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Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space?

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Re: Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space? 

Post#521 » by Benjammin » Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:31 am

Ruzious wrote:It's not 1 year of cap space; it's 3 years of cap space the Wiz would gain. It would take a lot of incompetence to not find good ways to use that space for 3 years.


It's approximately $58 million in potential cap space over three years (Gil's $62 million dollar deal minus Carter's $4 million dollar buyout in 2011-2012).

I have to agree with Ruzious, it would indeed take a lot of incompetence to not find good ways to use that space for three years. It doesn't mean it would all go towards new players, but a good portion could.
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Re: Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space? 

Post#522 » by Kanyewest » Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:55 am

Can we use that cap space for great use- such as giving free beer to the fans?
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Re: Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space? 

Post#523 » by no D in Hibachi » Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:59 am

The Wiz had max cap space this year and used it on Yi, Hinrich, Sheraphin, and Armstrong. What is EG going to do to top that with Gilberts space? Do you trust him to effectively use the space? Everyone says the space can be used for BOYD deals but Lebron is a free agent only once every four years. No other player will make a team give up two lotto picks and a former lotto pick for cap roome. I know I'm in the minority but I firmly believe a team of McGee, Blatche, Wall, Arenas + one more late lotto pick + cap space can compete with the super team. Wall and McGee will become special players soon, Blatche is already a good player, and Arenas has a massive chip on his shoulder.
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Re: Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space? 

Post#524 » by JonathanJoseph » Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:12 am

There's a lot of smoke here, but I don't think there will be fire. It just doesn't make sense.
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Re: Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space? 

Post#525 » by hands11 » Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:19 am

After 35 pages, it may be time to bring out the beating a dead horse picture.

Not sure anything new is going to get written.

Those what want Gil have voiced it.

Those that don't, have voiced it also.

The line has been cast. Now we just have to sit and wait.

Wait for Gil news.
Wait for Dray news
Wait for Seraphin news.
And maybe some Singleton news.
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Re: Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space? 

Post#526 » by dobrojim » Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:20 am

I was gone for a couple days and now what?
More rumors of dumping Gil. They better not.
That would suck. If they really feel like they
need to, now is not the time. They gotta wait
and see how this might work first me thinks.
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Re: Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space? 

Post#527 » by Dat2U » Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:11 am

Ruzious wrote:It's not 1 year of cap space; it's 3 years of cap space the Wiz would gain. It would take a lot of incompetence to not find good ways to use that space for 3 years.


Um, did u forget who our GM is? $17 mil for pick? Throwing away $4 mil on Yi and not getting some asset in return. EG has proven to be totally incompetent and reckless when it comes to spending money. Yes, with Leonsis in charge there will be checks & balances in place to prevent some of EG's spending. However, after seeing what EG has done thus far, I'm not very hopeful that he'd make good use of our future cap space.
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Re: Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space? 

Post#528 » by willbcocks » Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:47 am

If the choice were between Gil or 3 heinrich equivalents and 3 #17 picks over the next 3 years, I'd take the picks. Even with EG's lack of understanding of value, that would be the far better scenario.
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Re: Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space? 

Post#529 » by JonathanJoseph » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:34 am

Couldn't go too long before folks had to start hating on Grunfeld.

Back in reality, the Wizards have plenty of cap space this year and in the coming years and have a significant amount of young talent on the roster including 3 players 24 years old or less that have a good chance at becoming all-stars.
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Re: Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space? 

Post#530 » by Ruzious » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:33 am

Dat2U wrote:
Ruzious wrote:It's not 1 year of cap space; it's 3 years of cap space the Wiz would gain. It would take a lot of incompetence to not find good ways to use that space for 3 years.


Um, did u forget who our GM is? $17 mil for pick? Throwing away $4 mil on Yi and not getting some asset in return. EG has proven to be totally incompetent and reckless when it comes to spending money. Yes, with Leonsis in charge there will be checks & balances in place to prevent some of EG's spending. However, after seeing what EG has done thus far, I'm not very hopeful that he'd make good use of our future cap space.

