Andrea isn't a C - But what is a C?

[AH-1 Cobra]

Back when zone defense was not allowed in NBA, Andrea camping out at 3pt line can at least draw the big man guarding him further away from the basket. But with zone D, this wouldn't work at all.

Face it, banging bodies is not in his DNA. If we value his strength, then find someone else to cover his weakness.

as much as i don't like andrea's play, you're not gonna run into a zone on a nightly basis

that **** worked for college but even then only sometimes

I'm not talking about the effectiveness of zone D, no def system works all the time anyway.

My pt regarding this thread is Andrea is not a typical C. Bosh and Andrea's play are not compatible and expose Andrea's weakness more than working with his strength. Now that Bosh is gone, more offense can run through Andrea. How effective and efficient are still unknown. And we need smart tough defender to play with Andrea. Evens is tough but not smart. Rasho is smart but not quick enough. Amir has enough hustle but not smart enough to play team D effectively. May be that's why BC was trying so hard to get Barnes.

[AH-1 Cobra]

Back when zone defense was not allowed in NBA, Andrea camping out at 3pt line can at least draw the big man guarding him further away from the basket. But with zone D, this wouldn't work at all.

Face it, banging bodies is not in his DNA. If we value his strength, then find someone else to cover his weakness.

Exactly. But he's not the type of player that you build around. He's a complimentary piece. I think he'd be a 3rd big on a contending team, but a valuable one.

I actually like Bargnani. But his reluctance to get his nose dirty really puts a damper on things. And when you're not providing the things that are necessary for winning basketball games (low post offense, protecting the rim, rebounding) it puts things into perspective.

I agree he is not good enough to be the player you build around. He has too many weaknesses. But after VC and Bosh, i don't believe in building around one player anymore. After 15 yrs of watching Raps ball, the most enjoyable period was when we are playing team ball with healthy Garbo and younger Parker/Rasho while Bosh was injured. We were winning enough games back then to keep me happy.

[crosswalkryan]

Some people think he must be the best rebounder. WRONG !!!!
Example?
I think somebody remember Jabbar, he was one of the best C all-time
Look at his numbers in 1986/1987
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1987.html
He was the THIRD rebounder after Green and Magic
And he was Karim !! And they won the ring !!
He wasn't a good C?
The same in 1981/82, he was the second rebounder
Look at the Spurs 1998/99
Robinson was the C

LOL Kareem was 40!! and Robinson was 34!!

This argument is hilarious

[SDM]

LoL, "piss poor defender".. he wasn't at his exact peak last year, but this guy is known for his defense.. I know his offense is poor, but we have that in spades.

Not really. He comes from the Antoine Wright school of defense, which is an assumption that he can play defense because of his other skills (rebounding in Evans' case or "leadership" in Wright's) despite evidence that both are poor defenders.

[Jose_Matador]

Only on Real Gm do people try to justify Bargnani being a center when he rebounds at a worse rate than Eddy Curry and he is an average defender at best (the added quickness for being a center actually gives him an advantage, both on offense and defense)...

[Reignman]

LoL, "piss poor defender".. he wasn't at his exact peak last year, but this guy is known for his defense.. I know his offense is poor, but we have that in spades.

No, Evans is a great rebounder but sucks at defense. He cheats off his man to go for steals and has a bad habit of trying to trap the ball handler at random times.

His helter skelter style might throw off teams for a play or two but it puts our defense in dissarray and any smart offensive player would pick him apart.

Evans has been a sub par defender here in Toronto and in his time in Philly. I'm not sure about Seattle but I'm guessing it was more of the same.

Like the guy but if he's getting more than 10 mins on your team you're gonna have problems.

[Dr Positivity]

In before Harry Palmer!

[jojo152433]

LoL, "piss poor defender".. he wasn't at his exact peak last year, but this guy is known for his defense.. I know his offense is poor, but we have that in spades.

How old are you anyway? My grandma used to say that whenst drinking her tea and eating her crumpets.
---------------
Should we start a new thread about Reggie's D...looks like people feel quite passionately about it.

[jojo152433]

Some people think he must be the best rebounder. WRONG !!!!
Example?
I think somebody remember Jabbar, he was one of the best C all-time
Look at his numbers in 1986/1987
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1987.html
He was the THIRD rebounder after Green and Magic
And he was Karim !! And they won the ring !!
He wasn't a good C?
The same in 1981/82, he was the second rebounder
Look at the Spurs 1998/99
Robinson was the C

LOL Kareem was 40!! and Robinson was 34!!

