Are you over the tax? (Chuck Hayes trade)

demens · Post #1 » by **demens** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:50 pm

With Scolas, Lowry and Brad Miller, i'm pretty sure you should be significantly over.

Yao, Scola, Miller, Patterson, Hayes, Hill, Anderson. Even with Yao being a questionmark, do you really need that many big men? Especially since they all cost you double.

So how much value does Chuck Hayes have?

$4.6M for him to sit on the bench Or a 2nd round pick?

EDIT: Forgot Jordan Hill, holy crap.

Post #2 » by **dream34** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:02 pm

It doesn't hurt to have an extra big man on the roster in case Yao goes down.

And I'm pretty sure we are stockpiling a few assets to trade up, but I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a trade where Hayes or Andersen is traded to save some money, if they aren't being used.

I also think Hayes has a higher role in the roster than people assume, and we are not looking to dump him and his bargain contract.

demens · Post #3 » by **demens** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:14 pm

dream34 wrote:It doesn't hurt to have an extra big man on the roster in case Yao goes down.

And I'm pretty sure we are stockpiling a few assets to trade up, but I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a trade where Hayes or Andersen is traded to save some money, if they aren't being used.

I also think Hayes has a higher role in the roster than people assume, and we are not looking to dump him and his bargain contract.

Hey, i'm not trying to knock him. But you have SEVEN big guys on the roster. Thats plenty of insurance for Yao imo. 3 of them clearly better and in line for more minutes then Hayes. And 2 young guys with the potential and if i was the coach i'd give minutes to.

I'm a Nets fan looking for a temp starter at PF. Def. not interested in Andersen. I do value Hayes, i understand the type of player he is but considering how much depth you have and the fact that he's costing you double and possibly not even playing, i dont imagine him costing much more then a 2nd rounder.

If you want more, i think i would be willing to offer lets says a 2nd rounder and Zoubek (500k) for Hayes and Anderson. Thats saving you $9 Million. Actually i think that might be a bit too much, i'd want some cash from your end or maybe forget the 2nd rounder.

Aaron Brooks · Post #4 » by **Aaron Brooks** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:15 pm

Chuck Hayes is worth more than a 2nd rounder to us but I don't expect other GMs to offer more for his services. Hes an intangibles guy, I remember when we got Adelman, all the fans were saying Hayes was a goner yet here we are 3 season's later.

demens · Post #5 » by **demens** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:22 pm

Jeffries too. Did he play SF for you guys or PF?

And it looks like you could use a limited min. SG. How about Ross. Dont mean to offend anyone if you're thinking i'm just trying to stick you with trash from the Nets roster, we have no intention of playing him, but i do think he can get around 10 min. of PT with you. maybe. Just saying if i'm taking back Andersen (2.5) you can take him (1.2), but again, only way i have any interest in Andersen is if Hayes is with him.

rocketsballin · Post #6 » by **rocketsballin** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:25 pm

hayes has a lot of value on this team. most teams cant use him to his full potential like we do, so it'd be hard to trade for him w/o sending out too much. plus he's in his prime, a good defensive big in his prime shouldnt be taken lightly. we should resign him for 5 years.

also he's not the last big to get minutes. he's ahead of andersen, jj, and hill/patterson or both (till they prove to be worthy). i doubt any team trades for him, he's a rocket for life

Aaron Brooks · Post #7 » by **Aaron Brooks** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:28 pm

demens wrote:Jeffries too. Did he play SF for you guys or PF?

And it looks like you could use a limited min. SG. How about Ross. Dont mean to offend anyone if you're thinking i'm just trying to stick you with trash from the Nets roster, we have no intention of playing him, but i do think he can get around 10 min. of PT with you. maybe. Just saying if i'm taking back Andersen (2.5) you can take him (1.2), but again, only way i have any interest in Andersen is if Hayes is with him.

Andersen, Patterson and Jeffries are the odd men out

I think we can trade Andersen for a TPE, big men that can space the floor has some value in the league (look at Frye), and Jeffries led the league in charges drawn so that has to count for something right?

demens · Post #8 » by **demens** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:38 pm

Aaron Brooks wrote:Andersen, Patterson and Jeffries are the odd men out

I think we can trade Andersen for a TPE, big men that can space the floor has some value in the league (look at Frye), and Jeffries led the league in charges drawn so that has to count for something right?

Hayes big would be much easier to trade then Jeffries. You could trade Andersen too, but you'd still be over the cap paying double for Hayes who may or may not be playing depending on Yao and the kids (Hill/Patt).

What is your cap exactly?

I got you at $60M before Scola, Miller and Lowry. Scolas deal should start around 7, Miller around 4 and Lowry around 4. So you're close to $5M over. Clearing out Jeffries might be enough but its close.