Dat, If you don't think we can use cap space at all... in 3 years then just give up now and find another team to root for, because there will be no chance at all of ever competing. You're wasting your time here - unless you enjoy being a martyr. Ignore the fact that he got Seraphin by using cap space. Better yet, whine about it and spread some more doom and gloom.

We've already gone over Yi ad nauseum. He was a smart pickup for the Wiz. He's got a 1 year deal. He's got excellent physical ability that he hasn't reached. We had a major depth problem and needed someone to fill minutes.
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Re: Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space? 

Post#531 » by Dat2U » Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:59 pm

willbcocks wrote:If the choice were between Gil or 3 heinrich equivalents and 3 #17 picks over the next 3 years, I'd take the picks. Even with EG's lack of understanding of value, that would be the far better scenario.


Sounds like a sure fire way to build a mediocre team. Yeah, let's add mediocre overpaid talent & some middling picks every year. Mid-to-late first rounders are great picks to add, if done so cheapily. Seraphin cost us an arm & a leg. to me EG's entire offseason depends upon how good Seraphin eventually becomes. Wall fell into his lap, not sure how much credit he should get for that.
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Re: Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space? 

Post#532 » by fishercob » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:09 pm

Dat2U wrote:
willbcocks wrote:If the choice were between Gil or 3 heinrich equivalents and 3 #17 picks over the next 3 years, I'd take the picks. Even with EG's lack of understanding of value, that would be the far better scenario.


Sounds like a sure fire way to build a mediocre team. Yeah, let's add mediocre overpaid talent & some middling picks every year. Mid-to-late first rounders are great picks to add, if done so cheapily. Seraphin cost us an arm & a leg. to me EG's entire offseason depends upon how good Seraphin eventually becomes. Wall fell into his lap, not sure how much credit he should get for that.


I think that's right, which means it's going to take us quite some time to really judge this offseason. Hinrich's impact will play a role in how we judge this summer too. My guess is that it will be harder to measure.

I'll say this though -- Gil has never played in a backcourt rotation as talented as it is now with Wall and Kirk. He's never played with guys as stable and heady, never played with guys who do things so very well that he doesnt (defend, at least in Kirk's case). The Hinrich get could prove to be as much of a boon to Gil as it is to Wall. I really think that trio could be special.
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Re: Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space? 

Post#533 » by Dat2U » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:14 pm

Ruzious wrote:Dat, If you don't think we can use cap space at all... in 3 years then just give up now and find another team to root for, because there will be no chance at all of ever competing. You're wasting your time here - unless you enjoy being a martyr. Ignore the fact that he got Seraphin by using cap space. Better yet, whine about it and spread some more doom and gloom.

We've already gone over Yi ad nauseum. He was a smart pickup for the Wiz. He's got a 1 year deal. He's got excellent physical ability that he hasn't reached. We had a major depth problem and needed someone to fill minutes.


I have no faith in Ernie but I do have faith that he'll eventually be held accountable. Teddy is smart man and I suspect EG won't have the opportunity to screw up multiple offseasons as he did under Pollin.

And Yi cannot play. He's simply Is terrible basketball player who happens to be a good athlete. Just because someone has the raw physical tools doesn't mean their capable of being a quality NBA player. Kwame tought me than hard lesson years ago.

If we wanted to add the worst possible option to eat up minutes so we can suck, then Yi was the best possible option. Well, 2nd maybe to Adam Morrison.
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Re: Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space? 

Post#534 » by WizStorm » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:17 pm

Benjammin wrote:That's probably true that there is a disconnect. I know for me that the emotional attachment to Gil makes evaluating the decision more difficult. For example, knowing everything we know right now about Gil and his recent years, should the Wizards sign Gil to a 4 year 80 million dollar contract, because that's what is left on his deal. Now we can argue that taking on a year of Vince Carter at 17.3 million plus a four million dollar buyout also needs to be put into the equation. Finally, some might argue if not Gil at this money, then who?

