Retro POY '79-80 (Voting Complete)

[Sedale Threatt]

I dig your avatar, BTW. Hippos fascinate me.

[ThaRegul8r]

Just felt like posting this about Game 5 of the Western Conference Finals against the Seattle SuperSonics, LA won 111-105 to advance to the NBA Finals, led by Kareem, who had 38 points, 11 rebounds, six assists and seven blocked shots.

“From the beginning, Kareem decided this was the Lakers’ season, and he has single-handedly led us that way,” said Laker coach Paul Westhead. “If you’re a fast-break team, falling behind is not a threat. If we can get it close, the man (Abdul-Jabbar) takes over."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=WY ... 6738,50368

Game 4 of WCF:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Q3 ... 73,5441235

Game 3 of WCF:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=xe ... 57,3920928

Game 1 of WCF:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-h ... 06,6311373

Game 5 of Western Conference Semifinals:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=RE ... 14,3108177

Game 1 of WCSF:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=i4 ... 51,2323575

Article on 76ers before NBA Finals
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5e ... 09,2045812

After Game 1 of NBA Finals:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Vo ... 08,1449553

[ThaRegul8r]

Article after Game 2 of NBA Finals:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=SZ ... 25,1858277

Game 5 of the NBA Finals:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=rK ... 12,4156024

Afterwards:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=4a ... 721,406971
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=MN ... 088,115082

And after Game 6:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Md ... 504,450821
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Wo ... 23,3649340

[ThaRegul8r]

I'll put the Eastern Conference Finals here:

Game 1 - Philadelphia 96, Boston 93

Julius Erving: 29 points

Game 2 - Boston 96, Philadelphia 90

Larry Bird: 31 points

Game 3 - Philadelphia 99, Boston 97
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Jz ... 61,5886026

Julius Erving: 28 points, 22 in the second half, 11 rebounds, seven assists and five steals
Larry Bird: 22 points, game-high 21 rebounds, four assists, three of four three-point field-goal attempts

Game 4 - Philadelphia 102, Boston 90
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=72 ... 20,3833509

Julius Erving: 30 points, 12 in the third quarter
Larry Bird: 19 points, 6-15 FG

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Az ... 71,6378036

Game 5 - Philadelphia 105, Boston 94
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=D4 ... 78,2723137

Julius Erving: 14 points, 4-10 FG, "concentrat[ing] on defense and setting up teammates."
"Boston never could generate any momentum in Sunday's game, and one reason was Larry Bird. The rookie scored only 12 points and sank just five of 19 field-goal attempts."

Dr. J March Player of the Month:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=rt ... 20,2592796

[Optimism Prime]

My probably final rankings:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Julius Erving
3. Moses Malone
4. Larry Bird
5. George Gervin

HM: Magic Johnson

[ElGee]

I'll put the Eastern Conference Finals here:

Game 1 - Philadelphia 96, Boston 93

Julius Erving: 29 points

Game 2 - Boston 96, Philadelphia 90

Larry Bird: 31 points

Game 3 - Philadelphia 99, Boston 97
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Jz ... 61,5886026

Julius Erving: 28 points, 22 in the second half, 11 rebounds, seven assists and five steals
Larry Bird: 22 points, game-high 21 rebounds, four assists, three of four three-point field-goal attempts

Game 4 - Philadelphia 102, Boston 90
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=72 ... 20,3833509

Julius Erving: 30 points, 12 in the third quarter
Larry Bird: 19 points, 6-15 FG

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Az ... 71,6378036

Game 5 - Philadelphia 105, Boston 94
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=D4 ... 78,2723137

Julius Erving: 14 points, 4-10 FG, "concentrat[ing] on defense and setting up teammates."
"Boston never could generate any momentum in Sunday's game, and one reason was Larry Bird. The rookie scored only 12 points and sank just five of 19 field-goal attempts."

Dr. J March Player of the Month:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=rt ... 20,2592796

Thanks! These are awesome. Keep them coming in the following years

Bird openly admitted he was exhausted after game 3. He was averaging 23 a game on 54% FG shooting in the playoffs before game 4...

[Doctor MJ]

Aight will be out of town starting today through the weekend. Won't affect my administration of the project dramatically, but I don't expect to contribute much.

