Revamping the bench behind the core

td00 · Post #1 » by **td00** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:34 pm

Trying to look on the positive and cheap side to improve our roster......

I know we have enough assets to get these 2 guys but how much would it take:

1) DeAndre Jordan

2) Brandon Bass

Jordan still playing behind Kaman, but I think he has a nice game. Bass is looking for minutes and won't get any in Orlando. A combination of Zaza/Marvin/Bibby should provide enough to bring these 2 guys in....our bench would improve quickly. I think Bass could play the 3 if needed. We need a defensive presence on this team. Bass was an excellent guy at LSU.

JC1/JC2/Bass/Jordan/Evans and we need a backup PG if we move Bibby.

If Shaq still is an option, there is still a logjam at PF. We have good assets but it doesn't appear we are trying to get bigger/thicker.

parson · Post #2 » by **parson** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:53 pm

I think you have a good eye but the message boards of those teams tell me that they'd never allow them to go cheaply, especially Jordan.

parson · Post #3 » by **parson** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:10 pm

Sorry, didn't see Marvelous in there. He's too good for Jordan or Bass, plus we'd lose our only true SF for a backup.

And don't tell me Smoove can play the 3.

azuresou1 · Post #4 » by **azuresou1** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:10 pm

Bass can't play the 3 in any capacity.

azuresou1 · Post #5 » by **azuresou1** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:12 pm

parson wrote:Sorry, didn't see Marvelous in there. He's too good for Jordan or Bass, plus we'd lose our only true SF for a backup.

And don't tell me Smoove can play the 3.

I have no problem with running Smoove at the 3 in a limited capacity... but for extended minutes? If we do that we better be picking up a Okur or cyborg Sabonis.

evildallas · Post #6 » by **evildallas** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:52 pm

If the concept is to revamp the bench behind the core it only requires smarter drafting and spending more to fill out a quality roster. I'd also caution against overspending against production on several starting positions but it is too late for that.

Jettisoning a starter for more bench talent now only works if you have a plan to spend to replace that starter.

By the way we could have had Brandon Bass or 8 other very productive NBA players the year we selected Salim Stoudamire (a 6'0" tall shooting guard who never demonstrated PG skills in college) with the 1st pick in the 2nd round. I don't know what's worse as a strategy, the drafting players in the 2nd round to try to convert their position or the drafting really raw International players who are likely to never wear a Hawks uniform?

parson · Post #7 » by **parson** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:22 pm

^You bring up a great point -- and one's that's been made for the last 30 years about the Hawks, namely the poor scouting. We simply don't draft well.

Do we even have scouts? Or does the GM double as the only scout?

td00 · Post #8 » by **td00** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:09 pm

Again, I am looking at cheap ways to revamp the lineup and the bench.

Bass IMO is underrated and I do think he can help at the 3....at least as much as Smoove.

My thought was Bass gives us depth and it also gives us a shot at putting JJ and JC1 on the floor together in key situations. If we aren't going to get Shaq, and I still hope there is a cracked door open to that option, we still need depth on the interior. I know what I am getting from Zaza and have no trouble moving his 4M to another city.

Jordan is simply going to get better and we could bring him in for a 1 year run to see if he does in fact help us. We gain something by moving Marvin and still save $$.

Our 3 is the easiest position to replace IMO. I would prefer a defender over offense. Perhaps Damion James would have fit our current roster better?

I agree with you ED; our drafting prowess has to be in question. We would rather take long range chances than getting help for our bench now.

D21 · Post #9 » by **D21** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:12 pm

parson wrote:Do we even have scouts? Or does the GM double as the only scout?

Full-Time Scouts:
Greg Ballard
Lojze Milosavljevic (the one who found Pape Sy while scouting another player from his team)

International Scouts:
Mark Crow
Ron Meikle

td00 · Post #10 » by **td00** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:15 pm

parson wrote:Sorry, didn't see Marvelous in there. He's too good for Jordan or Bass, plus we'd lose our only true SF for a backup.

And don't tell me Smoove can play the 3.