So fellow Wizards fans, would you sign Gil to a four year 80 million dollar contract if he were a free agent and everything else was identical?
I believe JRo posted this question earlier and I basically tossed aside the argument as irrelevant as he's already on the team. I guess I should try and expand on that. To answer the hypothetical directly and truthfully, no I would not sign Gil to such a contract today. Given Gil's injury history, time away from the game and media backlash against such a move, he simply wouldn't be worth the risk.

However, that is not the situation before us. Gil is already a Wizard and has a fan base here that I believe is eager to re-embrace him. With Gil already under contract for another 4 years, we've assumed most of the risk already and I believe it's time to roll the dice and see if we can catch lightning in a bottle once again with Gil. If Gil can shake off the rust, heal from his injury and return to any semblance of his old self, we could potentially have set ourselves up with one of the most dynamic backcourts in the history of the NBA. And then you can ask me then if I would still sign Gil to same contract as the length of Gil's large contract meshes perfectly with the length of Wall's small rookie deal.

That being said, I worry like everyone else about just how much the injury will affect Gil's game and whether he'll be the same player ever again. This is where I think that John Wall could do wonders for Gil and allow Gil to play off the ball, be a deadly outside assassin and not be forced to try take opposing PG's off the dribble. Even last year after coming back from injury and years of rust, I think Gil proved he can still beat most opposing SG's off the dribble and get to the rim/line when he was paired with Boykins. This allowed Gil to get in his comfort zone and be a double threat and showed us glimpses of what he was and who he can still be in this league.

And again, I think John Wall would be the biggest benefactor in all of this. On the court, Wall won't have as much pressure to be a marksman from outside as he refines his shot in the coming years. Wall would also have the luxury to give the ball off to Gil at times especially when he has tough defensive assignment against him. Off the court, Wall won't have the added pressure of being a one-man show with all eyes and media cameras on him. I'm not saying the spotlight won't be shined the brightest on John Wall, but there would be enough of a story with Gil that will take some of that attention away.
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Re: Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space? 

Post#535 » by AceDegenerate » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:24 pm

willbcocks wrote:If the choice were between Gil or 3 heinrich equivalents and 3 #17 picks over the next 3 years, I'd take the picks. Even with EG's lack of understanding of value, that would be the far better scenario.


This is because you are a hater, and in my entire time reading this board you have shown more knowledge of literature than you have Basketball.
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Re: Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space? 

Post#536 » by AceDegenerate » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:25 pm

Ruzious wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
Ruzious wrote:It's not 1 year of cap space; it's 3 years of cap space the Wiz would gain. It would take a lot of incompetence to not find good ways to use that space for 3 years.


Um, did u forget who our GM is? $17 mil for pick? Throwing away $4 mil on Yi and not getting some asset in return. EG has proven to be totally incompetent and reckless when it comes to spending money. Yes, with Leonsis in charge there will be checks & balances in place to prevent some of EG's spending. However, after seeing what EG has done thus far, I'm not very hopeful that he'd make good use of our future cap space.

Dat, If you don't think we can use cap space at all... in 3 years then just give up now and find another team to root for, because there will be no chance at all of ever competing.



Ah-ha. Like you, Mr. Dual Allegiances.
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Re: Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space? 

Post#537 » by nate33 » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:25 pm

Dat2U wrote:I have no faith in Ernie but I do have faith that he'll eventually be held accountable. Teddy is smart man and I suspect EG won't have the opportunity to screw up multiple offseasons as he did under Pollin.

And Yi cannot play. He's simply Is terrible basketball player who happens to be a good athlete. Just because someone has the raw physical tools doesn't mean their capable of being a quality NBA player. Kwame tought me than hard lesson years ago.

If we wanted to add the worst possible option to eat up minutes so we can suck, then Yi was the best possible option. Well, 2nd maybe to Adam Morrison.

I'm not thrilled about the Yi acquisition, but I'm not that upset about it either. Blatche can't play 48 minutes. We had a need for a backup PF who could spread the floor for Arenas and Wall to penetrate. Rather than acquire a free agent on a long term deal to fill that role, EG found a stopgap solution in Yi. There's maybe a 10% chance that Yi can still "break out", which would make the trade a brilliant move. Otherwise, we'll just cut Yi next summer with no harm done.

