Do we really need a superstar?

[ball teacher]

We've heard the rumors about possible deals being made to get CP3 here with or without Melo, and how we'd have to give up Wallace to make the deal. A lineup featuring.......
PG Paul
SG Jax
SF Melo
PF Tyrus
C Okafor
..... looks good on paper, but you never really know how the guys will do as a team. I think the Bobcats have a good core with Wallace, Jax, and Tyrus. The team doesn't need a major overhaul, or major signings to get them to the next level. They just need to bring in quality players to help the core guys get it done. Right now it seems like Jordan's hands are all over this because it's a gamble that's being made, all or nothing like he's trying to go for the homerun instead of getting a nice base hit. This team could be pieced together like the Detroit Piston team that beat the Lakers in the finals a few years ago. They had a team full of good players who knew their roles and played as a unit and they had that great team defense. Charlotte is almost there. We need a good point guard, not a great one just a good player. Calderon would have been fine with me, Livingston if he can stay healthy would be a nice pick, now we need a center, and Emeka Okafor won't cut it. We already lost Chandler, and Theo without knowing who the replacement would be, and IMO if we gambled them away for the chance to get Paul and we don't get him then we lost that deal. Chandler is now a Mav and Theo is with the Lakers, go figure. We've all discussed this topic of who should come and who shouldn't, I just wanted to express my views again that this team was good last year and just need a few adjustments to be even better. Swapping good players for good players does nothing but keep you at the same position we previously were.

[Bassman]

The lineup you mentioned would be awesome. Could we win a championship with that? Who know? But we would be competitive and in the hunt for sure. Superstars are deemed such because they deliver big almost every night, and especially in the playoffs, where the game grinds into intense matchups. Superstars can become nearly unstoppable, and that's critical in a 7 game series, because very good defensive teams will shut you down if you're a 1 or 2 trick pony.

A team game concept worked once for Detroit. I like the idea of team basketball, but you've still got to have at least 2 key guys who can deliver every night. I love Crash and Jax, but neither meets the criteria listed above. On a given night...sure, but not almost every game.

Indeed, we need a VERY good PG, and a VERY good C right now. I doubt we get either, so I'm hoping we can deal for pretty good and promising.

[ball teacher]

The lineup you mentioned would be awesome. Could we win a championship with that? Who know? But we would be competitive and in the hunt for sure. Superstars are deemed such because they deliver big almost every night, and especially in the playoffs, where the game grinds into intense matchups. Superstars can become nearly unstoppable, and that's critical in a 7 game series, because very good defensive teams will shut you down if you're a 1 or 2 trick pony.

A team game concept worked once for Detroit. I like the idea of team basketball, but you've still got to have at least 2 key guys who can deliver every night. I love Crash and Jax, but neither meets the criteria listed above. On a given night...sure, but not almost every game.

Indeed, we need a VERY good PG, and a VERY good C right now. I doubt we get either, so I'm hoping we can deal for pretty good and promising.

I think there are benefits to having a superstar. You get ticket sales, you get exposure, maybe more wins than you would without them. My thing is I thihnk the core group is good, we can bring in a good point guard that can get some buckets, or a big who can deliver when we need and we become as god as any team in the league. Houston Rockets won two championships with 1 great player surrounded by good players that had specific roles. I agree with what you said about Crash and Wallace though, which is why I though Calderon would have been a great fit, but it's all just opinion. Our three core players together make a exciting, tough, defensive high energy trio. Even fans from the Mimai Heat board made comments about these guys being the only ones who can really make Wade and Lebron work harder than normal. I hope Wallace isn't dealt but if Paul and Melo are brought, I guess it's a good deal.

[Paydro70]

Say what? That lineup would be incredible, we would be contenders for sure.

I don't know how you could think we only need small tweaks, we got swept out of the first round. Without a significant lineup change, the team is never going to be more than that. There is a very good chance that we are worse this year, maybe not even a playoff team, and without gaining new flexibility with our cap. If there is a deal to get a superstar, you have to do it regardless of cost.

