Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space?

[SOUP]

Can you imagine what OKC (the team everybody wants to emulate) would be like if they had never traded Ray Allen? If they said "hey, we've got so many memories tied up in this guy and he's still a 20ppg scorer, so we can't trade him"? They would not have had the success they had last season and may still be a couple of seasons away from that kind of success. They bit the bullet, flattened everything down to the bottom, and started building from there.

Exccuse me. But wasn't Ray Allen traded for the fifth pick in the draft--Jeff Green? That's a big difference from trading GA for Carter (a player you believe will never play for the Zards) just so the Wizards can get that mythical "cap space." Cap space which may or may not yield a quality player. I believe "a bird in the hand (Arenas) is worth two in the bush."

Not just capspace, a better pick in the draft and more playing time for your young players that you will use for your run at a ring.

[LyricalRico]

Nate, the upside in keeping Gil is an all-star backcourt mate for Wall. Why overthink that?

But to what end? 30 wins? 35 wins? Other than nostalgia for the fools gold of the EJ years or desperation for short-term excitement, I don't see much of a point.

Nobody wanted to use our cap space this summer to trade for stars on max deals because they wouldn't really help the team in the long run. All we'd be doing doing is gumming up our cap and notching a few more empty wins, right? People seem much more hesitant to apply the same logic to Arenas, but I see it as the same situation.

Let me put it this way: Would we trade an expiring contract to acquire Gilbert Arenas? Absolutely not, for the reasons stated above. Well, wouldn't declining an offer of an expiring contract by another team for Arenas be exactly the same thing? The only reason to keep Gil would be warm and fuzzy feelings for a few game winning shots on a mediocre team. Again, people - less nostalgia and more strategic thinking.

[Hoopalotta]

It should be noted that OKC would have never gotten Westbrook or Harden (or a shot at Evans) had they kept Ray-Ray. They absolutely would not be the up and coming team that they are now if they hadn't made that move, not even having anything to do with Jeff Green (that's not even accounting for the cap space).

How this affects the Wizards situation is uncertain based on the poor 2011 draft and divergent views on how good a Gill-less squad would do, but I think the results are quite clear for OKC.

[fishercob]

Nate, the upside in keeping Gil is an all-star backcourt mate for Wall. Why overthink that?

But to what end? 30 wins? 35 wins? Other than nostalgia for the fools gold of the EJ years or desperation for short-term excitement, I don't see much of a point.

Nobody wanted to use our cap space this summer to trade for stars on max deals because they wouldn't really help the team in the long run. All we'd be doing doing is gumming up our cap and notching a few more empty wins, right? People seem much more hesitant to apply the same logic to Arenas, but I see it as the same situation.

Let me put it this way: Would we trade an expiring contract to acquire Gilbert Arenas? Absolutely not, for the reasons stated above. Well, wouldn't declining an offer of an expiring contract by another team for Arenas be exactly the same thing? The only reason to keep Gil would be warm and fuzzy feelings for a few game winning shots on a mediocre team. Again, people - less nostalgia and more strategic thinking.

What's the downside in trading Gil at the deadline as opposed to this summer? WHatever risk it entails is worth a look at the Gil-Wall backcourt and worth the upside that a "rehabbed" Gil will return in a trade. We don't need any more cap space this summer. If we need cap space next summer or the summer after that, then we can trade Arenas closer to those points.

It's not about nostalgia. Signing Juan Dixon would be about nostalgia. I don't understand why would want to not have an all-star on this team when the expected return is cap space -- not a young player, not picks, just cap space. Let him build his value so that we can actually get something for him.

[willbcocks]

If the choice were between Gil or 3 heinrich equivalents and 3 #17 picks over the next 3 years, I'd take the picks. Even with EG's lack of understanding of value, that would be the far better scenario.

Sounds like a sure fire way to build a mediocre team. Yeah, let's add mediocre overpaid talent & some middling picks every year. Mid-to-late first rounders are great picks to add, if done so cheapily. Seraphin cost us an arm & a leg. to me EG's entire offseason depends upon how good Seraphin eventually becomes. Wall fell into his lap, not sure how much credit he should get for that.

How is that team any more middling than a team with Gil? You've been shouting about us being middling for all these years, but now that we have a chance to be bad, then hopefully good again, you seem to want us to stay right in the middle. I get some people's reasons for keeping Gil but I'm not sure I understand why you want to.

[DCZards]

Washington DC, with John Wall, Ted Leonsis and a ton of cap space, will be an attractive destination for free agents. Maybe we don't land Melo or Howard, but we can still get, say, Marc Gasol and Nicholas Batum for less money that what we'd pay Arenas. And that doesn't even factor the advantages of having more BOYD money and a higher draft pick next year because of a worse record.

