvan Adams          18.3  7.9  3.1 29.3
15 Billy Knight         19.5  8.3  1.4 29.2
16 Reggie King          17.7 10.9  0.6 29.2
17 Otis Birdsong        20.0  8.1  0.7 28.7
18 Dave Greenwood       17.2  8.1  1.4 26.7
19 Tiny Archibald       13.9  8.0  3.9 25.8
20 Ray Williams         18.4  6.9  0.5 25.8


The difference isn't big between the top players in terms of stats. Quite interesting to see Marques Johnson right at the top. Reading through some of the posts and trying to find some highlight videos (and watching those) from a couple of games gives me a somewhat educated guess which players are the Top 5. I have to be honest I don't know much about that era in terms of the year by year basis, I know the best players very well, how they played and so on, but I can't recall specific games or so for specific seasons. Thus I will not try to argue against more educated posters here. Anyway, I still made up my mind for that season (at least way less guessing than the previous seasons) and came to the conclusion, that Bird should be ahead of everyone else. It is not a big gap. Behind him I feel comfortable with Moses Malone and Julius Erving, then Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. The fifth place goes to Marques Johnson.

Vote:

1. Larry Bird
2. Moses Malone
3. Julius Erving
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Marques Johnson

[Optimism Prime]

1. Larry Bird
2. Moses Malone
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Julius Erving
5. George Gervin

[CellarDoor]

Julius
Bird
Moses
Kareem
Gervin

[Sedale Threatt]

I'm curious as to what Moses did or didn't do to be ranked outside of the top two, at the very least.

[Doctor MJ]

The arguments for Bird are resonating with me. Had planned to vote Moses #1, not really not sure.

I don't get Moses below Julius though. I'm a big Dr. J fan, and he certainly had a more well rounded game than Moses in general, but Erving just isn't nearly as dominant of a player at his stage in his career.