If your goal is to win a title, superstars are not optional. Besides the 04 Pistons, no team has won without a HOF player playing at HOF level (Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Jordan, Wade, Magic, Bird, KG, Isaiah...).

[dropshot001]

i don't think that a team has ever won a championship without having a true superstar.

[fatlever]

i don't think that a team has ever won a championship without having a true superstar.

going back to 1975 - around the time when aba/nba merged to form the league as we know it today

as paydro said, you have to have a HOF player playing at MVP type level to win a ring.

the teams that won w/out an HOF player playing at an MVP level that season

2004 pistons - best player: billups? hamilton? wallacex2? ben wallace finished 7th in mvp voting. ben wallace made 2nd team all-nba.

1979* supersonics - best player: dennis johnson? gus williams? jack sikma? - sikma finished 7th in mvp voting. no players made 1st or 2nd team all-nba. this was a solid team that made it to 2 finals in 2 years, but there were no real stars on the team.

1978* bullets - elvin hayes? wes unseld? bob dandridge? - this team did not have a single player finish in the top 10 in MVP voting. no players made 1st or 2nd team all-nba. hayes has always been an overrated star and '78 was a down year for him towards the end of his peak.

* as bill simmons likes to point out in his book 75-79 was the craziest stretch in the nba. the influx of aba players, the new aba style mixing with the old nba style and the massive cocaine problem made for an insane and mostly crappy stretch of the nba where no stars really dominated the game. the biggest stars during this era were kareem and dr j and both were pretty much stuck on bad teams during this 5 year period.

all other teams had a clear superstar/alpha dog playing at an MVP level the year they won:
jordan
bird
magic
kareem
olajuwon
duncan
isiah
kobe
garnett
walton
moses malone
cowens
barry
shaq
wade

[Bassman]

Exactly Fats. This league requires having stars to win playoff and championship series.

interesting article I caught late from Charlie Rosen at Fox Sports. He's answering questions, and the first one relates the problems he see's with the whole "players taking over" mentality:
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/Miami-Heat-super-team-failure-would-be-good-for-the-NBA

Essentially he says this is bad news for the league, and this is written on july 20th, before the news was breaking about CP3.

[ohara]

We need more than just building around Crash and Jax. I dont put TT in their category just yet. But adding some avg good players to Crash and Jax wont do it. We need someone whom the rest of the league agrees is a high caliber player. Someone who is not only at the level of Crash and Jax, but a step up. Then, you add Crash and Jax to THAT person. Then, with TT and a good bench, then you're cooking with gas. We finally made the Playoffs. Next step, winning a series and advancing.

[ball teacher]

I think these are valid points, I will say that when Boston won the championship Garnett wasn't playing at a superstar level. He was still very good, but he wasn't a superster like when he was in his prime. Detroit really didn't have a star, and Hakeem with Houston was great, but I think him winning made his reputation even greater. Also, if you look at Jordan's run with the Bulls, they had the same core guys from when Detroit used to beat them until they won the first ring. Charlotte has a great core, the team's problem vs Orlando was the PG spot the C spot and we needed a 3rd scorer. We found or third scorer in game 4 which was too late, but we didn't get much help elsewhere. So instead of breaking up the core who really did their job well, why not just address the needs of post scoring, and upgrade the point guard role. Even though we got swept by Orlando we still gave them a tough fight. A couple of that series games we lost in the last few minutes. Jax and Crash are as studly as me on the perimeter and they compliment each other well, all they need is a scorer inside and I think this team will get to the eastern conference, at least.

[August Us Seazr]

Many of the core guys on the team last year were getting their FIRST experience on a playoff team. As in "no place to go but up" FIRST experience.