Great conversations in this thread.

Probably my final vote:

1. Kareem
2. Julius
3. Bird
4. Magic
5. Moses

Going with Bird over Magic with some reluctance.. Also not totally comfortable with where I have Moses.

[ronnymac2]

I've thought a little more, and I'm putting Jabbar first. It's a combination of Kareem being the best player in the league and winning tiebreakers that provide a buffer for that game missed. I probably made a mistake last time punishing Magic so much. I won't do that here.

Erving is getting second place. Very complete season. I'm treating him as a champion this year.

I'm leaning towards Moses next. The other contenders are Gervin, Bird, and Magic. Fittingly, Magic and Bird are so close to each other that they won't be seperated by anybody else.

[ElGee]

Wanted to watch G5 before I weighed in one last time on Magic and The Finals, and thanks to the expanded schedule I've been able to.

While Kareem had a fantastic offense game, his defense suffered after the first quarter. In the opening frame he was extremely active, blocking shots and jumping over on help/drives. The effort wanes in the next 15 minute or so on the defensive end, and in the 4th quarter (post ankle sprain) he's limited for obvious reasons. Erving actually has the best all around game; He's really active defensively, blocking shots at the rim, 4 steals, 6 assists, draws 10 fouls, only 2 turnovers (Kareem had 5). Doc with 16 in the 4th quarter, including a number of dazzling shots.

Magic has his worst game of the series. It's actually just a really awful game. (Maybe he should moved down because of it -- you know, can't have a bad Game 5 ) 4-13 shooting and 10 turnovers. This is also a great tangible example of LA's assist inflation. After my last post, I thought I'd track assists for this game and found 7 clear assists and 2 borderline ones that seemed like they would be awarded in most arenas (an entry pass to Kareem, who dribbled, faked, then came back to sky hook, and an outlet pass off a turnover to Nixon who took a dribble or two, surveyed the fastbreak, and pulled up for a banker). Yet the box score has 10 assists? I have no clue where the extra one would be, even debatably.

Anyway, I'm assuming we've all seen game 6. Here are Magic's pace-adjusted stats before G6, excluding G4 (only because I haven't seen it), compared to his RS stats:

Code: Select all

                 FG-FGA    FT-FTA      Reb   Ast   St   TO    BS
4 Finals Games   4.9-9.6   2.8-3.4     6.4   7.7   2.1   4.7  0.0
Regular Season   6.2-11.7  4.7-5.7     5.3   7.0   2.3   3.8  0.5


In other words, outside of the increased turnovers, his box numbers are extremely similar to his RS averages. What I glean from that:

(1) Magic wasn't close to being the MVP of that series after 5 games. He played well in G1 and G4 (statistically), although I've never seen G4. He did turn it over on the last play of that game. G2 was average, G3 below average and G5 was bad.

(2) It's going to be hard for me to justify placing Magic over the big hitters based on what they did on the court all season.

I'm giving him a boost for improved performance in the postseason and his Finals G6, but I think, like many others, that still leaves him somewhere in the Moses/Gervin group. It's tempting to disregard Ice (3rd in MVP voting) because he was one-dimensional and probably cared more about his numbers than he should have for someone like Magic who would ultimately redefine the PG position. I'm just not sure it's "correct," at least based on past criteria for this project.

(FOLLOW UP: Gervin went for 19, 44 (including a bunch of key points late) and 37 in the mini-series against Houston. Houston coach Del Harris called G2 a "win for George Gervin." I'd also like to thank the Sarasota Herald-Tribune for providing the number of FGs, FTs and FTA's in their box, but not FGAs. Brilliant.

Also found an interesting sidebar on coach Eddie Sutton using a "scoring efficiency system" which calculates points per shot. "There are other systems, but I don't know of anybody else who does this," Sutton said. Take that, Doug Collins.)

[ThaRegul8r]

Magic has his worst game of the series. It's actually just a really awful game. (Maybe he should moved down because of it -- you know, can't have a bad Game 5 ) 4-13 shooting and 10 turnovers.

That set an NBA record for most turnovers in a NBA Finals game, and his 30 turnovers overall set a record for a six-game series.