This argument is hilarious

Honestly, I don't even know what his argument is. But if saying he (Jabbar) wasn't the best rebounder on the team means he wasn't a good rebounder, then that effectively means that there are only 30 good rebounders in the league at any given time.

What he forgot to mention was that AC Green was a phenomenal defensive player and rebounder and Magic also got a lot of boards primarily because he was half a foot (min) taller than the opposing PG who would have been boxing him out.

Jabbar could rebound, trust me.

[just23]

Just wondering why it's necessary to ask such an obvious question. We know what a center is and what he should do. Essentially all the things Andrea can't. Taking up space by staying around the key, contesting/changing shots, rebounding, banging with the other team's center, posting up and taking the majority of shot's from inside the key. I think the only reason people try and justify Andrea's shortcoming so much is because he was the number 1 pick that year and it's hard to accept that the only number 1 selection we've ever had hasn't worked out. It hasn't been a total failure, but it hasn't done anything to improve the team. Certainly not as much as one would hope. Andrea is a 6th man given a starter's job. It inflates his numbers and perhaps his ego, but it doesn't help him any, or the team. I don't hate the guy as some do. It's not his fault BC fell in love with him and selected him when nobody else would have. At some point this organization has to move on and either trade him or make him the first big off the bench. As for the argument that David Robinson and Kareem were not the best rebounders on their team.... How old were they then? They were at the tailend of their careers and could not be expected to dominate the boards anymore. Seriously, we all know what a center's duties should be on the court. Most can't perform all of them and that's fine, but a team's starting center should at least be competent in a few of those skills, so his teammates don't have too much slack to pick up.

[Double Helix]

I'm not here to defend Andrea but rather to summarize some of the key points that I think have made Andrea such a polarizing figure in Raptorland.

1) He's an extremely non-traditional big man with a game that's unconventional and lacking in a lot of areas that most people value in their centers. This is a fact. So, it's understandable why people would be so divided on him.

2) He's seen as too old to improve even though that was the argument with him after year 2 when everybody was down on him because of his regression and asking rhetorically to provide examples of players like him who've went from putting up 11 points per game as a rookie, down to 10, and then suddenly become a solid NBA scorer afterward (because they argued that was his only strength). He proved many wrong by improving, staying in the game longer by avoiding foul trouble, and ultimately reaching his per 36 minute totals over the course of close to 36 minutes which is ultimately the goal of the whole per 36 minute stat. People seemed to view this as a negative and as an example that he didn't actually improve for some reason when in reality reaching your per 36 minute totals actually indicates a certain level of consistency that many other players can't reach. If you look at per 36 minute totals around the NBA you'll see some startling numbers but most of those guys couldn't actually do those things over 36 minutes. Bargnani can, did, and will probably better those numbers this year at age 25.

3) As Raptors fans we've never drafted a work in progress center prospect and waited for him to develop before. The closest thing we've had to a project was arguably Tracy McGrady who was a high school phenom. He took 3 years to start showcasing what he would later become but it wasn't until year 4 when he was handed the keys that he really showed the league what he could do. Camby was only here for 2 years and he was more polished and traditional than Andrea was coming in. We shipped him out for veteran leadership because we weren't willing to wait to see what he might become. Basketball experts the world over know that it takes center prospects longer than any other position in basketball to develop to their fullest potential. Many centers don't reach their maximum potential until years 26-31. A lot of these guys hit their primes right in a contract year too between these ages and then get signed to deals that take them well past their primes. Meanwhile, we have Bargnani here right through those prime years and ending right at 29.

4) He was drafted first overall and regardless of the quality of an overall draft class first overall picks are always seen as franchise players so anything less than that ends with disappointment. The 2006 draft class was pretty bad and we all know it. The brightest stars from it aren't plentiful and the ones that do exist aren't shining THAT much brighter than Bargnani. He isn't the best player from his draft class but he isn't a Michael Oliwikandi, Kwame Brown, or Darko (2nd pick I know) sort of bust either. Expectations have been lowered due to the underwhelming draft class and that pisses some Bargnani haters off because they want him held to a higher standard.