We got valuable lessons for team building... Raymond Felton could finally get us TO the playoffs, but ran out of gas when the starting flag waved on the playoffs. The center position was (and has for SIX YEARS been a HOT MESS!) found lacking as well. Once we can establish TT as the go-to 4, it gets some easier. But at this point, we may have to choose whether we improve at center, or at point. That would be a tough decision for Jordan and the brain-trust to make. Either position is make or break. My thinking is this... We have to be patient on the last piece of the puzzle, whether it is the center or point position. Haste makes what we have experienced the last several years. Prudence might make for a serious run in the playoffs.

We need to hoard those two draft picks we have in 2011 and not let LB mortgage this team's future to get a 6 seed instead of an 8 seed (if we are talking playoffs at all!) With the crew we should have going into 2010-11, we need to look at the upcoming season as a "pour the foundation" time. Get good players, pay them RIGHT, teach them RIGHT, be patient, and watch our team move up the standings!

Postscript- LB will be constantly teaching new guys the right way to play as long as we trade away the guys he taught to play the right way last year. Claw on 'Cats!

[Badd_Intentions]

If we plan on being in the upper tier of the Eastern conference the answer is YES. If you think a core of Crash/Jax plus other good players are going to get it then you are dreaming. I agree with having a team based structure but then team still needs to be built around 1 or 2 star players and neither Crash nor Jax are "star" players. They are very good players, but not stars. It would be nice to have a team like the 04 pistons but what are the odds of getting that type of starting 5 and having them pretty much in the primes of their careers at the same time??

[Paydro70]

I think these are valid points, I will say that when Boston won the championship Garnett wasn't playing at a superstar level. He was still very good, but he wasn't a superster like when he was in his prime. Detroit really didn't have a star, and Hakeem with Houston was great, but I think him winning made his reputation even greater. Also, if you look at Jordan's run with the Bulls, they had the same core guys from when Detroit used to beat them until they won the first ring. Charlotte has a great core, the team's problem vs Orlando was the PG spot the C spot and we needed a 3rd scorer. We found or third scorer in game 4 which was too late, but we didn't get much help elsewhere. So instead of breaking up the core who really did their job well, why not just address the needs of post scoring, and upgrade the point guard role. Even though we got swept by Orlando we still gave them a tough fight. A couple of that series games we lost in the last few minutes. Jax and Crash are as studly as me on the perimeter and they compliment each other well, all they need is a scorer inside and I think this team will get to the eastern conference, at least.

Come on, this is crazy talk. KG finished 3rd in the MVP voting, he was the anchor of an all-time great defensive team (I forget where they actually rank all-time, but it's really, really high) and put up 25 PER. Hakeem won DPOY AND MVP in 1994, obviously before they won the title. And Isiaih Thomas doesn't count as a star?

We won't be winning unless we get a superstar, period.

[Badd_Intentions]

Agreed....it's so much easier to win with a superstar. For one the defense has to pay him extra attention which only gives more looks to your other guys. Not to mention in the playoffs teams are generally going to be playing good defense, you're gonna need a guy to be able to score on a regular basis despite good defense against him.

[ball teacher]

Come on, this is crazy talk. KG finished 3rd in the MVP voting, he was the anchor of an all-time great defensive team (I forget where they actually rank all-time, but it's really, really high) and put up 25 PER. Hakeem won DPOY AND MVP in 1994, obviously before they won the title. And Isiaih Thomas doesn't count as a star?

We won't be winning unless we get a superstar, period.

What I mean about KG is that he was good that year, but I don't recall him putting up career high stats. He finished high in MVP votes because the team was so good and good teams with the best records always have someone in contention to be a MVP, but the bigger story is the whole team was loaded. The Pistons team I was referring to was the the team with Billups, B.Wallace, R. Wallace and so on. They had good players and they beat a team with two superstars. Hakeem was a great player, a hall of famer but his team was loaded also. They had great point guards, three point shooters rebounding big men, they had the whole nine. David Stern has made this league a superstar player first league. To win a championship you need a talented team, not a superstar. Lebron's Cavs got swept by the Spurs in the finals a few years ago the difference was the Spurs had good players on a loaded team, while the Cavs had the one superstar. If the Bobcats gut their core just for one superstar, the team won't be better, they may fill more seats temporarily, but they won't be more of a contender because of it. I'll take a well rounded team full of good players over a team with a superstar and a bunch of Tito's anyday.