Post #9 » by **Mr. E** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:43 pm

demens, here's a few things you need to understand about this team and it's current direction:

Before the offseason began, our GM, Daryl Morey, stated that our owner, Les Alexander, was willing to match any offer that our Restricted Free Agents would receive; knowing that it would put the Rockets well over the Luxury Tax. He also stated that the Rockets would use the full MLE, knowing that the entire ammount would fall into the Luxury Tax area.

In short: trying to appeal to the Rockets from a "we'll do you a favor and help you get under the cap" direction is already dead on arrival.

No one in this league values Chuck Hayes more than the Rockets. The Rockets do not care about the Lux Tax. If you are going to try to pry the Truck from Houston then you're going to have to pony up something that would be considered "overpaying" to "ridiculous."

x- · Post #10 » by x- » Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:47 pm

Mr. Alexander (Rockets owner) doesn't care about paying the luxary tax if he's in a position to win. He'll pay guys that help the Rockets win games. Chuck Hayes is one of those guys. He won't be traded for a second rounder or cap relief.

demens · Post #11 » by **demens** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:53 pm

You know your team better, no arugement from me. But no matter how willing any owner is to pay the tax, i'm sure they would prefer not to. Especially since we're talking about a guy who isn't an essential part of the team. I know you value him, and i know he brings a lot more then stats, but bottom line there is a chance he might not get minutes over some of the guys you have on the roster. So an offer to save some money by giving up a guy you might not use should not be dead on arrival by a long shot. Now if you think there is no question Hayes is getting minutes over Patt and Jordan then ok, or if a trade goes down to clear those guys out then its a different story. But until then, i don think this is that bad of an idea.

Post #12 » by **Mr. E** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:57 pm

I can respect your opinion; but you're pretty much completely wrong on this.

Hayes will definitely get more playing time this season over Patterson & Hill. He has not suddenly become a non-essential part of the roster.

x- · Post #13 » by x- » Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:17 pm

You have to look at it differently. Morey values assets. Right now the Rockets have 17 guys on their roster. Mike Harris & Alexander Johnson will be cut, which will make it a 15 man roster:

Yao Miller Hayes Andersen
Scola Hill Patterson Jeffries
Ariza Battier
Martin Budinger Taylor
Brooks Lowry

Out of those 15 minutes, 13 are guys I'd like to see play. (Actually 12, since I don't like the Brad Miller signing). You could argue that 15 all are rotation players, at least on a bad team.

Morey will go after a go-to guy, probably a 3. Melo, Granger, Iguodala.

Iguodala isn't bad (his contract is), but my fear is that Morey will have to settle for him, since but Granger and Melo are the faces of their respective franchinse and close to 'untouchable'. Even with all those assets Morey has it might take Melo or Granger to demand a trade to get them to Houston.
That said and to get to my point, if such a trade would go down, the Rockets would likely send out at least 2 players more than they'll get in return. Most likely to go: Jeffires (exp), Ariza or Battier (exp), Andersen (exp/TO), either Hill or Patterson and possibly Taylor.
That's why Hayes won't be traded for nothing. He'll be needed. He's a value piece for the Rockets, short and longterm, no matter how deep the team seems to be right now.

As for if the Rockets have use for a 2 guard, no. Budinger will play backup Martin, Taylor might see some minutes and Adelman likes to play Brooks and Lowry together, which makes the 2 spot a logjam, just like every other position.

M4P · Post #14 » by **M4P** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:21 pm

demens wrote:You know your team better, no arugement from me. But no matter how willing any owner is to pay the tax, i'm sure they would prefer not to. Especially since we're talking about a guy who isn't an essential part of the team. I know you value him, and i know he brings a lot more then stats, but bottom line there is a chance he might not get minutes over some of the guys you have on the roster. So an offer to save some money by giving up a guy you might not use should not be dead on arrival by a long shot. Now if you think there is no question Hayes is getting minutes over Patt and Jordan then ok, or if a trade goes down to clear those guys out then its a different story. But until then, i don think this is that bad of an idea.

You do know that the Rockets were the ones that picked up his team option right..? If they felt like Hayes couldn't contribute they could've easily declined his contract.

Also where are you getting your numbers? Hayes is going to make 2.3M this year. 2.3M for a lockdown defender that can guard the 3, 4, and 5 respectively is well worth the price.

aznkillabeezZz · Post #15 » by **aznkillabeezZz** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:39 pm

U can have Jefferies and Andersen for free as long as the nets take his contract. Just not chuck Hayes.

demens · Post #16 » by **demens** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:41 pm

Of course they picked up his option, he would have been long gone if they didn't. And that was before you got Brad Miller, so picking up his 2.3M 1 year deal doesn't say much. Not sure what issue you have with my numbers. The team is over the tax by more then 5M, his 2.3 = 4.6.

As for him getting minutes, you might be right, i just thought that since he played 20, the addition of Yao, Miller and Patterson would knock that down quite a bit.