5) He has very little injury history, doesn't wear any knee braces, and provides good value in the Reina index as far as production over the course of a year (Which takes games missed into consideration)

In closing, I think that RealGM as a whole contains some of the most passionate Raptor fans in the city so it's not surprising that Andrea has become this polarizing a figure but the average Raptor fan of the 20,000 or so who go the ACC night in and night out are pretty happy with him and interested in watching his continued maturity and progression as he enters his prime years. Most casual fans only know the names they see leading the box scores or the guys the news reports mention as the high scorer in the game and for an entire season... this year... that could be Andrea Bargnani. His profile in this city is going to go up as a result. There's still a very good chance that his contract with us becomes a solid bargain by the time it's all said and done and that he becomes one of the longest-serving, and most loyal Raptors players in the history of the franchise.

Rik Smits was a polarizing player in Indiana because he didn't have the longevity to stay on the court long enough to become as good as he could have been. Yao Ming has injury problems. Greg Oden does too. Big Z didn't provide his franchise with good value when he was younger due to a ton of injuries. Dominant bigs aren't easy to come by by and yet most teams still hold onto the ones they do have injuries and all. This guy is a long-term project and building block for the franchise. He's unconventional, foreign, and even at age 25... still developing. This is a make or break year for him. Let's see what happens and hope for the best.

[plainballing]

Well, the only thing I would concern is Bargs doesn't help on D enough. I have been constantly using the Wade example, where Wade zoom pass Bargs and Bargs notice after the fact [when Wade is up for the dunk]...

Chandler will not allow that, Dampier will not allow that...you get the point.

[Boogie!]

something that always bothers me when criticizing andrea is, "he's not playing in the post enough. omg i watched those italy games and he's still taking jumpshots." well **** yeah... bargnani should be adding to his game not freaking changing it completely just to satisfy the need for a "traditional post up center." he was drafted because of his multitude of skills, there's no reason he should eliminate them from his game.

he can shoot the 3, and he should keep shooting it when he's open. he can shoot off the dribble and drive by his man, so he should keep doing it. and he is making an effort to post up when he can. so what else are you expecting? people complain about his lack of improvement in his game... what else do you want him to add? there are centers out there who can ONLY play with their back to the basket. you want bargs to be like these guys? yet, he has developed a back to the basket game and has a face up game with it, yet this is somehow a problem? andrea should keep doing what he does because that's what gives him an advantage. what he really needs to improve on is consistency and conditioning which i think go hand in hand. bosh didn't have a back to the basket game at all, his entire game was drive or shoot the jumper. yet that's how he made his living because he was consistent. bargnani has an even greater array of scoring options, he just needs to be consistent.

[Reignman]

something that always bothers me when criticizing andrea is, "he's not playing in the post enough. omg i watched those italy games and he's still taking jumpshots." well **** yeah... bargnani should be adding to his game not freaking changing it completely just to satisfy the need for a "traditional post up center." he was drafted because of his multitude of skills, there's no reason he should eliminate them from his game.

he can shoot the 3, and he should keep shooting it when he's open. he can shoot off the dribble and drive by his man, so he should keep doing it. and he is making an effort to post up when he can. so what else are you expecting? people complain about his lack of improvement in his game... what else do you want him to add? there are centers out there who can ONLY play with their back to the basket. you want bargs to be like these guys? yet, he has developed a back to the basket game and has a face up game with it, yet this is somehow a problem? andrea should keep doing what he does because that's what gives him an advantage. what he really needs to improve on is consistency and conditioning which i think go hand in hand. bosh didn't have a back to the basket game at all, his entire game was drive or shoot the jumper. yet that's how he made his living because he was consistent. bargnani has an even greater array of scoring options, he just needs to be consistent.

I think most of the concerns stem from the other side of the ball. At least it does for me.

[Double Helix]

That's a good point, Boogie. I wonder if Detroit fans ever got bored of Rip Hamilton at a certain age and started saying, "All he ever does is run through screens and shoot mid-range shots. When is he ever going to start getting to the net the way Kobe does?" When Shaq was pretty much getting by exclusively on playing directly around the basket were people saying, "I'm so bored of Shaq always near the net and dunking all the time. He needs to step back and take more jump shots."

Obviously, Shaq and Rip are far more dominant than Andrea Bargnani but the point is: Every above average scorer has SOMETHING to his game that got him to the league in the first place (whether it's a 3 point shot, blow by speed, dunking abilty in traffic, a killer crossover, whatever) and whatever that thing is will always be their fallback and go-to when it comes right down to it.

Only the great, great ones have more than a few go-to moves or spots on the court that they can score consistently with.

5 on 5 games with national pride on the line are a tough place to start working on new areas of your game. You work on those things in practice first and then practice dominance becomes natural and you start attempting them in real games later.

