Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space?

[barelyawake]

I understand Arenas' value will go up. My point is how high will it actually get? I don't see even an allstar arenas landing us a significant piece in trade -- because a gm will have to factor in the history of Arenas when selling him to the fanbase. That's my take.

[dropshot001]

arenas needs time to get his value back up. if he starts putting up 25pts a game his value will return to almost what it was before, especially if he evidences good behavior. at this point i can see him having some pretty good trade value

[nate33]

Arenas value is REALLY really REALLY low so he's going to rehab his value unless he goes down with another injury; Arenas has earned cancer status which he is not IMO.

I'm not so sure if this is true. Yes, Arenas' value is real low among most idiots at RealGM, but these are the same idiots who are offering Turkaglu plus Calderon for Arenas. If that is indeed all we can get for Arenas, then yes, Arenas is being undervalued.

However, the offer we are talking about is Arenas for an expiring contract. I submit that that offer already factors the expected improvement in Arenas' trade value as the shooting incident fades from memory. I honestly don't know if Arenas, playing at his best, is worth much more than an expiring contract give his salary.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I understand Arenas' value will go up. My point is how high will it actually get? I don't see even an allstar arenas landing us a significant piece in trade -- because a gm will have to factor in the history of Arenas when selling him to the fanbase. That's my take.

My take is that Gilbert's value might not go up that high, but a trade with Orlando, New York, or several other teams will still be possible in the future barring injury. The only worry for me that would make me say trade Gil post haste is if I foresaw another injury coming. I still wonder if there wasn't something that went down in Chicago a couple weeks back.

Barring Gil's health, I believe trading him for Carter is a bad idea.

I think all the worry over Gil being bad for Wall is just needless anxiety over a situation that is not going to materialize. No matter how quirky Gil is, Wall is grounded. In fact, I see them being very good together. Gil is a much better shooter and IMO has a tighter handle than John Wall at this point. They will present opponents with serious problems. Having Kirk and Nick backing them would give the Wizards a pretty awesome backcourt in starters and backups. Flip would have a lot of options.

My concern is EG and the braintrust haven't squashed anything with Gil, and they want him traded. Ted's words are going in one of my ears and out the other. His retaining EG makes me think it is only a matter of time before Gil is traded. I do not think he and Wall will see the court together. The facts that Kirk Hinrich has been a starter all his career and he will $9Mil this season, make me think Gil will be traded.

I will be pleasantly surprised if Gil remains a Wizard beyond this next six weeks before preseason begins.

[JonathanJoseph]

Can't believe I'm reading some of this stuff. Eddie Jordan just had TWO teams quit on him in a row. For all the folks talking about his player relations, I might argue that Jordan was one of the worst in the NBA.

Jordan created the atmosphere where Jamison and Butler got to the point where they could shoot whatever shots they wanted and not try on defense. They got beyond accoutability (which IMO was what poisoned the well for the whole franchise) and talked openly how the franchise was losing because of the "young guys". He certainly never managed to motivate Blatche, who got awful motivated once Flip showed up. We know that Eddie Jordan messed with Brendan Haywood, benching him randomly for shorter players and having to go to North Carolina in the offseason to smooth things over.

This is clearly a trend for Eddie Jordan, whereas last year was very clearly a fluke for Flip Saunders. I do blame Flip for allowing the Jamison and Butler as-guaranteed 40 minutes and unlimited shots environment to continue, but that's about it. The chemistry on the team was all kinds of screwed up and there was nothing Flip could do to fix it. Once the roster had been gutted and Shaun Livingston entered the starting lineup down the stretch we saw a very, very, very well coached basketball team and the results show that.

[LyricalRico]

^ Great stuff, JJ. I can't believe this pro-EJ stuff either, but I guess time really does heal all wounds. It only took two years for folks to revisit history and paint EJ ad a competent coach. Maybe in another two years they'll say he's HOF worthy.

[DCZards]

He certainly never managed to motivate Blatche, who got awful motivated once Flip showed up.

Are we talking about the same "motivated" Blatche who refused to go back into the game when Flip called his number. And the same Flip whose technique for "motivating" Blatche was to constantly remind him that he's no KG. AB got better (or motivated as you say) because he became the go-to-guy on a bad Wizards team. I'm not so sure Flip's motivational techniques had anything to do with it.