Man, would I love to know the worth of Marvin to other teams. What we have seen is what we will get because he is very consistent.

I just think we need to improve in other areas whether it costs us the 20th best SF in the league or not.

azuresou1 · Post #11 » by **azuresou1** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:19 pm

Marvin is consistent? In what universe?

D21 · Post #12 » by **D21** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:24 pm

td00 wrote:
parson wrote:Sorry, didn't see Marvelous in there. He's too good for Jordan or Bass, plus we'd lose our only true SF for a backup.

And don't tell me Smoove can play the 3.

Man, would I love to know the worth of Marvin to other teams.

Marvin is one of the few guy picked high in the draft and who came in a team where the main role were given to other players.
It did not help him to develop, and that's why we can't know what he can really do.

He would have been in a team like SAC instead of Kevin Martin, with the main role in a rebuilding team, he would certainly have already average more than 20ppg.
So if he goes in a team where their system need a very active SF, he can have more value than in a team like ATL where SF was the last spot with nearly no plays for.

Sure Marvin is a disappointment for a 2nd pick, but Woodson kills a big part of his potential.
The owners too, because it would be better to allow first your young guys to play and get responsibilities, then add a veteran to lead them.
ATL did the other way, bringing Joe and giving him all and ISO for him, before the young guys got developed.

Signing Joe if it was for that Woodson use of him, was a big problem for Marvin.

evildallas · Post #13 » by **evildallas** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:27 pm

I had a whole section on how the Hawks screwed up by not trading Al Harrington when they drafted Marvin Williams. It was two-fold, not getting enough for Harrington and slowing the development of Marvin. They also failed to act when they knew they could not sign both Childress and Williams long-term. I erased it all as being rehash.

BTW, it's not just scouting and quality drafting, it is a philosophy. They don't value 2nd round picks like some other clubs and haven't during the entire ownership stint of the ASG. It reminds me of Robert Sarver in Phoenix who would sell late to mid first round picks rather than fill the end of the bench with prospects. They would instead hire Eric Piatkowski or Sean Marks for those roles under the guise of veteran help, but you wind up never developing a bench and never getting over the top. Selling the 31st pick instead of choosing any one of the available prospect bigs and then possibly resigning Jason Collins is exactly that type of behavior.

FCNATL85 · Post #14 » by **FCNATL85** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:46 pm

And then as you mentioned eralier they pile up the foreign legion of 2nd pick with Sy, Gladyr, Akyol or even Digbeu...not to mention Anderson who played in the NBA but not for us!!!
This is painful to support such a team.

td00 · Post #15 » by **td00** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:02 pm

Our 2nd round is like our own NBDL....guys who never seem to be able to take a roster spot and definitely will not make our rotation. I definitely don't want to have another David Andersen type watch going forward.
Their strategy sure doesn't equate to a deep home grown bench.
Our strategy continues to be cap restrictive until they prove otherwise.

niffoc4 · Post #16 » by **niffoc4** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:09 am

It seems to me like the Hawks do not believe in using 2nd round picks on players that will be on their bench, but would rather use them on prospects to hold overseas... which would be fine if they ever brought the good ones (namely Andersen) over. Or they could use undrafted FA's... but they don't really seem to like those either.

I wish they had a dedicated NBDL team that they used like San Antonio and the Lakers, then they would have a pool of prospects that knew the system, and they could send rookies there knowing it would be constructive... oh well

td00 · Post #17 » by **td00** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:57 am

That dedicated NBDL team costs money. That's not something I would think the ASG has any interest in with all their $$ devoted to the Thrashers and Hawks.

BTW, did they ever replace Bernie Mullen?

perthwildcat · Post #18 » by **perthwildcat** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:40 am

A good bench has been greatly devalued the last few years...

I think the teams with the best 5 guys win championships... Like the Lakers and Celtics the last few years have had killer main guys and 1 or 2 key guys off the bench..

They might not have the depth for the regular season but as long as they can keep all guys on the floor for the finals (Kendrick Perkins injury) they should be Ok.