[appel]

Ofcourse. You don't think Bargnani's team high 38 mins per game while playing abysmal help D and providing barely any help as a rebounder as our starting C didn't impact our win/loss record?

And you say you've watched basketball for 40 years, you sure about that?

I think you've some problem (the fiorst is your knowledge of the game)

A) ACTUALLY Bargs is our defensive C.
ACTUALLY !!
When he was drafted he've never played C

B) About his D.
Yes, i know his help-D must improve.
I know, you know, he admit
Well, was this the reason for our bad D ?
Now tell me who can take HIS man last year?
Bosh? Jose'? DD? JJ?
But naturally the problem was the help -D
Somebody refuse to defend (or is unable to defend) and obviously was a Bargs error

C) Bargs was a bad first pick?
He was error? Maybe (atually i prefer ehe was drafted from another team)
But i think he must be one of the first 3 picks anyway
Was your error? Maybe
But you're searching a bigman
If you don't pick Bargs you will pick for sure LMA (and that was the Bosh's desire too) in best case
Worst case Shelden Williams, NEVER Roy!
What happen if you pick LMA?
After 2 year somebody (bosh or LMA) must be traded because that frontline (Bosh-LMA) can't defend on my bigfather and my bigmother (not the best frontline of my family)




Bye guy
i let you with your "Young gunz" and i hope Bargs will be traded
As i told " a lot of Raptors (and you're one of this) deserve a lot of 30-52 seasons"

P.s You' ve never had 4 seasons in a row with 160+ W
You had 160+ with Bargs and now you told "Bargs is a big reason our record has been this poor"
You're a very poor fan
Now, mod, ban me

[appel]

Some people think he must be the best rebounder. WRONG !!!!
Example?
I think somebody remember Jabbar, he was one of the best C all-time
Look at his numbers in 1986/1987
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1987.html
He was the THIRD rebounder after Green and Magic
And he was Karim !! And they won the ring !!
He wasn't a good C?
The same in 1981/82, he was the second rebounder
Look at the Spurs 1998/99
Robinson was the C

LOL Kareem was 40!! and Robinson was 34!!



This argument is hilarious

You don't take the point
The teams won a ring with a C that don't take so much rebounds

[dillio]

C) Bargs was a bad first pick?
He was error? Maybe (atually i prefer ehe was drafted from another team)
But i think he must be one of the first 3 picks anyway
Was your error? Maybe
But you're searching a bigman
If you don't pick Bargs you will pick for sure LMA (and that was the Bosh's desire too) in best case
Worst case Shelden Williams, NEVER Roy!
What happen if you pick LMA?
After 2 year somebody (bosh or LMA) must be traded because that frontline (Bosh-LMA) can't defend on my bigfather and my bigmother (not the best frontline of my family)

If we had picked Rudy Gay instead of Bargs we would've been a perennial playoff team.

[dillio]

Some people think he must be the best rebounder. WRONG !!!!
Example?
I think somebody remember Jabbar, he was one of the best C all-time
Look at his numbers in 1986/1987
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1987.html
He was the THIRD rebounder after Green and Magic
And he was Karim !! And they won the ring !!
He wasn't a good C?
The same in 1981/82, he was the second rebounder
Look at the Spurs 1998/99
Robinson was the C

LOL Kareem was 40!! and Robinson was 34!!



This argument is hilarious

You don't take the point
The teams won a ring with a C that don't take so much rebounds

You didn't take HIS point. Kareem is the 3rd leading rebounder in NBA history. You're nuts.

[Truthrising]

C) Bargs was a bad first pick?
He was error? Maybe (atually i prefer ehe was drafted from another team)
But i think he must be one of the first 3 picks anyway
Was your error? Maybe
But you're searching a bigman
If you don't pick Bargs you will pick for sure LMA (and that was the Bosh's desire too) in best case
Worst case Shelden Williams, NEVER Roy!
What happen if you pick LMA?
After 2 year somebody (bosh or LMA) must be traded because that frontline (Bosh-LMA) can't defend on my bigfather and my bigmother (not the best frontline of my family)

If we had picked Rudy Gay instead of Bargs we would've been a perennial playoff team.

Rudy Gay's garbage, he doesn't even rebound the ball better than Bargs and you guys are complaining that Bargs doesn't rebound hes also a crappy shot blocker and his 3 point efficiency isn't any better, to be honest we haven't seen Barg's potential yet so I don't how you can already come to the conclusion that gay would be better.