I'm just hoping that Flip and Blatche are on the same page next season...and that Blatche doesn't pout when he is no longer the team's first or second option.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Can't believe I'm reading some of this stuff. Eddie Jordan just had TWO teams quit on him in a row. For all the folks talking about his player relations, I might argue that Jordan was one of the worst in the NBA.

Jordan created the atmosphere where Jamison and Butler got to the point where they could shoot whatever shots they wanted and not try on defense. They got beyond accoutability (which IMO was what poisoned the well for the whole franchise) and talked openly how the franchise was losing because of the "young guys". He certainly never managed to motivate Blatche, who got awful motivated once Flip showed up. We know that Eddie Jordan messed with Brendan Haywood, benching him randomly for shorter players and having to go to North Carolina in the offseason to smooth things over.

This is clearly a trend for Eddie Jordan, whereas last year was very clearly a fluke for Flip Saunders. I do blame Flip for allowing the Jamison and Butler as-guaranteed 40 minutes and unlimited shots environment to continue, but that's about it. The chemistry on the team was all kinds of screwed up and there was nothing Flip could do to fix it. Once the roster had been gutted and Shaun Livingston entered the starting lineup down the stretch we saw a very, very, very well coached basketball team and the results show that.

That is not about it as far as I am concerned. What about ..... DeShawn. Stevenson. ??? How was he better than Nick Young and why did Flip play DeShawn ahead of him. If that was a fluke, Flip started Quinton Ross ahead of Nick, too. I have posted stats on how much more effective Nick was at SG and how the team won, but I don't feel like digging them up. Flip not playing Young was an egregious error he made game after game. JJ, the one thing Flip wasn't is flexible. He stuck with the system and Oberto far too long.

Flip is part of why the chemistry wasn't great, either. EJ might have bought in to his veterans, but if you check back EJ was playing McGee big minutes at the beginning of the 09-10 season, when he got fired at 1-10. He had a very-injured, pre-Tim Grover Arenas for the first five losses of that streak. (Foolishly played Gil 40 minutes plus, no excuse for that).

I am not trying to defend EJ just for the sake of argument. At the same time I do not see Flip deserving all the support for what he failed to get done last season.

On top of 40 minutes Butler and Jamison got under Flip, there were too few minutes for Blatche and virtually none for McGee. Ironically, under Flip Haywood's effectiveness was less than it had been in EJ's system where Brendan was the only guy playing defense. Under Flip, there were a few times I wanted Haywood to sit in favor of McGee, just for offense. I will always believe Flip should have tried Jamison at SF, McGee at PF, and Haywood at C. It would have worked IMO.

[JonathanJoseph]

That is not about it as far as I am concerned. What about ..... DeShawn. Stevenson. ??? How was he better than Nick Young and why did Flip play DeShawn ahead of him. If that was a fluke, Flip started Quinton Ross ahead of Nick, too. I have posted stats on how much more effective Nick was at SG and how the team won, but I don't feel like digging them up. Flip not playing Young was an egregious error he made game after game. JJ, the one thing Flip wasn't is flexible. He stuck with the system and Oberto far too long.

Flip is part of why the chemistry wasn't great, either. EJ might have bought in to his veterans, but if you check back EJ was playing McGee big minutes at the beginning of the 09-10 season, when he got fired at 1-10. He had a very-injured, pre-Tim Grover Arenas for the first five losses of that streak. (Foolishly played Gil 40 minutes plus, no excuse for that).

I am not trying to defend EJ just for the sake of argument. At the same time I do not see Flip deserving all the support for what he failed to get done last season.

On top of 40 minutes Butler and Jamison got under Flip, there were too few minutes for Blatche and virtually none for McGee. Ironically, under Flip Haywood's effectiveness was less than it had been in EJ's system where Brendan was the only guy playing defense. Under Flip, there were a few times I wanted Haywood to sit in favor of McGee, just for offense. I will always believe Flip should have tried Jamison at SF, McGee at PF, and Haywood at C. It would have worked IMO.

Starting Deshawn was never about him being a better player than anyone else, it was Flip trying to find chemistry. Nick Young got his chance to play big minutes too and didn't solve the problem.

I have no problem with any coach who benches Nick Young. Young's basketball IQ is tiny and if he isn't making shots he can really bring a team down. I hope Nick puts it together this year but there's no guarantee that Deshawn will be out of the league before Nick. Same with Javale.. As much as I wanted to see him play and what his athelticism could bring to the lineup, I can't blame a coach for not playing a center who gets repeatedly destroyed defensively. There weren't going to be a lot of minutes for that with Haywood/Jamison/Blatche on the roster.