[dmutombo321]

Just chiming in here - I've always thought people's citation of the 03-05 pistons to be completely unfounded in discussions like this (i.e. Championship Caliber teams w/o a superstar).

The roster on that Detroit team typifies something I've argued for sometime with respect to over-reliance on stats in general, and to a lesser extent PER, as a sole measure of player's worths w/o proper context.

There are only so many shots to go around, rebounding opportunites to have, etc and when you have a team stacked with star caliber players, some of their numbers are going to suffer as a result. Consequently, people who rely soley on those numbers form perceptions and before you know it, it becomes conventional wisdom that the 03-04 and 04-05 contending Detroit teams had no star caliber players.

Yes, you need stars to compete for Chamionships and those detroit teams were no exception.

I will say that Rasheed Wallace and Billups were both top 5 players at their respective positions at the time and Hamilton was a top 5-7 shooting guard.

Plus, during those to seasons they went to the finals, Ben Wallace was the defensive player of the year and also the best rebounder playing the game.

To make a point, Rasheed averaged approx 14-7 during their championship year. But he was playing next to Ben Wallace who was eating up alot of the rebounds and sharing shots with Billups, Hamilton, and Prince. If you put 03-04 Rasheed Wallace on last years Bobcats roster and plugged him in at PF for 35 mpg, you'd have a 20-10 allstar. Likewise, if you would have switched out Sheed with Tim Duncan on those championship teams, his numbers would likely have appeared equally pedestrian.

This stat depressing phenomenon is going to be displayed like never before with this Heat team next year. All of the big three of Wade, James and Bosh will likely see reductions in their PERs and certainly will in their raw stats. One of the three will probably see a precipitous drop. Of course this in no way means they are any less talented or less impactful on the court.

[fatlever]

i guess the argument with the 04 pistons has to do with them not having a clear offensive alpha dog on that team. you had 3 all-stars caliber offensive guys in billups, sheed and rip and prince who was getting close to becoming an all-star talent. but they didnt really have a true #1 scorer. they had 3 #2 scorers and 5 guys who were fantastic defenders. its definitely the strangest finals winning model in the past 30 years. and its the one team that gives fans of small market teams hope. seeing that it is at least possible to win without a mega scoring stud ala gives us hope.

we were getting pretty close to that model last year, but we fell a little short at 3 of the positions.

billups > felton
rip = jax
prince < wallace
sheed > diaw
wallace > chandler

we were good enough defensively that wallace over chandler wasnt that big of a deal. if we could have replaced diaw or felton with an obvious upgrade, i think our team was looking at making a run deep into the playoffs.

[hotrod]

Don't forget the LB factor. He coached that Detriot team. He also coached a Sixers team with only AI and a bunch of defensive orientated players that lost in the finals. The guy knows how to get the most out of what he has to work with.

Having said that, I think we need a superstar to get to the next level. Don't think LB can do it again here, especially with these teams now stacking rosters.

[Paydro70]

Just chiming in here - I've always thought people's citation of the 03-05 pistons to be completely unfounded in discussions like this (i.e. Championship Caliber teams w/o a superstar).

The roster on that Detroit team typifies something I've argued for sometime with respect to over-reliance on stats in general, and to a lesser extent PER, as a sole measure of player's worths w/o proper context.

There are only so many shots to go around, rebounding opportunites to have, etc and when you have a team stacked with star caliber players, some of their numbers are going to suffer as a result. Consequently, people who rely soley on those numbers form perceptions and before you know it, it becomes conventional wisdom that the 03-04 and 04-05 contending Detroit teams had no star caliber players.