Morey is one of the better GMs in the league, so i wouldn't doubt if he pulled off a trade for a 3 that included some of these guys. But a lot of people have been scratching their heads over some of the contracts he handed out this off-season, i wouldn't be too sure some of these assets are as valuable as it may seem, especially the overpaid ones.

Also, is Andersen really expiring? I see him listed as having a termination option which i sincerely doubt he would use. You list him as a team option.

aznkillabeezZz · Post #17 » by **aznkillabeezZz** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:50 pm

We only have 2 Centers. Yao and Brad Miller and Chuck hayes can be insurance if any of them get injured. Patterson is a PF so he'll back up Scola and Hill.

M4P · Post #18 » by **M4P** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:01 pm

demens wrote:Of course they picked up his option, he would have been long gone if they didn't. And that was before you got Brad Miller, so picking up his 2.3M 1 year deal doesn't say much. Not sure what issue you have with my numbers. The team is over the tax by more then 5M, his 2.3 = 4.6.

Do you honestly believe that we won't move any of our expirings to get below the tax? We have a total of ~18M expirings give or take not including Yao.

he would have been long gone if they didn't. And that was before you got Brad Miller, so picking up his 2.3M 1 year deal doesn't say much. Not sure what issue you have with my numbers. The team is over the tax by more then 5M, his 2.3 = 4.6.

Morey came into the offseason knowing that he was going to get a backup center. Why would he pick up Haye's option if he was going to end up dumping him? He could've easily have dumped him from the beginning. You think that he just got Miller by chance? If we didn't get Miller we would've most likely ended up with some other C with Hayes sticking around.

Morey is one of the better GMs in the league, so i wouldn't doubt if he pulled off a trade for a 3 that included some of these guys. But a lot of people have been scratching their heads over some of the contracts he handed out this off-season, i wouldn't be too sure some of these assets are as valuable as it may seem, especially the overpaid ones.

We're not sheep. Who the hell cares what others say? Do they follow the Rockets? They have no idea what we're doing.

Also, is Andersen really expiring? I see him listed as having a termination option which i sincerely doubt he would use. You list him as a team option.

He has an unguarenteed contract for 2011/2012... it's up to the FO to decide whether or not they want to pick it up.

demens · Post #19 » by **demens** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:13 pm

Morey4president wrote:
demens wrote:Of course they picked up his option, he would have been long gone if they didn't. And that was before you got Brad Miller, so picking up his 2.3M 1 year deal doesn't say much. Not sure what issue you have with my numbers. The team is over the tax by more then 5M, his 2.3 = 4.6.
Do you honestly believe that we won't move any of our expirings to get below the tax? We have a total of ~18M expirings give or take not including Yao.
he would have been long gone if they didn't. And that was before you got Brad Miller, so picking up his 2.3M 1 year deal doesn't say much. Not sure what issue you have with my numbers. The team is over the tax by more then 5M, his 2.3 = 4.6.
Morey came into the offseason knowing that he was going to get a backup center. Why would he pick up Haye's option if he was going to end up dumping him? He could've easily have dumped him from the beginning. You think that he just got Miller by chance? If we didn't get Miller we would've most likely ended up with some other C with Hayes sticking around.
Morey is one of the better GMs in the league, so i wouldn't doubt if he pulled off a trade for a 3 that included some of these guys. But a lot of people have been scratching their heads over some of the contracts he handed out this off-season, i wouldn't be too sure some of these assets are as valuable as it may seem, especially the overpaid ones.
We're not sheep. Who the hell cares what others say? Do they follow the Rockets? They have no idea what we're doing.
Also, is Andersen really expiring? I see him listed as having a termination option which i sincerely doubt he would use. You list him as a team option.
He has an unguarenteed contract for 2011/2012... it's up to the FO to decide whether or not they want to pick it up.

So which one is it. Your owner doesn't care about the tax or you'll be moving some of those 18M exp. to get under it? Either you're making moves to get under or you're not and if you are, Hayes could easily be one of the contracts thats moved.

Not sure where this cockyness is coming form. There were not too many good options at C when FA started, there are certainly not many left which might indicate why you gave Miller a deal a bit on the high side. So yeah, i think you got him by chance.

M4P · Post #20 » by **M4P** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:31 pm

So which one is it. Your owner doesn't care about the tax or you'll be moving some of those 18M exp. to get under it? Either you're making moves to get under or you're not and if you are, Hayes could easily be one of the contracts thats moved.

Haven't you been reading what we've been telling you? If it comes down to paying the tax than yes our owner would be willing to do that. Don't you think that it's common sense to explore other options before paying the tax though? We're not restricted to making one move.

You're the one that's trying to persuade us to give up Hayes. I personally don't think that we have to dump him and I simply answered your question. If you think I'm being "cocky" than I don't know what to say. I'm not going to baby you and be some yes man even though you're wrong.