So you want to essentially get rid of GA for the "chance" to sign Gasol and Batum? And that gets us closer to a championship? You got to do better than that, Nate. Gasol and Batum are decent players, but what does Gasol, who I like, do that McGee/Seraphin won't?

[DCZards]

The only reason to keep Gil would be warm and fuzzy feelings for a few game winning shots on a mediocre team. Again, people - less nostalgia and more strategic thinking.

No, the reason to keep Gil is because he's capable of averaging 25 pts, 6 assists and 2 steals (along with a few game winning shots). Those aren't warm and fuzzy (fanboy) feelings; those are straight up facts.

[AnotherFinn]

I think trading Gil right now would be like trying to sell house in middle of depression, just because you don't like color of it and just because you might need money next year. Why not wait a little bit?

I am quite sure there is few teams in trade dealine who is looking the final piece and might be willing to give pick up instead us needing to give one now.

[willbcocks]

If Gil played some hard nosed defense or if we had ever won more than 45 games in a weak eastern conference with some talented players, I would see the arguments for keeping on his repeatedly injured, extremely overpaid behind.

But we never won a second round game and Gil has never shown a committment, or ability, on that side of the floor. I don't see the upside really.

We just drafted a guy who will probably become a superstar. A long two way player who is a pure point. IMO, we need to build a long, tough defensive team with good position guys, hopefully who are high enough draft picks to meet those criteria and have some skill.

Gil does not check any of my boxes.

[DCZards]

How is that team any more middling than a team with Gil? You've been shouting about us being middling for all these years, but now that we have a chance to be bad, then hopefully good again, you seem to want us to stay right in the middle. I get some people's reasons for keeping Gil but I'm not sure I understand why you want to.

Hopefully, huh? Everyone talks about the OKC model, but for every OKC there are 6-7 NBA teams like LAC, Minn., Memphis, GS., who "hope" that they can get better by losing and getting a high lottery pick every year. How has that turned out? OKC didn't hope to get better they got very lucky and drafted Durant (after Portland passed on him), who only happens to be one of the 1 or 2 best young forwards in the NBA. And a future hall of famer.

I think the Zards chances of being good again are better with GA and than without him. I'm not much for "hoping" that things break just right for the Zards.

[willbcocks]

And then OKC surrounded him with high picks including Westbrook and Harden.

We've got our Durant. His last name is Wall, not Arenas.

[no D in Hibachi]

It should be noted that OKC would have never gotten Westbrook or Harden (or a shot at Evans) had they kept Ray-Ray. They absolutely would not be the up and coming team that they are now if they hadn't made that move, not even having anything to do with Jeff Green (that's not even accounting for the cap space).

How this affects the Wizards situation is uncertain based on the poor 2011 draft and divergent views on how good a Gill-less squad would do, but I think the results are quite clear for OKC.

With the upcoming CBA negotiaions and near certain lockout what top flite prospect is going to leave school when there is legit potential they'll have to sit out an entire season because a lock-out? If this wasn't an issue I'd probably be in favor of dumping Gil and continue tanking, but it doesn't look like great prospects will be available.

[BanndNDC]

"How might OKC look if they never traded Allen?"

They might still be in Seattle. Trading Allen was one of their alienating the fan base moves designed to help ease their move to OKC. Besides which they got the 5th pick in the draft and not just cap space.

[barelyawake]

It seems the people who want to keep Gil never take the next step in their argument to list five guys we could reasonably get to build a championship team with Gil on it. We aren't getting lottery picks with Gil on the team. We have some cap space. We have Blatche and Java to trade or use. Now, show me how you go from that situation to a team that can beat the Lakers, Miami and NY (assuming CP, Amare and Melo are going to NY as they said).

Will Gil/Wall make one of the best backcourts in the league? Yes, now show me how you get the other three that loft us to a championship team. And I'll tell you the only way you can mentally get there is severly overrating Blatche. The trade Gil people have several ways to get to a championship -- high draft picks and lots of cap for BOYD deals and max players. The keep Gil people need to start throwing out line-ups that demonstrate your way has a chance. Show me line-ups and how we get there. Talk specifics. I haven't heard one plan in about a hundred pages of debate on this topic covering various threads.

[LyricalRico]

The only reason to keep Gil would be warm and fuzzy feelings for a few game winning shots on a mediocre team. Again, people - less nostalgia and more strategic thinking.

No, the reason to keep Gil is because he's capable of averaging 25 pts, 6 assists and 2 steals (along with a few game winning shots). Those aren't warm and fuzzy (fanboy) feelings; those are striaight up facts.

