Andrea isn't a C - But what is a C?

[appel]

I read every day the same reasons "Bargs isn't a C. He don't take enough rebounds. He have no low post game. bla bla bla"

Now try to think, You are reasoning with stereotypes

What is REALLY a C?

Defense

A) he guard the opposite C (and Bargs do this)
B) he take some rebounds, but first of all he must box out the opposite C (and Bargs do this)
Some people think he must be the best rebounder. WRONG !!!!
Example?
I think somebody remember Jabbar, he was one of the best C all-time
Look at his numbers in 1986/1987
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1987.html
He was the THIRD rebounder after Green and Magic
And he was Karim !! And they won the ring !!
He wasn't a good C?
The same in 1981/82, he was the second rebounder
Look at the Spurs 1998/99
Robinson was the C
Was the best rebounder? No, TD was the first (D too)
Was Robinson a bad C and a bad rebounder?
They won the ring without a good C?

Offense

A) he play low post usually (Bargs didn't play low post, only some time)
B) he's guarded from the opposite C (Usually Bargs isn't guarded from a C)
C) because he play low-post he must take some offensive rebound (but Bargs play away from the basket)

What are the considerations?
Bargs can play C defensively but he's not a offensive C.
What we need then? someone who can play the low post and can rebound offensively
And, defensively, can guard the PF
A player like Amir? Maybe but his D is questionable and he's foul prone. A player like Bosh? Idem (except the fact he was too selfish and can't defend on my grandmother). Blake Griffin? this would be a good idea. Oakley? Oakley is retired...
Ed Davis? We will see, actually i like Ed, he's the most talented (maybe the only) in the "young gunz"

Otherwise we must try another choice
Putting a real C (Chandler? Dampier? Biedrins? Prxybilla?Oden?) with Bargs
And Bargs must guard the opposite PF


But stop with "Bargs must play low post"
He must take some low post plays when he's guarded from a PF
But if he play only low post he will be easy dominated from a defensive C.
He's a very good shooter with a crazy first step
Let him play away from the basket, the C's can't defend on him and, if a C will try, he would be dominate every time Andrea put the ball on the floor
Anyway the C would be away from the rebounds


ANd stop with the story "Bargs isn't a C". Defensively he's a C.
But, if he were a true C (offensively too), he could not play with Bosh because Bosh needed his space in low post and you can't play with 2 players in the same position on the floor

P.s. My english is very poor, i know, sorry

[[R]P]bouncAz#5]

-Andrea has probably had only 3-4 solid years trying to learn the C position (hence, the saying that big men take longer to develop). He does have a quick first step, and he prefers to play around the perimeter, but in order to do that, we would need players that complement his game (i.e. big bodies that can clog up lanes and crash boards like Perkins, Noah, Chandler).

But with our current lineup, we don't have a big bodied 5 that can fully complement Bargnani's outside game, so our only option now is to continue developing Bargnani's inside game.

I really like to look at this years GAME 7 between Lakers and Celtics as a standard model. I truly believe that the best teams should have players built like those two teams: 1 defensive big in the inside (Perkins/Bynum), and a 1 PF that can stretch out the offense (Garnett/Gasol).

I can see Bargnani playing the a role like Garnett & Gasol, but I honestly think we still need that big bodied 5 that can just crash boards and take up space in the key.

[DasKoo]

you're forgetting help defense — bargnani just can't do that. he played as a SF throughout his formative years: while it means he has a bigger baggage of offensive skills, it also means he doesn't have the timing.

let's hope pianigiani works some magic: in the last three games with the NT I've seen him trying to actually play some help defense; his timing is slightly off, but when he starts reacting half a second earlier things will be way better. the problem is that so far nobody bothered to teach him, put him in a clearly defined defensive system and let him learn what to do, let him interiorize the timing. in the last four NBA seasons, he only played with the smitch (who changed an unholy amount of defensive strategies, including the dreaded "switch on everything that resembles a screen" matchup-zone which often left bargnani and bosh isolated at the top of the key…) and triano, whose track record so far is utterly mediocre.

meh.

[Jim Todd Jr.]

andrea is gonna hit a new level this year, im certain of it. he will demand the ball, and he will get it.

the next problem will be dealing with double teams. hes not used to that, due to bosh being around.