IMO, you can't blame Flip for the chemistry. The chemistry came from the self-proclaimed leaders Butler/Jamison who spent the previous year blaming everyone but themselves for the team's struggles. The first game post trade deadline the chemistry improved immediately, even if the talent didn't.

I think the common denominators are pretty clear. As I said at the time when people were flipping out about gutting the roster at the deadline, it was addition by subtraction. I have no doubt that Arenas will fall in line and there will be no chemistry problem this season.

[Kanyewest]

Can't believe I'm reading some of this stuff. Eddie Jordan just had TWO teams quit on him in a row. For all the folks talking about his player relations, I might argue that Jordan was one of the worst in the NBA.

Jordan created the atmosphere where Jamison and Butler got to the point where they could shoot whatever shots they wanted and not try on defense. They got beyond accoutability (which IMO was what poisoned the well for the whole franchise) and talked openly how the franchise was losing because of the "young guys". He certainly never managed to motivate Blatche, who got awful motivated once Flip showed up. We know that Eddie Jordan messed with Brendan Haywood, benching him randomly for shorter players and having to go to North Carolina in the offseason to smooth things over.

This is clearly a trend for Eddie Jordan, whereas last year was very clearly a fluke for Flip Saunders. I do blame Flip for allowing the Jamison and Butler as-guaranteed 40 minutes and unlimited shots environment to continue, but that's about it. The chemistry on the team was all kinds of screwed up and there was nothing Flip could do to fix it. Once the roster had been gutted and Shaun Livingston entered the starting lineup down the stretch we saw a very, very, very well coached basketball team and the results show that.

The Wizards didn't quit on EJ. They just sucked; Philly did though. I think no one is advocating let's go back to good old days with EJ; it's just that Flip hasn't really been an upgrade over EJ to this point. I've thought for better or worse that he's EJ 2.0 especially since past players in Detroit have said that he doesn't focus enough energy on the defensive end. Flip also sticked to short rotations and he also tended to play the vets 40+ minutes rather than utilizing a deep bench.

I would say that the other Eddie, Mr. Tapscott, reinforced bad habits, especially of Caron Butler. Butler became a chucker and Jamison too often settled for 3s rather than going into the post (well that's been Jamison's problem his entire career, he's a lost cause IMO and that's why he needed to go) . I think Butler and Jamison already had their flaws defensively. Let's not put their limitations entirely on Eddie Jordan. Jamison was one of the worst defensive players in the league before he came to Washington. Butler has always been known as a tweener. BTW, IMO Butler's defense became worse under Flip than under EJ; perhaps because Flip was hell bent into making Butler guard shooting guards.

I don't understand how this is a fluke for Flip Saunders. He clearly had MUCH MUCH better talent in Detroit- he inherited a starting lineup that had gone to two straight NBA Finals. Flip even lost tragically to LeBron James where he was really outcoached by all people, Mike Brown who did more than expected against the Pistons in 2006 season.

That being said, Saunders didn't have a full year to prove himself. Although if Arenas finished out the season, there's a good chance that Saunders get fired at the end of the season like Eddie Jordan. Although I find it interesting that the owner fired EJ, not the GM Ed Stefanski.

[miller31time]

I stick with my previous assessment of EJ (back when he was with the Wizards) - he's an average coach who has clear strengths and clear weaknesses.

He has a knack for putting his offensive players in the best position for them to score. He is generally good for team morale. And, heck, he's a likable guy.

However, he has more than puzzling rotations and delegates playing time in ways most competent coaches wouldn't. Defensively, he's clueless and we all know it.

Overall, I believe an EJ-coached team has clear limitations and a recognizable ceiling due to the fact that, for true success in this league, you need to bring it on both ends of the floor.

[JonathanJoseph]

The Wizards didn't quit on EJ. They just sucked; Philly did though. I think no one is advocating let's go back to good old days with EJ; it's just that Flip hasn't really been an upgrade over EJ to this point. I've thought for better or worse that he's EJ 2.0 especially since past players in Detroit have said that he doesn't focus enough energy on the defensive end. Flip also sticked to short rotations and he also tended to play the vets 40+ minutes rather than utilizing a deep bench.