Again, nobody is disputing the stats. But what does that give you that's worth having? This team isn't going anywhere, so you'll get maybe 35 or so wins and some short-term excitement but no real way to get better. Is that really worth $20M a season and the potential for another incident? I would say no.

[LyricalRico]

It seems the people who want to keep Gil never take the next step in their argument to list five guys we could reasonably get to build a championship team with Gil on it. We aren't getting lottery picks with Gil on the team. We have some cap space. We have Blatche and Java to trade or use. Now, show me how you go from that situation to a team that can beat the Lakers, Miami and NY (assuming CP, Amare and Melo are going to NY as they said).

Will Gil/Wall make one of the best backcourts in the league? Yes, now show me how you get the other three that loft us to a championship team. And I'll tell you the only way you can mentally get there is severly overrating Blatche. The trade Gil people have several ways to get to a championship -- high draft picks and lots of cap for BOYD deals and max players. The keep Gil people need to start throwing out line-ups that demonstrate your way has a chance. Show me line-ups and how we get there. Talk specifics. I haven't heard one plan in about a hundred pages of debate on this topic covering various threads.

This x 1,000,000

[no D in Hibachi]

The only reason to keep Gil would be warm and fuzzy feelings for a few game winning shots on a mediocre team. Again, people - less nostalgia and more strategic thinking.

No, the reason to keep Gil is because he's capable of averaging 25 pts, 6 assists and 2 steals (along with a few game winning shots). Those aren't warm and fuzzy (fanboy) feelings; those are striaight up facts.

Again, nobody is disputing the stats. But what does that give you that's worth having? This team isn't going anywhere, so you'll get maybe 35 or so wins and some short-term excitement but no real way to get better. Is that really worth $20M a season and the potential for another incident? I would say no.

Rico, I expect this type of stuff on the General Board--be a bit more realistic. Unless by incident you mean injury then I'm fine with that.

[LyricalRico]

^ Wait a minute, hibachi. The whole premise of keeping Arenas is that you're looking at what he's done in the past as justification for him staying on the team. The post I quoted said that Gil is "capable" of 25/6/2. What is that based on? It's based on Gilbert's track record of activity on the court. But when I try to say that Gil is "capable" of another off-court incident based on track record of previous behavior, you say I'm being unrealistic? Right...

See, this is the "nostalgia" that I'm talking about. All people want to see are the game winners and the "hibachi" moments. But when somebody brings up anything negative, you're biased and blinded by hate and not being realistic. You can't have it both ways.

[DCZards]

Will Gil/Wall make one of the best backcourts in the league? Yes, now show me how you get the other three that loft us to a championship team. The trade Gil people have several ways to get to a championship -- high draft picks and lots of cap for BOYD deals and max players. The keep Gil people need to start throwing out line-ups that demonstrate your way has a chance. Show me line-ups and how we get there. Talk specifics. I haven't heard one plan in about a hundred pages of debate on this topic covering various threads.

High draft picks and cap room to sign players? Those aren't specifics. They represent hopes and dreams. You don't know if those high draft picks are going to turn out to be uber-talents like Wall. Heck, they might not even be as good as Blathce. And you don't know if that "cap space" is going to lead to a single top-flight player signing with the Zards. The only specific you cited was that "Gil/Wall make one of the best backcourts in the league."

[AceDegenerate]

It seems the people who want to keep Gil never take the next step in their argument to list five guys we could reasonably get to build a championship team with Gil on it. We aren't getting lottery picks with Gil on the team. We have some cap space. We have Blatche and Java to trade or use. Now, show me how you go from that situation to a team that can beat the Lakers, Miami and NY (assuming CP, Amare and Melo are going to NY as they said).

Will Gil/Wall make one of the best backcourts in the league? Yes, now show me how you get the other three that loft us to a championship team. And I'll tell you the only way you can mentally get there is severly overrating Blatche. The trade Gil people have several ways to get to a championship -- high draft picks and lots of cap for BOYD deals and max players. The keep Gil people need to start throwing out line-ups that demonstrate your way has a chance. Show me line-ups and how we get there. Talk specifics. I haven't heard one plan in about a hundred pages of debate on this topic covering various threads.

This x 1,000,000

Yeah because everybody else has a sure-fire plan to bring a Title to D.C... Including Rico.

None of you has a plan to bring a Championship to D.C.. .Not a single one of you, and this clown has the gall to call out those in support of Gilbert saying they have no plan. Get over yourselves, just because some on this board fall in line with what you think, doesn't mean your BS ideas hold any weight.