BOYD trades are no long an option this year so we didn't really have much else we could do with the money. The opportunity cost was low.
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Re: Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space? 

Post#538 » by Hoopalotta » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:30 pm

This debate is like a bear roaring before hibernation.

Summer League's over. Matt Barne's picture is on the front page of the site. The Wiretap recently ran a "Devin George wants to resign with the Warriors" story. It's basketball purgatory.

Once the arguments here are exhausted (which was about ten pages ago), might as well just sticky the random thoughts thread.

As to me, I'm be digesting some salmon I pawed out of the stream.
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Re: Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space? 

Post#539 » by nate33 » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:38 pm

WizStorm wrote:To answer the hypothetical directly and truthfully, no I would not sign Gil to such a contract today. Given Gil's injury history, time away from the game and media backlash against such a move, he simply wouldn't be worth the risk.

However, that is not the situation before us. Gil is already a Wizard and has a fan base here that I believe is eager to re-embrace him. With Gil already under contract for another 4 years, we've assumed most of the risk already and I believe it's time to roll the dice and see if we can catch lightning in a bottle once again with Gil. If Gil can shake off the rust, heal from his injury and return to any semblance of his old self, we could potentially have set ourselves up with one of the most dynamic backcourts in the history of the NBA. And then you can ask me then if I would still sign Gil to same contract as the length of Gil's large contract meshes perfectly with the length of Wall's small rookie deal.

That being said, I worry like everyone else about just how much the injury will affect Gil's game and whether he'll be the same player ever again. This is where I think that John Wall could do wonders for Gil and allow Gil to play off the ball, be a deadly outside assassin and not be forced to try take opposing PG's off the dribble. Even last year after coming back from injury and years of rust, I think Gil proved he can still beat most opposing SG's off the dribble and get to the rim/line when he was paired with Boykins. This allowed Gil to get in his comfort zone and be a double threat and showed us glimpses of what he was and who he can still be in this league.

And again, I think John Wall would be the biggest benefactor in all of this. On the court, Wall won't have as much pressure to be a marksman from outside as he refines his shot in the coming years. Wall would also have the luxury to give the ball off to Gil at times especially when he has tough defensive assignment against him. Off the court, Wall won't have the added pressure of being a one-man show with all eyes and media cameras on him. I'm not saying the spotlight won't be shined the brightest on John Wall, but there would be enough of a story with Gil that will take some of that attention away.

This doesn't make any sense. You said that you wouldn't sign Arenas to a 4-year $80M deal, but then you just argued why it's worth it to keep him for 4 years $80M. You didn't explain why you make a distinction between signing him and retaining him.

You made a general statement that "we've already assumed most of the risk" but I don't see how that is true. If anything, knowing what we know now, the risk of keeping Arenas is greater than the risk of signing him to the original contract 2 years ago. He now know that the injury was much more severe than originally diagnosed. And we now know that Arenas is going to play out of position.

The only tangible argument you made to justify keeping him when you wouldn't actually sign him right now is due to the fanbase "that is ready to embrace him". I'm not so sure that such a fanbase exists. I think most casual fans will be happy to embrace John Wall and forget all about Arenas.
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Re: Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space? 

Post#540 » by nate33 » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:43 pm

Hoopalotta wrote:This debate is like a bear roaring before hibernation.

Summer League's over. Matt Barne's picture is on the front page of the site. The Wiretap recently ran a "Devin George wants to resign with the Warriors" story. It's basketball purgatory.

Once the arguments here are exhausted (which was about ten pages ago), might as well just sticky the random thoughts thread.

As to me, I'm be digesting some salmon I pawed out of the stream.

You're probably right. I find the debate an interesting one though. It's what this board is all about. This Arenas situation is a classic dilemma that every real GM faces from time to time. If nothing else, it should make one appreciate that EG's job isn't as easy as some make it out to be. On a decision like this one, EG is sure to disappoint half this board.

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