I would say that the other Eddie, Mr. Tapscott, reinforced bad habits, especially of Caron Butler. Butler became a chucker and Jamison too often settled for 3s rather than going into the post (well that's been Jamison's problem his entire career, he's a lost cause IMO and that's why he needed to go) . I think Butler and Jamison already had their flaws defensively. Let's not put their limitations entirely on Eddie Jordan. Jamison was one of the worst defensive players in the league before he came to Washington. Butler has always been known as a tweener. BTW, IMO Butler's defense became worse under Flip than under EJ; perhaps because Flip was hell bent into making Butler guard shooting guards.

I don't understand how this is a fluke for Flip Saunders. He clearly had MUCH MUCH better talent in Detroit- he inherited a starting lineup that had gone to two straight NBA Finals. Flip even lost tragically to LeBron James where he was really outcoached by all people, Mike Brown who did more than expected against the Pistons in 2006 season.

That being said, Saunders didn't have a full year to prove himself. Although if Arenas finished out the season, there's a good chance that Saunders get fired at the end of the season like Eddie Jordan. Although I find it interesting that the owner fired EJ, not the GM Ed Stefanski.

Um, Flip won an average of 59 games per season in Detroit. The Pistons never won more than 54 games under Larry Brown and 50 games under Rick Carslisle, two pretty good NBA coaches. Three straight trips to the EC Finals is nothing to sneeze at. You make it sound like Flip's Detroit teams were .500.

And yes, the Wizards quit on Eddie Jordan.

[Benjammin]

From an Orlando Magic forum, for whatever it's worth...(not even sure if this is an accurate report or not)


Hey guys. I know its my 1st post but i just heard on 740am the game about the magic proposing a deal that would send carter to the wizards for gilbert arenas and a future 1st round pick. They said that earlier in the offseason it was wizards who 1st proposed to orlando but otis laughed at it. Well now otis has a change of heart according to them and is willing to do it. They said a 3rd team is interested in the trade that could send gortat also. This is paraphrasing what they said. "Word around magic front office is that otis has been approved on spending since they matched redicks offer from the bulls. That wasn't the case a couple days before the draft. The devos family was hesitant on spending and that is the reason on otis declining the original gilbert for vince trade because they didn't want the extra years and money added on to their payroll. The trade is being finalized and could be done by tomorrow but a 3rd team is interested that could move gortat and push the trade to be done by end of the week."

http://orlandomagiczone.com/eve/forums/ ... 108488/p/1

[JWizmentality]

You can take me off the Ted bandwagon if that trade goes down, especially if we give up a 1st also. $h!t trade.

[Benjammin]

I don't think Ted would include a first round pick, with his love of young players and commitment to the draft. There's no question this is a difficult decision if this is on the table. It would be great to have a wonderful redemption story of Gil playing well and being welcomed back into the fans' good graces. However, there are risks of re-injury as well as him not getting back his full explosion and dynamism. Offensively, I think Gil and Wall can play well together. In any event, I wouldn't add any sweetener to a Gil for cap space kind of deal.

[verbal8]

You can take me off the Ted bandwagon if that trade goes down, especially if we give up a 1st also. $h!t trade.

I really can't see the Wizards giving up a 1st in a deal to dump Arenas. Leonsis' philosophy is to acquire picks and prospects, not send them off to save money.

[LyricalRico]

You can take me off the Ted bandwagon if that trade goes down, especially if we give up a 1st also. $h!t trade.

I really can't see the Wizards giving up a 1st in a deal to dump Arenas. Leonsis' philosophy is to acquire picks and prospects, not send them off to save money.

Agreed. But the link did mention a third team. Maybe the pick is coming from the third team in exchange for Gortat?

[Ruzious]

And even if this is true, I'd expect there'd be some protection on the 1st round pick. I don't see Ted allowing EG to trade away potentially high picks. Remember when we got the so-called 1st round pick from Memphis for the little Euro guard. It was so protected that it turned out to be nothing.

[nate33]

I figure it's a heavily protected 1st. Maybe top 16 this year, top 14 next year, and then lotto protected in perpetuity. There's no way Ted gives up a lotto pick in the immediate future just to dump Arenas.

[miller31time]

Yeah, I trust Ted to the extent I know he wouldn't give away high draft picks unless they were highly protected.

Regarding the principle of an Arenas for Carter swap, I'd begrudgingly accept it. Gilbert is a great player and a better person (despite the gun incident) but his contract, defensive limitations plus the fact he plays the same position as our franchise player (Wall) says to me that if we can get him off our books, we need to do it.

I'd also hope that Gilbert kicks ass in Orlando because, while he's a knucklehead sometimes, he's also one of the true "real" people we have in this league and about as entertaining as they come.