[appel]

you're forgetting help defense — bargnani just can't do that. he played as a SF throughout his formative years: while it means he has a bigger baggage of offensive skills, it also means he doesn't have the timing.

let's hope pianigiani works some magic: in the last three games with the NT I've seen him trying to actually play some help defense; his timing is slightly off, but when he starts reacting half a second earlier things will be way better. the problem is that so far nobody bothered to teach him, put him in a clearly defined defensive system and let him learn what to do, let him interiorize the timing. in the last four NBA seasons, he only played with the smitch (who changed an unholy amount of defensive strategies, including the dreaded "switch on everything that resembles a screen" matchup-zone which often left bargnani and bosh isolated at the top of the key…) and triano, whose track record so far is utterly mediocre.

meh.

I agree with the bolded, Pianigiani is a good coach, the best coach he had after Messina
2 months with a good coach can be priceless

Lol@ the Smitch's strategies ("switch on everything that resembles a screen"), this was true

[Kabookalu]

Is he really? From what I've seen he looks like a pretty poor coach. I've only seen the first half of the Bulgaria game but the team looked like a mess imho.

[appel]

Is he really? From what I've seen he looks like a pretty poor coach. I've only seen the first half of the Bulgaria game but the team looked like a mess imho.

Absolutely the best coach in Italy (Messina and Scariolo are not coaching here)
In last 4 years he won 4 championships
With >.80 of W
In first half agains Bulgaria the team play bad, we know
But only a team good coached can raise from -18 to +9 in 14 min

Now think this
Our NT was awful on both sides of the floor in the last 6 years
After 1 month we have a very good D and a more orgnized offense
Only in 1 month !

We lack on talented players (Gallinari first of all, but Cusin and Melli are injred) and we tryed to change something in the last game (Carraretto and Poeta are not on the bench, so we had Vitali and Cavaliero on the court). ANd Pianiggiani benched Aradori (one of our best scorers) after 3 min because he try to play out of the schemes. And Gigli (one of the starters) can't play in forth quarter (wrist)
Time of experiments, waiting the official games
But i can see a good coach and a very improved team

[Kabookalu]

So the only game of Italy I watched happened to be when they played really bad. Heh, that's pretty odd, I guess I'll watch another games of theirs then.

[strangespot]

Is he really? From what I've seen he looks like a pretty poor coach. I've only seen the first half of the Bulgaria game but the team looked like a mess imho.

Absolutely the best coach in Italy (Messina and Scariolo are not coaching here)
In last 4 years he won 4 championships
With >.80 of W
In first half agains Bulgaria the team play bad, we know
But only a team good coached can raise from -18 to +9 in 14 min

Now think this
Our NT was awesome on both sides of the floor in the last 6 years
After 1 month we have a very good D and a more orgnized offense
Only in 1 month !

We lack on talented players (Gallinari first of all, but Cusin and Melli are injred) and we tryed to change something in the last game (Carraretto and Poeta are not on the bench, so we had Vitali and Cavaliero on the court). ANd Pianiggiani benched Aradori (one of our best scorers) after 3 min because he try to play out of the schemes. And Gigli (one of the starters) can't play in forth quarter (wrist)
Time of experiments, waiting the official games
But i can see a good coach and a very improved team

I guess you meant awful there ?

[appel]

I guess you meant awful there ?

Fixed, thanks

p.s. Damn, one of next years i will begin to learn english

[Kurtz]

Back in the day, Antonio Davis, the PF who we forced into the C position kept talking about how you needed some bangers down low. That's why we got Oak, and with Davis/Oak banging down there, we had our best teams to date. Witness the best teams right now - Orlando, Boston, Lakers. Only one of them has a superstar C, but all 3 have bangers at the PF/C position.

As I was watching Demarcus Cousins play in the summer league...I can't help but drool at the thought of a banger like that anchoring the C spot.

We know Bargs won't become that banger, so the need then is to have his front-court partner be a banger. Had we drafted Blair, that would have been a good experiment. But so far, he's been with a finesse dude in Bosh, and Amir is a twig. Maybe ED Davis will bulk up and play the right way. Maybe Dorsey will get some burn.