...

This stat depressing phenomenon is going to be displayed like never before with this Heat team next year. All of the big three of Wade, James and Bosh will likely see reductions in their PERs and certainly will in their raw stats. One of the three will probably see a precipitous drop. Of course this in no way means they are any less talented or less impactful on the court.

I don't think anyone has ever claimed the Pistons were a team without stars. Ben Wallace and Billups obviously were. But none of them were SUPERstars. Being top 5 at your position (which is arguable in Chauncey and Sheed's case) is a long way from being top 5 in the league, the way all those other champions were. Every single title team has had a person finish in the top 5 of MVP voting (actually very rarely even below 3) going back to 1980, except the three Pistons teams. That team was definitely unusual for the balanced talent it had, getting 4 "all-star" types rather than 1 or 2 MVP-types.

Obviously you're right that players' stats can go down when they're not asked to shoot as much (or there are fewer boards to go around), but I don't think that really applies to the Pistons players. Who experienced the decline? I guess Sheed did, but he also hit 30 and started to decline off of that. (Unrelated, but he would never have put up 20/10 on the Bobcats, he's never scored 20ppg and he's never even topped 8.5rpg. And those were both done on the Blazers, when he was actually at his peak and not 30).

I'm also not so sure we will see much of a dip in the Miami guys' PER, because nobody else on that team is going to get the ball at all. The big 3 can't shoot quite as much, but they can shoot better, they'll be more likely to get assists passing to each other instead of Mo Williams, and I could also see a bump in rebounding numbers since their frankencenter isn't exactly stellar. Hollinger projected a 5% drop.

[gsw_ftw]

We've heard the rumors about possible deals being made to get CP3 here with or without Melo, and how we'd have to give up Wallace to make the deal. A lineup featuring.......
PG Paul
SG Jax
SF Melo
PF Tyrus
C Okafor
..... looks good on paper, but you never really know how the guys will do as a team. I think the Bobcats have a good core with Wallace, Jax, and Tyrus. The team doesn't need a major overhaul, or major signings to get them to the next level. They just need to bring in quality players to help the core guys get it done. Right now it seems like Jordan's hands are all over this because it's a gamble that's being made, all or nothing like he's trying to go for the homerun instead of getting a nice base hit. This team could be pieced together like the Detroit Piston team that beat the Lakers in the finals a few years ago. They had a team full of good players who knew their roles and played as a unit and they had that great team defense. Charlotte is almost there. We need a good point guard, not a great one just a good player. Calderon would have been fine with me, Livingston if he can stay healthy would be a nice pick, now we need a center, and Emeka Okafor won't cut it. We already lost Chandler, and Theo without knowing who the replacement would be, and IMO if we gambled them away for the chance to get Paul and we don't get him then we lost that deal. Chandler is now a Mav and Theo is with the Lakers, go figure. We've all discussed this topic of who should come and who shouldn't, I just wanted to express my views again that this team was good last year and just need a few adjustments to be even better. Swapping good players for good players does nothing but keep you at the same position we previously were.

who did you give up for those players?

[BobsBuddy]

Who experienced the decline? I guess Sheed did, but he also hit 30 and started to decline off of that. (Unrelated, but he would never have put up 20/10 on the Bobcats, he's never scored 20ppg and he's never even topped 8.5rpg. And those were both done on the Blazers, when he was actually at his peak and not 30).

Those Portland teams were stacked also, just like Detroit. Both years when he led the blazers in scoring, there were 5 other players averaging double figures on the same roster. His scoring total took a hit sharing shots with Steve Smith, Scotty Pippin, Bonzi Wells, Sabonis, Derek Anderson. Plus the likes of Dale Davis, Sabonis, Shawn Kemp, etc were gobbling up part of the rebounding pie.

Averaging over 19ppg on those rosters was quite a feat. You dont think he wouldve mustered over 20ppg playing power forward on a Bobcats team that had oneof the worst offenses in the league?