[ElGee]

OK, playing with Google News is too much fun. In finding old articles, one is likely to stumble upon this mug shot: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=g8 ... bird&hl=en

Here's a column from an AP writer: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=c8 ... bird&hl=en

In Boston, the key man in the Celtics' remarkable turnaround has been Larry Bird. His passing game helped the Celtics more than double last year's 29 victories...While his scoring and rebounding certainly helped, the attitude he instilled was the most vital factorin the Celtics' renaissance.

A vote for either Erving or Bird would certainly be reasonable. But this vote goes to Kareem...

The Rookie of the Year also has three top candidates -- Bird, Johnson and center Bill Cartwright...Bird should win, on the theory that while the Lakers already were a very good team before Magic arrived on the scene, the Celtics were awful the last two years...

The league's all-star team? Abdul-Jabbar at ceter is easy, and so are Bird and Erving at the forward spots (sorry, Marques Johnson). The guard positions are tougher, but the votes here go to George Gervin, because you can't ignore a three-time scoring champion, and Gus Williams of Seattle, because he had a great all-around season.

ROY Voting was 63 votes for Bird, 3 for Magic (doesn't say if it was the 3 LA writers on the panel). Also calls Magic's playoffs "brilliant." http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Br ... bird&hl=en

[TrueLAfan]

Okay, I've settled my last two.

1. Kareem
2. Erving
3. Bird
4. Gervin. Yes, he's pretty much a one dimensional player. But that one dimension—offense--is important. I say “offense” rather than “scoring” because Gervin got his points in the flow of an offense. James “Captain Late” Silas was a shadow of his former self, but having Gervin alongside allowed Silas to have a good to very good year. Same with Larry Kenon. Basically, it came down to this for me; Gervin and Moses are one-dimensional players this year. IMO, Gervin had slightly lesser teammates and got his team to the same season record. The Rockets beat the Spurs in the playoffs...but Gervin had a better series than Moses. I have to go with Gervin over Moses.
5. Magic. I've let others convince me here...not that I needed a lot of convincing, as Magic Johnson is my favorite player. It's between Magic and Marques Johnson. Marques had the better RS numbers. Magic has the intangibles. I'll go with intangibles here.

HM:
Marques Johnson. He really was great this year.
Moses Malone. No slight in being number 7. I just can't ignore his flaws and their impact on his team.

[Dezmondballins3]

1. Kareem
2. Magic

[ThaRegul8r]

1. Kareem
2. Magic

Magic over Erving for the whole year?

[Optimism Prime]

Just to make things easier for Doctor MJ, can non-voting members not post their votes here?

[ThaRegul8r]

Just to make things easier for Doctor MJ, can non-voting members not post their votes here?

That's why I've joined in the conversation, but haven't listed my ballot since I'm not actually officially on the list. I just wanted to be a part of the discussion, because I usually miss these kind of things here.

[Doctor MJ]

Hey fellas,

Welcome internet access is going to be a bit rougher than I thought while I'm away. I've started the next thread, but I may not be able to tally this one up before Sunday night.

Cheers,
Doc

[Sedale Threatt]

Basically, it came down to this for me; Gervin and Moses are one-dimensional players this year.

Wouldn't Moses be more two-dimensional -- scoring and rebounding?

[TrueLAfan]

Basically, it came down to this for me; Gervin and Moses are one-dimensional players this year.

Wouldn't Moses be more two-dimensional -- scoring and rebounding?

No--not in my opinion. Moses got a significant amount of his points off his offensive rebounding and resulting shots and free throws. He wasn't a guy you could build an offense around. He had hands of stone. He was a poor passer. His range was not great, and was almost non-existant prior to about 1981. I don't know what percentage of his points came off of putbacks on offensive rebounds and fouls when he got the ball (often by rebound) near the basket, but it's got to be extraordinary.

In a sense, that's a good thing. Moses was a garbageman; he cleaned up after other people's mistakes. But that's why I drew a distinction between "offense" and "scoring." Some people, because of the way they get their points, are not conducive to working within an offensive scheme. Moses is one of them. I think his offensive and rebounding are tied together.

[lorak]

1. KAJ
2. Dr J
3. Bird
4. Moses
5. Magic