[raptorsam]

Andrea needs to play beside someone who likes to mix it up..... It is really to bad the chandler deal did not fall through because that would have been a perfect match for him. He is a PF... he can dribble, shoot,drive, pull up. Sticking him on the block is a waste of his talents. I don't understand this fascination with forcing him to play center

[redred9]

Andrea's offence as a center is no problem. We would love him to post up more simply because it is a much higher percentage shot, would get him to the line occasionally, and he should be more than capable of it with his body/skill level. Having said that, a center doesn't HAVE to post up- you can post your guard or forwards while running the centre through the high post, especially if they can distribute the rock, there are lots of teams with different configurations. The Trailblazers of old would plant Sabonis at the top while posting JR RIder, Pippen, Bonzi Wells or whoever they happened to have at the time.

The problem is that defensively you NEED your center to be aware of everything going on defensively (as well as be able to take advantage of NBA help rules) so that they can position themselves between the basket and player every time down the floor- not necessarily his man but anyone holding the ball- the center needs to be ready to help especially because you've got such weak offensive threats at that spot, mostly they should be easy to cover and help off. In Bargnani world, getting him to understand this seems like pulling teeth. The most frustrating thing is that it's purely a mental thing with Andrea. He just does not get it. There's not much difference physically between Andrew Bogut and Andrea Bargnani (Bogut stronger, Bargs faster) but watching them play defence is night and day.

This is the most frustrating thing about Bargnani imo. Hopefully Ed Davis can help him out or it just comes with experience.

[PopAGat]

Center's play big like Perkins, Haywood, Noah though hes kind of a 4 also.
Bargnani isn't physical enough to be a C. Doesn't rebound that well either.

[J-Roc]

He needs to be the presence that closes off the paint. Right now, he's the guy. But he's not a guy who's going to take a charge, or slide over for help D. And do we really want him risking fouls?? So much easier for him if he could play with someone to handle all that work on the defensive end.

[Too Late Crew]

I have been watching the NBA since 1980 and Bargs is lkley the worst rebounding 30 mpg center I've ver seen. The guys that get made fun of for being poor rebounders? Eddy Curry Rik Smits types? Better rebounders than Bargs. Undersized 3 point shooting PF Matt Bonner playing center? Still a better rebounder than Bargs.

Centers need to rebound. They don't have to be the best on the team but Bargs is historically bad. You almost need to try to be that bad (and I won't waste more than this one sentance on how redicouls the whole "He boxes out so others can rebound argument is")

[appel]

I have been watching the NBA since 1980 and Bargs is lkley the worst rebounding 30 mpg center I've ver seen. The guys that get made fun of for being poor rebounders? Eddy Curry Rik Smits types? Better rebounders than Bargs. Undersized 3 point shooting PF Matt Bonner playing center? Still a better rebounder than Bargs.

Centers need to rebound. They don't have to be the best on the team but Bargs is historically bad. You almost need to try to be that bad (and I won't waste more than this one sentance on how redicouls the whole "He boxes out so others can rebound argument is")

Do you think he's really so bad? (i admit he must improve)
Ok, look at the stats then
http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Re ... ll%20Teams
He's #24 in DRPG
Bad? Not too much, 4.8 DRPG
Why? Look at the others
Dampier 4.9, Lopez 5.4 , Oden 5.4,Perkins 5.6,Bynum 5.6, Haywood 5.7
4.8 is so bad? -1 is so bad?
The tenth C (Okafor) grab 6.0 DRPG. It's so good compared to 4.8?

You can argue "but they played less minutes"
I can argue "Try to play every game +7-8 minutes, you will be a little tired"

[5DOM]

His rebounding is always going to suck, but he can still play the 5 (match up wise) because his man-to-man D is decent.

We just need a big man (4 or 5) next to him who complements him.

[jojo152433]

[quote="Kurtz"]Back in the day, Antonio Davis, the PF who we forced into the C position kept talking about how you needed some bangers down low. That's why we got Oak,
{/quote]

Your timing is off...Oak was here first. Without even referencing some website this is obvious because Oak played in the old old old school Raps jersey while AD never did. ADs first season was the season of our first true uniform change.

About the OPs long analysis...I don't think there is a singular definition of what any position is anymore. There used to be a difference between what a SG did and what an SF does. Nowadays the SFs are basically the same as SGs (role-wise) only slightly taller for potential defensive matchups.

I don't understand what all the hate on Bargs is to be honest. Considering he is really (as stated above somewhere) a really tall SF, I think he did rather well at the C despite his rebounding deficiencies. I think his average defense won't look so bad as this team evolves into a more capable defensive team.

[KG1585]

To me Centre is someone who can protect the paint and hide the deficiencies of the perimter players and generally make players think twice about driving to the basket, and also be an elite rebounder.